# Why are Americans...what's the technical term...dumb as shit? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 11, 2012, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-americans-whats-the-technical-term-dumb-as-shit/643756 "2012-12-11T22:10:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-americans-whats-the-technical-term-dumb-as-shit/643756/21 "2012-12-12T01:13:28Z")
> [@cougar58](#): > > Interesting chart on that link. > > I think we should edit the OP to ask “Why are Muslims dumb as shit?” because only two Islamic countries made that list (see link above) and they were close to the bottom. Turkey has a GDP per capita that’s a fifth of the US. Indonesia’s is like a fifteenth. I don’t think there’s any great mystery regarding why poor, populous countries fill out the bottom of the list. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-americans-whats-the-technical-term-dumb-as-shit/643756/22 "2012-12-12T02:18:38Z")
I blame lobbyists. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-americans-whats-the-technical-term-dumb-as-shit/643756/23 "2012-12-12T02:27:08Z")
Bad journalism. They understand what an average is, but not a standard deviation. Also, the US is a very large country. Better to look at state by state numbers. We’re probably weighted down by certain states. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-americans-whats-the-technical-term-dumb-as-shit/643756/24 "2012-12-12T02:30:13Z")
We do lag in some serious issues, usually regarding the social safety net (family/medical leave, universal health care) and investments in the people (affordable education, working public transit, taking climate change seriously, etc). Why we do that, I don’t know. I’d guess religion. For whatever reason we are way more religious than other OECD nations. I thought 2/3 of schools were world class with the other 1/3 being what you find in the third world. People we don’t care about (poor and minorities if we are being honest) do badly but I think the other 2/3 are pretty highly rated. I’ve never been overseas, I have no idea what their media is like. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-americans-whats-the-technical-term-dumb-as-shit/643756/25 "2012-12-12T02:33:47Z")
[Money and God.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=15783807) ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-americans-whats-the-technical-term-dumb-as-shit/643756/26 "2012-12-12T02:34:20Z")
Jeebus, we’re not _dumb._ We’re just unedumicated. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-americans-whats-the-technical-term-dumb-as-shit/643756/27 "2012-12-12T02:34:23Z")
> [@cougar58](#): > > Interesting chart on that link. > > I think we should edit the OP to ask “Why are Muslims dumb as shit?” because only two Islamic countries made that list (see link above) and they were close to the bottom. Islamic countries also lag behind on civil and political rights. [http://www.freedomhouse.org/article/new-study-details-islamic-worlds-democracy-deficit](http://www.freedomhouse.org/article/new-study-details-islamic-worlds-democracy-deficit) > [@](#): > > Of the world’s 192 countries, 121 are electoral democracies. However, only 11 of the 47 nations (23 percent) with an Islamic majority have democratically elected governments. In the non-Islamic world, which comprises 145 states, 110 are electoral democracies (75 percent). Therefore, a non-Islamic state is over three times more likely to be democratic than an Islamic state. None of the 16 Arab states of the Middle East and North Africa is a democracy. > > In addition to a democracy divide, there is a dramatic freedom deficit between majority Islamic countries and the rest of the world. Of the states with an Islamic majority, only one, Mali, is rated Free. Eighteen are rated Partly Free, and 28 are considered Not Free. By contrast, in the non-Islamic world, 85 countries are Free, 40 are Partly Free, and 20 are Not Free. That article is 10 years old, I don’t know if there has been much improvement. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-americans-whats-the-technical-term-dumb-as-shit/643756/28 "2012-12-12T02:40:27Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > My thoughts exactly. > > He does realize that most of the reality shows we have in the US are ripoffs of reality shows from other countries, usually the UK. > > I know some Americans tend to think people in the UK sit around sipping tea, eating crumpets and discussing Shakespeare, but quite a few would rather spend their time watching _The Only Way is Essex_. Right, there was even an Eccleston Doctor Who episode parodying all the dumb reality and game shows (notably Big Brother and The Weakest Link). I also think they have a decent share of vapid celebrities that I’ve heard people complain about, but I’ll stay my tongue there since I can’t name any off the top of my head. > [@Shagnasty](#): > > Many U.S. states have poor public education systems but it isn’t spread evenly. [Massachusetts for example scores not only near at top of U.S. states on the Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA) but ranks in the top 3 for the world behind only Chinese Taipei and Korea and beats all European countries some of which are a similar size](http://educationnext.org/the-international-pisa-test/). Most Massachusetts public schools are good but they still follow the same basic public school model that other states do and use the same textbooks. It isn’t like kids go to school year-round until 9 pm every night like you hear rumored about some other countries. That tells me there isn’t anything wrong with the basic structure of our school curriculum as long as it is taught well and taken seriously by the students. It’s not even even between districts in states, or even within districts. Arizona doesn’t exactly have great public education, but my high school – a PUBLIC (albeit test-in) high school was top 4 in the nation (by Newsweek) last I checked, and when I went there was #1 in AP English and AP US History (I think), and no slouch in most other areas. We shared a building with a school which was just scraping by. > [@](#): > > One argument that is supported by many of the statistics is that the issue is mostly a demographic one. If you [correct for demographic differences between countries, the U.S. as a whole does quite well internationally.](http://super-economy.blogspot.com/2010/12/amazing-truth-about-pisa-scores-usa.html) There are some large minority groups who tend to score so low on the assessment tests, it drags down the whole average. Granted, this is a serious issue on its own and should be addressed but it is different than assuming that most American high school students use all their brain power trying to remember to breathe. My city has a definite de facto segregation between SE vs NW (I think, may be different corners, my point stands), and there tend to be definite differences in test scores on the more minority heavy/poor side of the city vs the rich (granted I question the accuracy, validity, and use of standardizes tests in the first place, but it’s worth noting). ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-americans-whats-the-technical-term-dumb-as-shit/643756/29 "2012-12-12T02:53:26Z")
In my opinion, America has always lagged behind these same countries in these metrics. The difference being, now the average citizen can research these figures relatively easily, and are amazed at the results. Seriously, I completely love and admire the USA, but other countries have always been ahead in education and the sciences. A lot of you folks have been brainwashed into thinking how great the US is, when in fact a lot of other countries are just as good, or better. Now you can actually see for yourselves that the propaganda is not really true. The United States is (or perhaps was) the perfect country for entrepreneurs to start a businesses and grow a business. Your freedoms and tax regulations were enviable. As a country you’ve blazed a trail that other countries followed, but I seriously believe that for a couple of generations the American people believed that democracy and freedoms were indigenous to America, and other countries were repressed and didn’t share these freedoms. I think the Internet, over the years, made a lot of people aware that other democratic countries have really good systems in place; and hell, most of them have gun control, healthcare and educated people. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-americans-whats-the-technical-term-dumb-as-shit/643756/30 "2012-12-12T03:11:59Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Seriously, I completely love and admire the USA, but other countries have always been ahead in education and the sciences. A lot of you folks have been brainwashed into thinking how great the US is, when in fact a lot of other countries are just as good, or better. Now you can actually see for yourselves that the propaganda is not really true. It is true though in important ways. You can’t really speak to the U.S. as whole on this since education is managed at the state level fundamentally but the local level is even more important and the results differ dramatically from among the best in the world to average to bad. Most public schools are quite adequate to great but the bad ones drag the averages way down. That isn’t that important when it comes to producing world-class scientists or business leaders however. There are plenty of those born and raised in U.S. public schools and the talented ones at the top end keep the supply firmly stocked at all times. The end result speaks for itself. Combine that with an insane amount of world-class undergraduate schools and mostly unrivaled graduate schools and I don’t believe you can say that the U.S. has a problem at all on the high end when it comes to advanced science education at all. It is mostly a failure for some demographics who don’t see a need for that type of education in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-americans-whats-the-technical-term-dumb-as-shit/643756/31 "2012-12-12T03:14:40Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > DrFidelius got the reference (but then again, he is a doctor). I thought he was pre-law. Anyways, if one doubts the intelligence of the average American, consider that the typical Yankee is about 20 to 40 points lower on the IQ scale than 90% of the self-reporting members of this message board. Seriously, look around this board, subtract 30 IQ points, and that’s your average American. Reportedly. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-americans-whats-the-technical-term-dumb-as-shit/643756/32 "2012-12-12T03:17:00Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I thought he was pre-law. > > Anyways, if one doubts the intelligence of the average American, consider that the typical Yankee is about 20 to 40 points lower on the IQ scale than 90% of the self-reporting members of this message board. Seriously, look around this board, subtract 30 IQ points, and that’s your average American. Reportedly. There is no way the average American has an IQ of 170. 120 tops. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-americans-whats-the-technical-term-dumb-as-shit/643756/33 "2012-12-12T05:21:05Z")
The US is a continental sized nation with a huge population. If you want to make a meaningful comparison between the US and other countries then you need to factor that in. Compare the US to the entire EU and I am pretty confident we’ll come out pretty well. Unless they are collectively dumb as shit as well. 😉 I think that people in this country just like to focus on how bad it is here, and education is one of the things they always focus on, without understanding the big picture or how really big we are compared to places like France or the UK. ---
**Author:** ![magnusblitz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@magnusblitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magnusblitz)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-americans-whats-the-technical-term-dumb-as-shit/643756/34 "2012-12-12T07:56:10Z")
As others have pointed out - we’re not. The reason is that America is a pretty large and non-homogenous country, in terms of education/money/etc. There are plenty of very intelligent, well-educated Americans… and plenty of idiots who might as well be illiterate and consume no media beyond reality TV and sports. That amount of difference just doesn’t exist in countries like Sweden, Japan, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Imasquare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Imasquare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Imasquare)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-americans-whats-the-technical-term-dumb-as-shit/643756/35 "2012-12-12T08:13:05Z")
> [@sweeteviljesus](#): > > When you scrub disadvantaged kids from the results, how does the US rate against other nations? Well in that case you would also have to exclude disadvantaged kids from other nations as well. ---
**Author:** ![Imasquare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Imasquare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Imasquare)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-americans-whats-the-technical-term-dumb-as-shit/643756/36 "2012-12-12T08:18:28Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Studies consistently show America lags behind most of the developed world in math, reading and the sciences. That means we are only ahead of countries that haven’t enough resources to actually build schools. > > A casual look at American television provides a wide range of reality shows about nouveau-riche morons, drunken idiots and competitions between attractive egomaniacs scrambling for cash. > > The Internet (present company excluded) has enabled millions of Americans to call each other f@g! and 100ser over topics they don’t understand > > Anyone who went to school in the US knows the respect those who demonstrate higher intellect receive. > > We have the best colleges in the world but most students use them to throw a 4 year drunken frat party. > The meme of Americans being loud, anti-intellectual, lazy and stupid has been around for a long time, but now it seems that quantifyable data is starting to validate it. How did a country that half a century ago put a man on Mars and defeated the Germans after they bombed Pearl Harbor become a country where the greatest minds figure out new ways to stuff tacos into pizzas? Mars? In my travels which include the US, the UK, Australia, New Zealand, South Korea, Russia and Siberia I have not noticed the people in any of those countries being any more or less intelligent than the others. That includes Americans. I came accross loud obnoxious individuals in each of these countries and can attest to a disrespect toward education and intellectualism in Australia, the UK, and New Zealand. As well as the USA. Also, in my opinion Americans are far more articulate than other English speakers, more so than the English. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-americans-whats-the-technical-term-dumb-as-shit/643756/37 "2012-12-12T15:00:20Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > We do lag in some serious issues, usually regarding the social safety net (family/medical leave, universal health care) and investments in the people (affordable education, working public transit, taking climate change seriously, etc). Why we do that, I don’t know. I’d guess religion. For whatever reason we are way more religious than other OECD nations. The fact that we as a country are so religious seems pretty dumb to me. I don’t think it’s so much religion as it is the American mythos of the industrious entrepreneur carving out a success through his own hard work. I think that’s a different attitude from Europeans who have more of an expectation that their government should take care of them. It’s an attitude that is a direct result of how our countries were formed. The US was basically a giant startup venture while the European countries evolved over thousands of years of rule by various empires and monarchs. Ergo Europeans don’t mind paying higher taxes for awesome rail service and universal health care while Americans think that if you can’t afford health care, you aren’t working hard enough. > [@Tiny anomalies/artifacts found on the ground in Apollo photos](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiny-anomalies-artifacts-found-on-the-ground-in-apollo-photos/76835/389): > > I’ve never been overseas, I have no idea what their media is like. When I was in Italy, it seemed like Sex and the City and Gilmore Girls were constantly on TV. Except they call ‘Gilmore Girls’ ‘Una Mamma per Amica’. > [@Shagnasty](#): > > There is no way the average American has an IQ of 170. 120 tops. [According to this it’s 98.](http://www.statisticbrain.com/countries-with-the-highest-lowest-average-iq/) IQ tests for a population are scored so that the mean is 100. I wouldn’t expect the average for any country to be much higher or lower. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-americans-whats-the-technical-term-dumb-as-shit/643756/38 "2012-12-12T15:03:30Z")
I just saw Ravenman’s post.:smack: Funny. ---
**Author:** ![CoastalMaineiac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@CoastalMaineiac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoastalMaineiac)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-americans-whats-the-technical-term-dumb-as-shit/643756/39 "2012-12-12T15:11:47Z")
Stupidity is a human phenomenon, not just American. I’m pretty sure any extraterrestrial beings that came to earth in search of intelligent life would turn around in disappointment. Either that, or they’d look at our cats and dogs as being the intelligent beings–after all, who cleans up after whom? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-americans-whats-the-technical-term-dumb-as-shit/643756/40 "2012-12-12T15:18:29Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > In my opinion, America has always lagged behind these same countries in these metrics. The difference being, now the average citizen can research these figures relatively easily, and are amazed at the results. The average citizen has always been able to look at this sort of data. The idea that American students once excelled but now lag behind their peers in Europe and Asia - and the corresponding belief that Something Must Be Done - has been around [pretty much for ever](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Nation_at_Risk). It’s like the bizarre belief that kids today are the first generation that doesn’t listen to their parents and spend all their time listening to music and having drunken sex: completely untrue, yet ubiquitous. American kids have always lagged behind their peers. Our technological edge has always been based on poaching the kids who prop up the other countries’ scores. Mostly with images of cheerleaders and restaurants shaped like food, I expect. Somebody points this out in every education thread, and it’s invariably ignored. Yes, our high school graduates are dumber than pig dribble. No, it’s not an educational crisis: it’s a _good thing_. 80 years ago, those same kids [didn’t go to high school at all](http://www.familyfacts.org/charts/535/since-1970-the-high-school-graduation-rate-for-17-year-olds-has-remained-flat). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-americans-whats-the-technical-term-dumb-as-shit/643756.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-americans-whats-the-technical-term-dumb-as-shit/643756.md?page=3)