# Why are China and Russia against imposing sanctions against Iran? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 2, 2006, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-china-and-russia-against-imposing-sanctions-against-iran/367059 "2006-08-02T19:34:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![DVsickgirlDV](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5e925/32.png) [@DVsickgirlDV](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DVsickgirlDV)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-china-and-russia-against-imposing-sanctions-against-iran/367059/1 "2006-08-02T19:34:44Z")
The U.N. just issued another ultimatum to Iran - give up your nuclear ambitions by August 31st or we’ll meet again to discuss what we are going to do to you! I’m sure Iran is truly terrified about this proposition but it seems like China and Russia are the ones that are against imposing sanctions against them. Why is this? What do Russia/China have to gain if Iran is able to continue their uranium enrichment program? What do Russia/China have to lose if the U.N. imposes sanctions? ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-china-and-russia-against-imposing-sanctions-against-iran/367059/2 "2006-08-02T19:37:26Z")
> [@DVsickgirlDV](#): > > The U.N. just issued another ultimatum to Iran - give up your nuclear ambitions by August 31st or we’ll meet again to discuss what we are going to do to you! I’m sure Iran is truly terrified about this proposition but it seems like China and Russia are the ones that are against imposing sanctions against them. > > Why is this? > What do Russia/China have to gain if Iran is able to continue their uranium enrichment program? > What do Russia/China have to lose if the U.N. imposes sanctions? Because they both have personnel in Iran helping with the development of the nuclear program. And I assume they wouldn’t do it for free. ---
**Author:** ![spazattak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e8cbc/32.png) [@spazattak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spazattak)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-china-and-russia-against-imposing-sanctions-against-iran/367059/3 "2006-08-02T19:45:01Z")
> [@DVsickgirlDV](#): > > The U.N. just issued another ultimatum to Iran - give up your nuclear ambitions by August 31st or we’ll meet again to discuss what we are going to do to you! I’m sure Iran is truly terrified about this proposition but it seems like China and Russia are the ones that are against imposing sanctions against them. > > Why is this? > What do Russia/China have to gain if Iran is able to continue their uranium enrichment program? > What do Russia/China have to lose if the U.N. imposes sanctions? Oil and weapons. Iran gets their weapons and technology from Russia and China, and China and Russia get oil from Iran. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-china-and-russia-against-imposing-sanctions-against-iran/367059/4 "2006-08-02T19:56:39Z")
> [@spazattak](#): > > Oil and weapons. Iran gets their weapons and technology from Russia and China, and China and Russia get oil from Iran. FYI: In 2004 Russia was ranked 2nd in the world in oil exports. While they may get oil from Iran, it’s not because they need to. ---
**Author:** ![Generic\_American](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f07891/32.png) [@Generic\_American](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Generic_American)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-china-and-russia-against-imposing-sanctions-against-iran/367059/5 "2006-08-02T20:32:52Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > FYI: In 2004 Russia was ranked 2nd in the world in oil exports. While they may get oil from Iran, it’s not because they need to. How about: the enemy of my enemy is my friend? (Not implying that the US and Russia are not enemies, but more like rivals in the world economy.) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-china-and-russia-against-imposing-sanctions-against-iran/367059/6 "2006-08-02T20:55:18Z")
> [@Generic American](#): > > How about: the enemy of my enemy is my friend? (Not implying that the US and Russia are not enemies, but more like rivals in the world economy.) However, [we are edging closer and closer to becoming enemies.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=379830) And that’s mainly the fault of the U.S., not Russia. Furthermore, [there seems to be a new informal international alliance forming of states hostile to the U.S., and Russia is part of it.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=381211) That “Axis of Evil” crap was preposterous when Bush said it, but it might turn out to have been a self-fulfilling prophecy. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-china-and-russia-against-imposing-sanctions-against-iran/367059/7 "2006-08-02T21:07:00Z")
How about: Iran is a big country in their neighbourhood which they want to stay on good terms with? Whether it’s run by Islamic fuindamentalists or by a more moderate bunch, it’s not going to be a threat to them if they don’t rub it the wrong way. And they have no illusions that they would be able to take on Iran in a war and win the war, so that’s not van option. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-china-and-russia-against-imposing-sanctions-against-iran/367059/8 "2006-08-02T22:16:47Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > However, we are edging closer and closer to becoming enemies. And that’s mainly the fault of the U.S., not Russia. I don’t see how your, er, cite, backs up your assertion that the cooling relation between Russia and the US is ‘mainly the fault of the U.S.’ and not Russia. Because you assert it doesn’t make it so BG. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Furthermore, there seems to be a new informal international alliance forming of states hostile to the U.S., and Russia is part of it. That “Axis of Evil” crap was preposterous when Bush said it, but it might turn out to have been a self-fulfilling prophecy. 😛 I know YOU think this is a significant alliance against the US, but really…Belarus? Venezuela?? :smack: Even Russia itself, though still a nuclear power, isn’t exactly a major world power these days. Not that I expect them to attempt to go head to head with the US in any case. The Belarus’s and Venezuela’s can afford to do so because frankly they are pretty far down on the threat meter…and the power meter…as far as the US is concerned. They also aren’t exactly major trading partners with the US (from the perspective of their own economies)…while I believe Russia still gets a lot of hard capital from the US. -XT ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-china-and-russia-against-imposing-sanctions-against-iran/367059/9 "2006-08-02T22:53:39Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I don’t see how your, er, cite, backs up your assertion that the cooling relation between Russia and the US is ‘mainly the fault of the U.S.’ and not Russia. Because you assert it doesn’t make it so BG. Read the article linked in the OP of that thread. > [@xtisme](#): > > I know YOU think this is a significant alliance against the US, but really…Belarus? Venezuela?? And Iran and Russia. And Cuba, and everybody else Chavez has been making friends with. Negligible states individually, but an alliance, while no great threat as an aggressor, could maneuver to block the exercise of America’s global influence in various ways. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-china-and-russia-against-imposing-sanctions-against-iran/367059/10 "2006-08-02T23:09:14Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Read the article linked in the OP of that thread. I did read it BG. I actually peeked into that thread when you first started it. I’m just unconvinced that this is hard evidence that its all (or even mostly) the US’s fault. Obviously YMMV. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And Iran and Russia. And Cuba, and everybody else Chavez has been making friends with. Negligible states individually, but an alliance, while no great threat as an aggressor, could maneuver to block the exercise of America’s global influence in various ways. I’m a quaken in ma boots BG. 😛 When the Japan’s, South Korea’s, or various of our Euro buddies join the list…well, then you may have something. Hell, I’ll just wait and see how many of these power states are still around and still anti-American a decade or so from now for that matter. I know you have every faith in world socialism, in your bro Chavez and his Venezuelan paradice and in all things Cuban (no idea why you feel good about Bellarus), but I’m not confident in their long term stability myself. Not because of big ole bad US gona come get some on dey ass, but simply because I think that their systems are built not with feet of clay but on quicksand…in Chavez’s case its built on how long he can keep his ‘economic miricle’ up via pumping oil out as fast as he can. Maybe Cuba will get such a short term shot in the arm as well. But when the oil dries up I asks my self (yes precious, I asssks myself 😛 )…what then? Socialist paradice and a sad parting as BG heads for greener and more PC digs? Or collapse? Methings the latter. Which is good…I’m rather fond of you after all. -XT ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2006, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-china-and-russia-against-imposing-sanctions-against-iran/367059/11 "2006-08-03T00:32:42Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I know you have every faith in world socialism, in your bro Chavez and his Venezuelan paradice and in all things Cuban (no idea why you feel good about Bellarus), but I’m not confident in their long term stability myself. Please don’t mischaracterize, and especially don’t oversimplify, my views. I’m no Marxist, I have no **faith** in socialism on a global or national scale as being anywhere a historic inevitability. It’s something we have to **work** for, and devise by gradual stages of trial and error. Lots of things about Chavez I don’t like at all (most of all, his press censorship), but I remain convinced he’s the best leader his country has ever had and he will do much more good than harm if only he keeps on doing what he’s doing. Venezuela has needed a social revolution for a very long time, and this one doesn’t involve the elite being executed or exiled or even dispossessed of anything but their political power. I’ve never approved of Castro’s dictatorship, but I can appreciate the good things about the system, and I can understand why the Cuban people might not be quite as eager to scrap it as every Cuban and every Republican in the U.S. seems to assume. I **don’t** feel good at all about Belarus, it’s an odious dictatorship and a joke of a country, but I don’t think that means its inclusion in any anti-U.S. alliance is something to be entirely shrugged off. Many reeds in a bundle, you know. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2006, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-china-and-russia-against-imposing-sanctions-against-iran/367059/12 "2006-08-03T01:45:52Z")
I didn’t say you were a marxist BG (I called you a socialist 😉 )…and I was mostly talking tongue in cheek there anyway. It was supposed to be over the top with just cores of truth here and there…sorry that you took it all so seriously. I would miss you if you took off for a socialist paradice though. 😉 -XT ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2006, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-china-and-russia-against-imposing-sanctions-against-iran/367059/13 "2006-08-03T03:38:17Z")
> [@](#): > > However, we are edging closer and closer to becoming enemies. And that’s mainly the fault of the U.S., not Russia. No it’s not, it’s just the usual Russian attitude of diametrically opposing anything the US is for. It’s trying to fashion itself as the ‘Soviet Lite’ > [@](#): > > Furthermore, there seems to be a new informal international alliance forming of states hostile to the U.S., and Russia is part of it. That “Axis of Evil” crap was preposterous when Bush said it, but it might turn out to have been a self-fulfilling prophecy. I did not know that North Korea, Iran and Iraq before 2003 were not belligerents of the US. > [@](#): > > It’s something we have to work for, and devise by gradual stages of trial and error. Lots of things about Chavez I don’t like at all (most of all, his press censorship), but I remain convinced he’s the best leader his country has ever had and he will do much more good than harm if only he keeps on doing what he’s doing. The ‘best leader ever hehehe’ would be someone who could do all that, not have to fashion its primary Oil buyer as the imperialist warmonger, and censor the press or abuse Human rights. > [@](#): > > Venezuela has needed a social revolution for a very long time, and this one doesn’t involve the elite being executed or exiled or even dispossessed of anything but their political power. No, just many of them losing what they own or a significant chunk of it, hence ‘robbing peter to pay paul’ > [@](#): > > I’ve never approved of Castro’s dictatorship, but I can appreciate the good things about the system, and I can understand why the Cuban people might not be quite as eager to scrap it as every Cuban and every Republican in the U.S. seems to assume. Maybe because they have no choice in the desire of a better system? Every Cuban in the US wants it scrapped because its a habitual abuser of Human rights, authoritarian, corrupt and imprisons Homosexuals. Every society has its portion who long for the ‘good ole’ days’ but there is usually alot more who desire to move forward. Which in light of Latin American and Carribean politics, Cuba should of done a long time ago. ---
**Author:** ![DVsickgirlDV](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5e925/32.png) [@DVsickgirlDV](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DVsickgirlDV)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2006, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-china-and-russia-against-imposing-sanctions-against-iran/367059/14 "2006-08-03T03:44:32Z")
> [@Generic American](#): > > How about: the enemy of my enemy is my friend? (Not implying that the US and Russia are not enemies, but more like rivals in the world economy.) Didn’t Russia try this with Hitler in the first part of WWII? Do they not have enough foresight to realize that Iran will probably one day plot their destruction as well? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2006, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-china-and-russia-against-imposing-sanctions-against-iran/367059/15 "2006-08-03T04:53:12Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I did not know that North Korea, Iran and Iraq before 2003 were not belligerents of the US. They **weren’t,** except on general principles. W and W alone has given them reason to be **really** our enemies. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > The ‘best leader ever hehehe’ would be someone who could do all that, not have to fashion its primary Oil buyer as the imperialist warmonger, and censor the press or abuse Human rights. Chavez is the best leader **Venezuela** has ever had – i.e., better than any and all that came before. That is all. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > No, just many of them losing what they own or a significant chunk of it, hence ‘robbing peter to pay paul’ So what? That’s how it **should** be. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Maybe because they have no choice in the desire of a better system? Maybe because they remember an even **worse** system, which it was under Batista. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2006, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-china-and-russia-against-imposing-sanctions-against-iran/367059/16 "2006-08-03T05:05:29Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > How about: Iran is a big country in their neighbourhood which they want to stay on good terms with? Whether it’s run by Islamic fuindamentalists or by a more moderate bunch, it’s not going to be a threat to them if they don’t rub it the wrong way. And they have no illusions that they would be able to take on Iran in a war and win the war, so that’s not van option. Huh? Are you seriously saying Iran could beat either Russia or China in a war? Iran probably can’t handle Israel. No way they can beat Russia or China, even assuming conventional forces only. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2006, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-china-and-russia-against-imposing-sanctions-against-iran/367059/17 "2006-08-03T05:07:43Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > …in Chavez’s case its built on how long he can keep his ‘economic miricle’ up via pumping oil out as fast as he can. **Of course** Venezuela’s oil is going to run out some day. That’s why Chavez [is spending the oil revenue on things that will have lasting value even when the oil is gone.](http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050411/parenti) ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2006, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-china-and-russia-against-imposing-sanctions-against-iran/367059/18 "2006-08-03T05:51:07Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Of course Venezuela’s oil is going to run out some day. That’s why Chavez is spending the oil revenue on things that will have lasting value even when the oil is gone. Having read the article in question I fail to see that he’s buying things that will help them make up for the fact that (appearently…according to the article) 30% of the GNP currently comes from oil. 30%! Reading the article he is spending that money on building houses for the poor and other such things (collective businesses, community land initiatives, etc). Don’t get me wrong…those are good and worthy things (well, maybe not all of them…housing and schools are though). I wish to the gods someone in Mexico would do something like that with the oil money they are getting. The problem is, they aren’t building the economy to pick up the slack once the oil goes by-by…at least not IMHO. I think that, worthy though they are, it would be wiser to spend that vast amount of wealth on building up a self sustaining economy divorced from oil. Leaving aside the obvious slant of the article for a moment, most of what it mentions in there taking about what the money is actually being spent on has to do with collective businesses and help for the poor (as I noted above, houses and such). Also schools. THIS may indeed be something that helps in the long run and I applaude him for it. But I didn’t note that he was spending a large percentage on, say, a whole new and modern infrastructure (as a single example). Something you could use to entice capital and businesses from other countries…countries like the US if he wasn’t so hostile (and if he was actually doing this). It will be interesting to see what happens when the oil runs out there, or if by some freak chance the price of oil drops radically (say one of those fantasy alternative energy schemes comes to pass :))…and how long the people will support him when he’s not buying them off with new houses and such. Obviously you and I disagree on what exactly ‘lasting value’ is…and whats important. No surprise there. If I missed something in the article (I only skimmed through it) that you think was important wrt your assertion, feel free to post the relevant parts and I’ll look em over. -XT ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2006, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-china-and-russia-against-imposing-sanctions-against-iran/367059/19 "2006-08-03T12:11:20Z")
I suspect a certain amount of co-ordinated wrestling is going on. - I remember a skit where two wrestlers were going at each other hammer and tong, but the sound track was (like) : ‘that’s a new aftershave, what is it called ?’ ‘can’t remember - Sue got it for my birthday’ ‘oh - right - still on for dinner on Saturday ?’ China and the USA have some phoney struggle going on, and China is the ‘good guy’ for North Korea. Russia is not the USSR, Russia is rich, not quite yet, but the bear has ‘great expectations’, and it knows that it has Europe by the balls, which does not really worry Europe. It makes a lot of sense for the three big players (plus a few more) to act as if they were antagonistic towards each other. Well it would look a bit odd if they all sang to the same song book. Russia is acutely aware of the Fundamental Muslim problem, it spotted it in 1979 when it tried to wipe it out in Afghanistan. It conveniently lost most of its ‘Black Arses’. China is sitting on a bunch of peasants, including potentially nasty Muslims up near Afghanistan, it is industrializing and educating at breakneck speed, and does not want to trip up in the same way as Iran did. If Iran really wants a Nuclear Reactor then the French or the Russians can supply one, and keep a careful eye on what goes on there. The USA will huff and puff, but behind the scenes they’ll give a sigh of relief when the ‘deal’ goes through. Curiously we are in the stage where it is in all the big players’ interest to mop up minor areas of conflict. They are all afraid of ‘fundamentalism’ eg: the peasants revolting. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2006, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-china-and-russia-against-imposing-sanctions-against-iran/367059/20 "2006-08-03T13:12:20Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Huh? Are you seriously saying Iran could beat either Russia or China in a war? Iran probably can’t handle Israel. No way they can beat Russia or China, even assuming conventional forces only. Yes, just as Afghanistan beat the Soviet Union, North Vietnam beat the United States, and the insurgents in Iraq are currently beating the United States. And why would you assume conventional forces only? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-china-and-russia-against-imposing-sanctions-against-iran/367059.md?page=2)