# Why are Apple computers so expensive ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 22, 2014, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-apple-computers-so-expensive/707964 "2014-12-22T23:06:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2014, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-apple-computers-so-expensive/707964/61 "2014-12-26T19:11:26Z")
> [@Francis\_Vaughan](#): > > Viruses and malware could come directly in an email, and infect you by just reading the email or inserting the floppy. Macs and PCs were equally vulnerable, simply because they were utterly open. I do not believe this is strictly correct. Apple system programmers seemed to have put a lot of effort into designing the original versions of Mac OS, it did not have the same kind of vulnerabilities as Windows. Processes looked at what they were handling, rather than just trusting it to be correct. Windows seems to have been built with a more seat-of-the-pants programming style that started out very porous and got a lot of patches to fix vulnerabilities as they turned up. Making the system secure has not entirely been a matter of switching from open memory to supervised layers of confined address spaces, that just makes the job a lot easier and protects the greater system from localized crashes. > [@scr4](#): > > iOS is a closed ecosystem. OSX is not. Nitpick: iOS _is_ OS X, it just has a different UI. I would not be surprised to see Apple unify them completely and start selling hybrid core Intel/ARM machines in the future, eventually closing off the “Hackintosh” avenue for OS X. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2014, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-apple-computers-so-expensive/707964/62 "2014-12-26T19:22:43Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > This isn’t true. They design the internal layout of their devices, obviously, and they sometimes integrate CPUs and GPUs into a single modular unit, but the actual design work for the processors is done by companies like ARM and nvidia. Apple does indeed design chips, for a few years now. They’ve rapidly built up chip design capabilities by hiring many senior designers from places like AMD and IBM. Apple’s A7 and forward are custom cpu designs, and their A8X gpu has some customizations. Recently they were rumored to be looking to partner in a fab, although I believe that one did not materialize. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2014, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-apple-computers-so-expensive/707964/63 "2014-12-26T19:24:47Z")
> [@Francis\_Vaughan](#): > > Once you get into a “build your own” regime you are not comparing any brands at all. If you work for a company and you are building computers from parts you are being disingenuous if you do not include your wages in the cost of the build. Not just the build, but the customer support and tech support. When you buy a system and it doesn’t work, you just send it back. When you build a system and it doesn’t work, you need to troubleshoot it yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2014, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-apple-computers-so-expensive/707964/64 "2014-12-26T21:12:51Z")
Yeah, I built my own computer from parts once. It was a valuable experience, I proved that I could do it, and it built character. And like most valuable experiences that build character, I never want to do it again. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2014, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-apple-computers-so-expensive/707964/65 "2014-12-26T21:26:34Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Nitpick: iOS _is_ OS X, it just has a different UI. I would not be surprised to see Apple unify them completely and start selling hybrid core Intel/ARM machines in the future, eventually closing off the “Hackintosh” avenue for OS X. Nitpick: iOS devices and OSX run Darwin as the underlying operating system. The user interface is what makes it iOS or OSX. And that user interface is no small part of the equation. > **[Darwin (operating system)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_(operating_system))** > > Darwin is the core Unix-like operating system of macOS, iOS, watchOS, tvOS, iPadOS, audioOS, visionOS, and bridgeOS. It previously existed as an independent open-source operating system, first released by Apple Inc. in 2000. It is composed of code derived from NeXTSTEP, FreeBSD, other BSD operating systems, Mach, and other free software projects' code, as well as code developed by Apple. Darwin's unofficial mascot is Hexley the Platypus. > Darwin is mostly POSIX-compatible, but has never, by its... ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2014, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-apple-computers-so-expensive/707964/66 "2014-12-26T22:04:46Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > A year ago I looked for the fastest laptop with \>14" display and \<5 lb weight, at any cost. The Macbook Pro was the only \<5 lb laptop that had a quad-core i7 processor. Unfortunately this is a work PC and I needed several Windows-only software, so I had to settle for an HP Zbook-14 which only has a dual-core i7 chip. Today I could get a Dell M3800 or XPS-15 with a quad-core i7 chip, but it would cost as much as a comparable Macbook Pro. And the Mac would be better in several important respects - for example, it has a much smaller and lighter AC adapter. Why didn’t you get the Mac and run Windows on it natively with Bootcamp or through Parallels or the like? The Windows-purchase tax? Too small a hard drive for both OSs and the required Windows apps? Signed, Curious ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2014, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-apple-computers-so-expensive/707964/67 "2014-12-27T05:04:40Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > What mac hardware did PC adopt? The only thing I can think about mac users pointing to as an example is firewire, which isn’t an Apple invention and is an industry standard, and that flopped, and it was never widely adopted. Some of the following things actually debuted on the Mac; many others became standards on the Mac while being rarely encountered options on the PC until quite some time later: 3.5" floppy disk raster-based (i.e., pixel-based) instead of character-based displays the mouse audio output and recording, I think?\* hardware support for multiple displays? \*\* CD-ROM drives as standard equipment ability to boot from multiple / alternative devices & volumes WiFi - [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_card): Sound cards for computers compatible with the IBM PC were very uncommon until 1988, which left the single internal PC speaker as the only way early PC software could produce sound and music.[2] The speaker hardware was typically limited to square waves, which fit the common nickname of “beeper”. The resulting sound was generally described as “beeps and boops”. The Mac was outclassed by the Amiga but it did have 8 bit sound in and sound out. Steve Jobs rather famously had the Mac introduce itself—speaking, i.e., text to speech with audio out—at the 1984 shareholders’ meeting. \*\* I’m assuming that the inability of early Windows PCs to support multiple screen display was not just the lack of software. Could be wrong about that. Macs starting with the Mac II would let you hook 2, 3, or more screens and use them as an extended display space. ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2014, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-apple-computers-so-expensive/707964/68 "2014-12-27T06:26:52Z")
[Firewire absolutely was an Apple invention](http://1394ta.org/about/). They opened the specification and had it standardised as IEEE 1394, but the actual protocol was all theirs. What killed it was issues with the cost and licence fees. Firewire is a much more powerful system than USB, but this capability is only used in a limited set of high end applications, so eventually the cheaper and less capable USB edged it out. Thunderbolt is the new Firewire, sadly in more than a technical sense. Apple and Intel jointly developed it, with Apple contributing all the hot connect and config protocols from Firewire. Apple were the first company to introduce USB devices - keyboard and mouse initially. This was on the first iMac. This was credited with kick starting USB in the market, where the old PS2 mouse and keyboard was otherwise ubiquitous. Apple were also the first to drop devices. Dropping floppy drives was widely criticised, but Steve was right. They had had their day. They have now almost totally dropped CD drives, and have been proved correct again. Apple brought the affordable postscript capable laser printer to market way ahead of anyone else. They pretty much brought about Adobe’s success in the desktop publishing market. Indeed Apple pretty much brought desktop publishing about. They leveraged technology from Xerox, Canon, and HP (via Adobe) but had the vision, the harware and the software to make good on the possibility. Apple were one of the first with WiFi capable computers. Apple have never been a bleeding edge company, you can always point to some other small niche player that was working on the technology (and probably going broke trying to push it) but Apple will stay abreast of technological developments and will bring them to market as soon as they are happy that the technology is solid. This typically puts them ahead of the mainstream brands. To be snarky, Microsoft pretty much never innovated anything. The only products that are any good they bought. Indeed almost all their products they bought in, including the dud ones. Microsoft Word is Xerox, and Excel they bought. (Excel being the only good thing they sell.) NT - aka the current operating system, was stolen from DEC, and anyone who has used VMS will instantly recognise it. So much so that you can program in the Windows OS almost without bothering with the manuals if you have enough VMS experience. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2014, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-apple-computers-so-expensive/707964/69 "2014-12-27T06:36:06Z")
> [@](#): > > To be snarky, Microsoft pretty much never innovated anything. The only products that are any good they bought. Mostly, yeah. I do give them credit for Excel, which honest to God, I believe was developed in-house. ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2014, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-apple-computers-so-expensive/707964/70 "2014-12-27T06:56:17Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Mostly, yeah. I do give them credit for Excel, which honest to God, I believe was developed in-house. Yup, you are correct. In house end to end. What is perhaps interesting is that Excel was initially only available for Macs, and it took two years for them to get a Windows version (or perhaps get Windows working to the point where Excel would work). ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2014, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-apple-computers-so-expensive/707964/71 "2014-12-27T07:15:00Z")
Those early Macs put the weight of the system on the CPU. Even the mouse cursor was drawn pixel-by-pixel, not some kind of hardware-generated sprite thing. Even in the late 90s, I had a single-core 7500 with a 200mhz G3 and the system did fine without a graphics card. It handled VBR mp3s and played multiple audio layers at once all via the CPU. I am not sure whether it was merely good coding or having a more powerful processor or a combination of the two but that thing could keep up. ---
**Author:** ![davida03801](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5e925/32.png) [@davida03801](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davida03801)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2014, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-apple-computers-so-expensive/707964/72 "2014-12-27T12:32:09Z")
The market will bear the price. Please take Econ 101, the answer lies within. ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2014, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-apple-computers-so-expensive/707964/73 "2014-12-27T14:01:56Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Those early Macs put the weight of the system on the CPU. Even the mouse cursor was drawn pixel-by-pixel, not some kind of hardware-generated sprite thing. Even in the late 90s, I had a single-core 7500 with a 200mhz G3 and the system did fine without a graphics card. It handled VBR mp3s and played multiple audio layers at once all via the CPU. I am not sure whether it was merely good coding or having a more powerful processor or a combination of the two but that thing could keep up. There were a mix of technologies on the first Macs. But probably the critical thing to realise is that the idea of a windows and mouse based GUI was core to the design of the machine from the ground up. Jobs was inspired by the D machines at Xerox, and this vision directly drove the design. There was some level of custom hardware, there was a custom IC that Steve Wozniac was responsible for (The Integrated Wozniac Machine) which was responsibe for controlling the floppy drive. But indeed, the GUI was welded into the OS, to the extent that the retrace time of the CRT scan was used to interrupt the CPU, and it was in this time period that flicker free updates to the display could be done. Code to manage the display had to be written to run in response to this interrupt, and had to complete before the next line started - otherwise the screen would flicker. Games and the basic GUI all used this programming model. There was no pre-emptive multi-tasking - everything was a slave to the video timing. But with an 8MHz CPU and 128k of memory this machine was a revelation. It wasn’t until you got at least 512k or 1M of memory that it became really useful, but it delivered the future at least five years ahead of when it would otherwise have arrived. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2014, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-apple-computers-so-expensive/707964/74 "2014-12-27T14:21:15Z")
> [@davida03801](#): > > The market will bear the price. > Please take Econ 101, the answer lies within. I think we all understand that. The question is, why does the market bear a higher price for this specific item? (Though before we get there, we need to establish whether the price is indeed higher.) ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2014, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-apple-computers-so-expensive/707964/75 "2014-12-27T19:07:13Z")
> [@Francis\_Vaughan](#): > > There were a mix of technologies on the first Macs. But probably the critical thing to realise is that the idea of a windows and mouse based GUI was core to the design of the machine from the ground up. Jobs was inspired by the D machines at Xerox, and this vision directly drove the design. There was some level of custom hardware, there was a custom IC that Steve Wozniac was responsible for (The Integrated Wozniac Machine) which was responsibe for controlling the floppy drive. But indeed, the GUI was welded into the OS, to the extent that the retrace time of the CRT scan was used to interrupt the CPU, and it was in this time period that flicker free updates to the display could be done. Code to manage the display had to be written to run in response to this interrupt, and had to complete before the next line started - otherwise the screen would flicker. Games and the basic GUI all used this programming model. There was no pre-emptive multi-tasking - everything was a slave to the video timing. But with an 8MHz CPU and 128k of memory this machine was a revelation. It wasn’t until you got at least 512k or 1M of memory that it became really useful, but it delivered the future at least five years ahead of when it would otherwise have arrived. I don’t know about that. The Amiga arrived just over a year later with several improvements, including better graphics, better sound and preemptive multitasking. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2014, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-apple-computers-so-expensive/707964/76 "2014-12-27T19:53:58Z")
The Amiga was a platform I wish I’d had more experience of back when it was extant. It certainly had a powerful effect on both Mac and PC, although a lot of it was indirect. I’ve often wondered how Macs, PCs, and Amigas would be different today if Commodore Inc had been remotely competent at promoting what they had. All in all, I think the trajectory of most Amiga-centric capabilities was that the Mac platform copied it and popularized it, and then Windows PCs followed behind somewhat later; or else it languished and never got taken up by either platform. ---
**Author:** ![davida03801](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5e925/32.png) [@davida03801](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davida03801)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-apple-computers-so-expensive/707964/77 "2014-12-28T11:30:34Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > I think we all understand that. The question is, why does the market bear a higher price for this specific item? (Though before we get there, we need to establish whether the price is indeed higher.) Actually not all understand that, and you see that often here, but this is an aside. The reason Mac Pros have a higher price is that you have one company producing a product that is highly desired. For Mac Pros there is only one set of options and those are the ones Apple chooses to provide. If I choose to purchase a PC type of computer I can go to Best Buy and see multiple options and choices from a variety of manufactures that are competing against one another. Therefore the prices are lower. No such luck in the Apple world. In the computer world Apple has found a way to build a niche position, and not allow others entry. Enviable position to have. Of course the prices is higher. If the price is indeed higher due to performance issues, I’ll leave that to others. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-apple-computers-so-expensive/707964.md?page=3)