# Why are Cantonese and Mandarin considered seperate languages or dialects **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 22, 2009, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-cantonese-and-mandarin-considered-seperate-languages-or-dialects/503839 "2009-07-22T07:24:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-cantonese-and-mandarin-considered-seperate-languages-or-dialects/503839/21 "2009-07-22T18:10:42Z")
I recall reading somewhere that one can tell where in China the proprietors of a Chinese restaurant (or their family) came from by what name they give to General Gao/Tso/Tsao/Zhao’s chicken. Is there any truth to that, and if so, do these differences in transliteration track the language differences set forth in this thread? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-cantonese-and-mandarin-considered-seperate-languages-or-dialects/503839/22 "2009-07-22T18:31:24Z")
> [@Cosmic Relief](#): > > Yes, actually they are quite different. The written language is very similar and there will be some degree of comprehension in either direction. However, spoken Portuguese uses a lot of elision like French(at least to my ear), so a Spanish-only speaker will understand almost no Portuguese spoken at natural speed outside the classroom. A Lusophone however will often be very successful in understanding spoken Spanish or Italian. Funny, whenever I hear Portuguese, it sounds like Spanish being spoken with a heavy French accent. I recognize a word or two, but not much. I wonder if it’s relatively easy for a native Spanish speaker to acclimate to the accent difference in a relatively short period of time. > [@](#): > > I recently learned that the whole Iberian peninsula is one long language continuum with Spanish at one end, Portuguese at the other end, and dozens of distinct languages in between. Neighboring languages can understand one another, but the intelligibility drops off with distance across the continuum. Probably I’ve oversimplified, but you get the idea. It’s really fascinating. I don’t know if you can put Castillian at one end. Maybe Catalan would be a better pick, if you insist on a linear continuum. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-cantonese-and-mandarin-considered-seperate-languages-or-dialects/503839/23 "2009-07-22T18:42:27Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > What about, say, Spanish and Portugese? Are those actually any more different than, say, Spanish Spanish and Mexican Spanish? A better example (from what I hear) would probably be German and Dutch or, failing that, Swedish and Norwegian which from what I’ve been told are mutually intelligible enough to, indeed, be considered dialects by some linguists. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-cantonese-and-mandarin-considered-seperate-languages-or-dialects/503839/24 "2009-07-22T19:07:36Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Funny, whenever I hear Portuguese, it sounds like Spanish being spoken with a heavy French accent. I recognize a word or two, but not much. I wonder if it’s relatively easy for a native Spanish speaker to acclimate to the accent difference in a relatively short period of time. I think any Spanish speaker, native or not, quickly picks up the vocalized consonants in Portuguese (‘el’ becomes ‘o’, ‘las’ becomes ‘as’) and some of the other changes. At least for isolated words, that is. I quickly got used to converting these in my head such that I was able to read fluently and understand many words spoken in isolation. But when you throw in the French-like elision, the clipping of some words, the slang, and the idioms, it really gets difficult and requires a lot of practice. No doubt that Spanish speakers learn to understand Portuguese faster than a non-Spanish-speakers, and perhaps a native speaker might have even greater advantage due to lifetime immersion in Latin-Iberian language and culture. But it’s definitely more difficult than just acclimating oneself to an accent. ---
**Author:** ![Spiff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiff/32/9852_2.png) [@Spiff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiff)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-cantonese-and-mandarin-considered-seperate-languages-or-dialects/503839/25 "2009-07-22T20:12:44Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Italians and Spaniards can generally make themselves understood to each other if they try. This is a correct statement, based on my many experiences in traveling in both countries. In my second-to-last visit to Italy in 2005, I stayed at a B & B in Bergamo, where I witnessed a Spanish couple having a lengthy conversation over breakfast with our Italian hosts. The Spaniards would speak Spanish, and the hosts would reply in Italian … and the conversation was quite brisk, with very high comprehensin on both sides, as far as I could tell. Obviously, both languages are Latin-based romance languages, so they share many root words. But both also follow the “pronounce every letter” rule, have similar rules of adjective placement, and have somewhat similar verb endings and tense construction. All of this adds tremendously to the mutually understandable factor. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-cantonese-and-mandarin-considered-seperate-languages-or-dialects/503839/26 "2009-07-22T21:19:01Z")
> [@](#): > > In my second-to-last visit to Italy in 2005, I stayed at a B & B in Bergamo, where I witnessed a Spanish couple having a lengthy conversation over breakfast with our Italian hosts. The Spaniards would speak Spanish, and the hosts would reply in Italian … and the conversation was quite brisk, with very high comprehensin on both sides, as far as I could tell. Come to think of it, I’ve witnessed similar conversations in Russian and Ukrainian, though I confess I know neither, so can’t say just how smooth the conversation was. ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-cantonese-and-mandarin-considered-seperate-languages-or-dialects/503839/27 "2009-07-22T22:45:12Z")
A lot of languages are politics. We now have Serbian, Montenigrin, Bosnian and Croatian where 20 years ago it was one language. Some “dialects” of Italian are further from each other than Spanish is from Portuguese. Yiddish and German, as well as Dutch and Afrikaans are close enough that one speaker can understand another. Yet since each has a standard form they are considered four languages. To me it’s kind of like saying Jamaican English is different from American English. Well as long as a Jaimacan speaks English slow I understand him well. Find an interview of Scottish singer Sheena Easton when she first started out in 1980, you can barely understand a word she says, but she’s still speaking English. So you have to think of the Chinese sort of like that. If I can’t understand Sheena Easton but when she writes something out I can, that’s the same thing. So if a Mandarin can’t understand a Cantonese speaker but when one of them writes it out they can understand, some people call it a “dialect” based on that. I admit that’s stretching it a LOT, to say the least, but that is how they are viewing it. ---
**Author:** ![kitemaker\_chuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a88e4f/32.png) [@kitemaker\_chuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kitemaker_chuck)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-cantonese-and-mandarin-considered-seperate-languages-or-dialects/503839/28 "2009-07-22T22:56:36Z")
I can’t quite remember where I read this about spoken Portuguese, but it said something to the effect that Portuguese sounds like a drunk Frenchman trying to speak Spanish. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-cantonese-and-mandarin-considered-seperate-languages-or-dialects/503839/29 "2009-07-23T00:11:43Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > Germans can’t understand Swiss German, which varies a lot in dialects throughout Swiss German-speaking Switzerland. I’d love to qualify this answer. Germans can’t understand some dialects of Swiss-German, the more urban ones are understandable. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-cantonese-and-mandarin-considered-seperate-languages-or-dialects/503839/30 "2009-07-23T00:21:09Z")
Mandarin and Cantonese are further from each other than standard American English and the sort of Scots English that Sheena Easton spoke. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-cantonese-and-mandarin-considered-seperate-languages-or-dialects/503839/31 "2009-07-23T23:21:03Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > I recall reading somewhere that one can tell where in China the proprietors of a Chinese restaurant (or their family) came from by what name they give to General Gao/Tso/Tsao/Zhao’s chicken. Is there any truth to that, and if so, do these differences in transliteration track the language differences set forth in this thread? Sure, if it’s in a romanization system. One can spot a mile away a Taiwanese, Honky or Mainlander just by how they spell there name in romanization. Singaporean, Malaysian Chinese gets harder because they don’t usually use a standardized romanization system, but you can often tell it’s a Chinese from SE Asia. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-cantonese-and-mandarin-considered-seperate-languages-or-dialects/503839/32 "2009-07-24T01:34:32Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Come to think of it, I’ve witnessed similar conversations in Russian and Ukrainian, though I confess I know neither, so can’t say just how smooth the conversation was. Not surprisingly, the closer to Russia you get in Ukraine, the more mutual intelligibility there is. ---
**Author:** ![mlai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@mlai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlai)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-cantonese-and-mandarin-considered-seperate-languages-or-dialects/503839/33 "2009-07-24T07:01:59Z")
Just to clarify how different Cantonese is from Mandarin, here’s how you would ask where Cecil is in both. Mandarin: Cecil zai nali? Cantonese: Cecil hai bindo? I also remember the words for “what?” in Mandarin and Cantonese respectively are “Shenme?” and something like “Mutt yeh?” ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-cantonese-and-mandarin-considered-seperate-languages-or-dialects/503839/34 "2009-07-24T07:25:22Z")
I only know a few words of Taiwanese: “Have you eaten?” Mandarin: “Nee chirh bao luh mah?” Taiwanese: “Li jia bah bey?” “Hold on a moment” (when handing the phone to someone) Mandarin: “Nee shaow dung yee shyiahh” Taiwanese: “Li shyioww dung chee lay” ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-cantonese-and-mandarin-considered-seperate-languages-or-dialects/503839/35 "2009-07-24T09:35:07Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > The government favors - indeed, imposes - Mandarin. Everyone is required to learn Mandarin, from Beijing to Guangdong (“Canton”) to Tibet to Xinjiang - though how well people in far-flung reaches speak it is variable. Then people will speak their own dialect too. And often one or two other dialects, either due to geography or ancestry. > > While there are some overlaps (think Italian vs Spanish), there are also some fundamentals that are mutually unintelligible. > > E.g.: > > Cantonese for “one two three” is “yat **yi** sam”. > Mandarin for “one two three” is “ **yi** ar san”. For Mandarin the correct hanyu pin yin is yi **er** san ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-cantonese-and-mandarin-considered-seperate-languages-or-dialects/503839/36 "2009-07-24T09:39:51Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > For Mandarin the correct hanyu pin yin is yi **er** san Thanks for the correction. I learned Cantonese, and am learning Mandarin, aurally, so I’m not 100% on the ‘correct’ transliterations. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-cantonese-and-mandarin-considered-seperate-languages-or-dialects/503839/37 "2009-07-24T16:34:23Z")
So if you were looking to learn a Chinese language (say, for visiting China from the US, or speaking to Chinese immigrants to the US) are you better off picking Mandarin or Cantonese? ---
**Author:** ![BobArrgh](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobarrgh/32/2881_2.png) [@BobArrgh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobArrgh)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-cantonese-and-mandarin-considered-seperate-languages-or-dialects/503839/38 "2009-07-24T17:18:50Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > Sure, if it’s in a romanization system. One can spot a mile away a Taiwanese, Honky or Mainlander just by how they spell there name in romanization. Singaporean, Malaysian Chinese gets harder because they don’t usually use a standardized romanization system, but you can often tell it’s a Chinese from SE Asia. I have to say that this is the first time I have ever seen the word “Honky” to describe a person of Chinese ancestry. I always thought it was used to describe Caucasians. Am I correct in assuming that, in this context, “Honky” refers to someone from Hong Kong? ---
**Author:** ![Waffle\_Decider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/77aa72/32.png) [@Waffle\_Decider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waffle_Decider)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-cantonese-and-mandarin-considered-seperate-languages-or-dialects/503839/39 "2009-07-24T18:39:06Z")
> [@toadspittle](#): > > So if you were looking to learn a Chinese language (say, for visiting China from the US, or speaking to Chinese immigrants to the US) are you better off picking Mandarin or Cantonese? Mandarin will definitely be more useful for visiting China. A lot of people in China can at least half-ass understand Mandarin, even if they cannot speak it themselves. Cantonese will really only be useful in Hong Kong and the Chinatown of the US (and Canada, or the UK, etc). ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-cantonese-and-mandarin-considered-seperate-languages-or-dialects/503839/40 "2009-07-25T13:16:55Z")
> [@BobArrgh](#): > > I have to say that this is the first time I have ever seen the word “Honky” to describe a person of Chinese ancestry. I always thought it was used to describe Caucasians. Am I correct in assuming that, in this context, “Honky” refers to someone from Hong Kong? Yes. It’s a common term amongst English speakers living in east Asia. I would spell it “Hongky” myself to avoid confusion. Definitely learn Mandarin, **toadspittle**. You can get by with Cantonese in southern China and in some Chinese areas of the diaspora (Malaysia, Vietnam, Thailand, a little bit in Singapore, Hong Kong - though you don’t really need it there as most people speak English - and most western Chinatowns), but for the rest of the Chinese world, Mandarin is the way to go. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-cantonese-and-mandarin-considered-seperate-languages-or-dialects/503839.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-cantonese-and-mandarin-considered-seperate-languages-or-dialects/503839.md?page=3)