# Why are Cantonese and Mandarin considered seperate languages or dialects **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 22, 2009, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-cantonese-and-mandarin-considered-seperate-languages-or-dialects/503839 "2009-07-22T07:24:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-cantonese-and-mandarin-considered-seperate-languages-or-dialects/503839/41 "2009-07-26T12:00:09Z")
> [@Cosmic Relief](#): > > Yes, actually they are quite different. The written language is very similar and there will be some degree of comprehension in either direction. However, spoken Portuguese uses a lot of elision like French(at least to my ear), so a Spanish-only speaker will understand almost no Portuguese spoken at natural speed outside the classroom. A Lusophone however will often be very successful in understanding spoken Spanish or Italian. > > I recently learned that the whole Iberian peninsula is one long language continuum with Spanish at one end, Portuguese at the other end, and dozens of distinct languages in between. Neighboring languages can understand one another, but the intelligibility drops off with distance across the continuum. Probably I’ve oversimplified, but you get the idea. It’s really fascinating. A Portugese friend told me that he can understand Spanish speakers but it sounds to him like they are speaking with a mouth full of bubblegum. ---
**Author:** ![Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f08c70/32.png) [@Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crowbar_of_Irony_3)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-cantonese-and-mandarin-considered-seperate-languages-or-dialects/503839/42 "2009-07-26T18:36:22Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > I only know a few words of Taiwanese: > > “Have you eaten?” > Mandarin: “Nee chirh bao luh mah?” > Taiwanese: “Li jia bah bey?” > > “Hold on a moment” (when handing the phone to someone) > Mandarin: “Nee shaow dung yee shyiahh” > Taiwanese: “Li shyioww dung chee lay” That sounds like the Hokkien ‘dialect’ to me. If you are visiting China or intend to work there, learn Mandarin, it’s the official language. If it’s Hong Kong, then Cantonese. ---
**Author:** ![Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f08c70/32.png) [@Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crowbar_of_Irony_3)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-cantonese-and-mandarin-considered-seperate-languages-or-dialects/503839/43 "2009-07-26T18:37:40Z")
> [@BobArrgh](#): > > I have to say that this is the first time I have ever seen the word “Honky” to describe a person of Chinese ancestry. I always thought it was used to describe Caucasians. Am I correct in assuming that, in this context, “Honky” refers to someone from Hong Kong? Yep, this is a kind of ‘short-hand’ for ‘he sounds like he’s from Hong Kong", or "looks like a Hong Konger’ ---
**Author:** ![Waffle\_Decider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/77aa72/32.png) [@Waffle\_Decider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waffle_Decider)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-cantonese-and-mandarin-considered-seperate-languages-or-dialects/503839/44 "2009-07-26T20:28:15Z")
> [@CrazyChop](#): > > That sounds like the Hokkien ‘dialect’ to me. That’s not surprising. Both Hokkien and Taiwanese are just dialects of the Min Nan language. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-cantonese-and-mandarin-considered-seperate-languages-or-dialects/503839/45 "2009-07-26T20:36:46Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > A Portugese friend told me that he can understand Spanish speakers but it sounds to him like they are speaking with a mouth full of bubblegum. Heh: coincidentally, after I first went to Portugal I said Portuguese sounded like drunk Irish people speaking Spanish with a Russian accent. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-cantonese-and-mandarin-considered-seperate-languages-or-dialects/503839/46 "2009-07-26T21:03:49Z")
Indeed, as you can see: [http://www.ethnologue.com/show\_language.asp?code=nan](http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=nan) Min Nan has the following six main dialects: Xiamen, Leizhou, Chao-Shan, Hainan, Longdu, and Zhenan Min Xiamen has two subdialects: Amoy and Fujian It appears that Hokkien and Taiwanese are either just other names for Fujian or else they are sub-subdialects of Fujian. If I read the entry correctly, Taiwanese itself has two sub-sub-subdialects: Sanso and Chaenzo ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-cantonese-and-mandarin-considered-seperate-languages-or-dialects/503839/47 "2009-07-27T05:12:07Z")
Taiwanese in the north and south part of Taiwan can understand each other, but claim that it’s really obvious who is from where. And it’s more or less mutually intelligible. I think the Taiwanese and Xiamen (?) dialects are also mutually comprehensible. (My own knowledge of Taiwanese is limited to a few phrases and a fair amount of swear words). It has also been explained to me that Chiu Chou dialect also has Min Nan roots. I had a roommate who was Malaysian Chinese whose parents had come from Fujian. They spoke something that sounded completely different to Taiwanese to my ears. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-cantonese-and-mandarin-considered-seperate-languages-or-dialects/503839/48 "2009-07-27T05:21:24Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > It appears that Hokkien and Taiwanese are either just other names for Fujian or else they are sub-subdialects of Fujian. Taiwanese (the dialect) also picked up quite a bit of vocabulary from Japanese, which I’m pretty sure was never introduced into its mainland counterparts. E.g., old(er) man = _ojisan_; old(er) woman = _obasan_. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-cantonese-and-mandarin-considered-seperate-languages-or-dialects/503839/49 "2009-07-27T12:01:48Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > Taiwanese (the dialect) also picked up quite a bit of vocabulary from Japanese, which I’m pretty sure was never introduced into its mainland counterparts. > > E.g., old(er) man = _ojisan_; old(er) woman = _obasan_. How much has survived into the younger generation though? Just curious. Most older Taiwanese speak pretty good Japanese from the colonial period. When I went to S Taiwan in the late 1980’s, the older folks out of the city couldn’t speak or understand a lick of Mandarin, but seriously would get a big smile and start speaking Japanese the second they learned I was a beginning Japanese language student. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-cantonese-and-mandarin-considered-seperate-languages-or-dialects/503839/50 "2009-07-27T13:01:39Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > How much has survived into the younger generation though? Just curious. > > Most older Taiwanese speak pretty good Japanese from the colonial period. When I went to S Taiwan in the late 1980’s, the older folks out of the city couldn’t speak or understand a lick of Mandarin, but seriously would get a big smile and start speaking Japanese the second they learned I was a beginning Japanese language student. Plenty, I think. Obasan, ojisan, “bian dang” (lunchbox) – my wife occassionally warns me that some word or other we use every day in Taiwan wouldn’t be understood by mainlanders or HK’ers when I encounter them on a business trip or something. ETA: which isn’t to say that younger people can speak Japanese to any extent – just that there are loan words that have been handed down from 50 years of being colonized by the Japanese. It would be pretty funny if that wasn’t the case, I’d think. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-cantonese-and-mandarin-considered-seperate-languages-or-dialects/503839/51 "2009-07-27T13:04:31Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Some people claim that they are dialects because they all use Chinese characters, but that’s really irrelevant. You could do that with any two related languages if you wanted to. [Japanese can be written in Chinese characters](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanji), and Japanese is not a dialect of Chinese. They’re not even in the same language family. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-cantonese-and-mandarin-considered-seperate-languages-or-dialects/503839/52 "2009-07-27T13:52:04Z")
> [@Anne\_Neville](#): > > [Japanese can be written in Chinese characters](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanji), and Japanese is not a dialect of Chinese. They’re not even in the same language family. Japanese can be written _entirely_ in Chinese characters? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-cantonese-and-mandarin-considered-seperate-languages-or-dialects/503839/53 "2009-07-27T13:54:55Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Italians and Spaniards can generally make themselves understood to each other if they try. Yeah, but the exchange mostly takes the form of shouting and hand gestures. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-cantonese-and-mandarin-considered-seperate-languages-or-dialects/503839/54 "2009-07-27T13:57:08Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Yeah, but the exchange mostly takes the form of shouting and hand gestures. Justices Scalia and Sotomayor are sure to bring some entertainment value to the new Supreme Court. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-cantonese-and-mandarin-considered-seperate-languages-or-dialects/503839/55 "2009-07-27T23:21:27Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > Japanese can be written _entirely_ in Chinese characters? :dubious: Many words, phrases, and proverbs can be written entirely in Chinese characters. Most personal names are entirely Chinese characters. But your doubt is mostly correct; complete and natural Japanese generally can’t be written entirely in Chinese characters. Plus, the characters often have a different appearance and usage than they do in modern Chinese. If we take Chinese characters as pure ideograms, it is arguable that an orthography could be generated to write any language in Chinese characters. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-cantonese-and-mandarin-considered-seperate-languages-or-dialects/503839/56 "2009-07-28T00:16:15Z")
You’re right, Anne Neville. I wasn’t claiming that only related languages can be written in a language with the same characters. I was only saying that it’s easier to write related languages with the same characters. In a strained way, you can write unrelated languages like Chinese and Japanese with the same characters. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-cantonese-and-mandarin-considered-seperate-languages-or-dialects/503839/57 "2009-07-28T01:04:06Z")
> [@Cosmic Relief](#): > > If we take Chinese characters as pure ideograms, it is arguable that an orthography could be generated to write any language in Chinese characters. I don’t think this is quite accurate: not to be nitpicky, but Chinese characters [aren’t pure ideograms](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_character_classification)–pure ideograms are only a subset of six or more types of characters. So not even Chinese itself is written in the way you describe. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-cantonese-and-mandarin-considered-seperate-languages-or-dialects/503839/58 "2009-07-28T01:28:31Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > I’d love to qualify this answer. Germans can’t understand some dialects of Swiss-German, the more urban ones are understandable. I have camping friends\* who speak Swiss-German, and others that speak German. The Swiss-Germans seem to adjust and speak ‘plain’ German to the German couples. I can’t understand any of it, but they seem able to communicate fine among themselves. \*We’re part of a group that go camping together with kids several times a year. My wife and I and our son seem to be the only ones who aren’t bilingual, so it’s interesting to hear the families, kids and adults, speak with each other in German, Swiss-German, Spanish, Bulgarian, etc. Around the campfire we tend to all speak English as the common tongue. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-cantonese-and-mandarin-considered-seperate-languages-or-dialects/503839/59 "2009-07-28T11:43:40Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > I don’t think this is quite accurate: not to be nitpicky, but Chinese characters [aren’t pure ideograms](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_character_classification)–pure ideograms are only a subset of six or more types of characters. So not even Chinese itself is written in the way you describe. Hence the reason I used the qualifier “if we take…” them all as idiograms. Some actually argue that other extreme, that in fact no Chinese characters are ideograms at all. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-cantonese-and-mandarin-considered-seperate-languages-or-dialects/503839/60 "2009-07-28T14:24:02Z")
There’s a simple explanation of why the Swiss-German speakers decided to speak Standard German to the other German speakers in the camping group. Let me post again the Ethnologue entry on German: [http://www.ethnologue.com/show\_family.asp?subid=208-16](http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=208-16) As you can see, German is actually a set of 19 related languages. However, it is rare for any speaker of any other language to learn anything except Standard German when they are taught the language. It’s called Standard German, not because it’s better in any obvious sense, but because it’s the standard that is the basis for most written German and for how outsiders are taught to speak. It’s not surprising then that Swiss-German speakers would decide to use it in a mixed group of German speakers. Someone is going to ask, “Are these so-called German languages really 19 different languages as opposed to 19 different dialects?” Well, let’s move up a couple levels to the West Germanic subbranch of the Germanic branch of the Indo-European languages: [http://www.ethnologue.com/show\_family.asp?subid=207-16](http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=207-16) As you can see, in comparison there are only two varieties that are considered different languages in the English sub-subbranch: Scots, which is spoken in parts of Scotland and a little bit of Northern Ireland, and English, which is spoken in all the rest of the U.K. and in all the rest of the English-speaking countries of the world. In other words, the differences between all the dialects of English spoken around the world (assuming we don’t count Scots as part of English) are smaller than the differences between the 19 different languages that are lumped together into German. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-cantonese-and-mandarin-considered-seperate-languages-or-dialects/503839.md?page=2)