# Why are Democrats opposed to school vouchers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 17, 2013, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-democrats-opposed-to-school-vouchers/669084 "2013-09-17T19:47:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-democrats-opposed-to-school-vouchers/669084/21 "2013-09-17T21:13:24Z")
> [@bup](#): > > They’re against vouchers because vouchers take money away from the public schools. This. Public schools, when properly funded, are the most effective and efficient way to educate everyone, rich and poor alike. However, there are plenty of conservatives who want to suck at the government teat. So they try to pass laws so that public money gets channeled into their private pockets. Private schools are less efficient, but who cares about efficiency when you and your buddies can make an easy buck off a government contract, right? It’s like outsourcing functions of the military to private contractors. They cost more and deliver less, but instead of the money going to working soldiers it goes into the pockets of private business men. Good for a small minority of business scammers, bad for everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-democrats-opposed-to-school-vouchers/669084/22 "2013-09-17T21:15:20Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > [Previous recent thread on vouchers.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=654999&highlight=voucher) That is _not_ the only previous thread on the topic. Indeed **ITR champion** asked the same question in a previous thread: > [@When school vouchers and NIMBYism collide](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-school-vouchers-and-nimbyism-collide/665027/2): > > The real mystery is why liberal Democrats are almost uniformly opposed to education vouchers while at the same time being happy about vouchers in other areas. I refer Mr. Champion to the answer I gave in that thread: > [@When school vouchers and NIMBYism collide](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-school-vouchers-and-nimbyism-collide/665027/5): > > For the near future, most children will be educated in public schools. Public schools have disadvantages compared with private schools; for one thing, unlike private schools _they cannot reject applicants_. > > Thus, however strong the arguments for school vouchers may be, the majority of American children will be adversely affected if voucher programs “scoop off the cream” and reduce funding for public schools. > > I think many progressives support such programs when they’re part of a plan to cooperatively improve education overall. Instead, some of the programs are motivated just by a philosophy of “I want mine. Screw you.” and a pretense that public schools will benefit from their own _creative destruction_. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-democrats-opposed-to-school-vouchers/669084/23 "2013-09-17T21:22:55Z")
I’d be in support of supplementary programs. If you can show your kid isn’t being served well by his or her school, you should be able to qualify for extra services, either reimbursed through tax breaks or some other vehicle. You could be compensated for sending your kid to Sylvan after school, for instance. Or if there’s a summertime academic program that would help prevent your slow-learner from “back sliding”, you could get a voucher to cover all or some of the expenses for him to attend. Of course, this would require raising taxes…which is BAD BAD BAD. But my guess is this type of approach would have similar beneficial effects that placing a kid in a private school would, but without leaving schools in a “brain drain” situation. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-democrats-opposed-to-school-vouchers/669084/24 "2013-09-17T21:25:13Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > Also, I think a lot of taxpayers of all stripes would have an issue with public dollars going to all kinds of religious schools, IMHO. Is that the majority view in the US? ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-democrats-opposed-to-school-vouchers/669084/25 "2013-09-17T21:28:36Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Is that the majority view in the US? No, i seriously doubt it. Doesn’t mean it should be allowed. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-democrats-opposed-to-school-vouchers/669084/26 "2013-09-17T21:31:37Z")
> [@bump](#): > > There isn’t a “US education system”- it’s almost all at the state and local level, with periodic Federal meddling. It’s as close to national as anything short of the military. However much individual control districts and counties and states have, all are bound to common standards, goals and programs that tend to make them more the same than different. The level of community funding and control is a very sharp 2-edged sword. On the one hand, Mississippi. OTO, small communities that manage the whole process, from taxation rates through spending through as much of the education process and standards as the state and feds will let them. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-democrats-opposed-to-school-vouchers/669084/27 "2013-09-17T21:33:57Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Is that the majority view in the US? > [@DigitalC](#): > > No, i seriously doubt it. Doesn’t mean it should be allowed. I think that vouchers or other government funding for religiously-oriented schools has majority opposition… only because the various sects are opposed to funding those “other” religions. The evangelical/fundamentalists in particular lust after paid Jeebus schools but choke on the idea that even Catholics would get the same privilege. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-democrats-opposed-to-school-vouchers/669084/28 "2013-09-17T21:38:50Z")
I don’t get why having the ability to buy caviar while being opposed to subsiding poor people buying caviar is hypocritical. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-democrats-opposed-to-school-vouchers/669084/29 "2013-09-17T21:40:45Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > Also, I think a lot of taxpayers of all stripes would have an issue with public dollars going to all kinds of religious schools, IMHO. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Is that the majority view in the US? Well, _opposition to vouchers_ does seem to be the majority view. A [Phi Delta Kappa/Gallup poll](http://pdkintl.org/noindex/2013_PDKGallup.pdf) asked “Do you favor or oppose allowing students and parents to choose a private school to attend at public expense?”; 70% of respondents answered that they oppose this and 29% that they favor such a policy. But I don’t know of any data on _why_ such a large percentage of the public opposes vouchers; a desire to not have public money go to sectarian institutions is only one of several reasons why people might oppose school vouchers. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-democrats-opposed-to-school-vouchers/669084/30 "2013-09-17T21:47:12Z")
It’s simple. Vouchers are paid for by _my_ tax money. In the public school system I can have quite of bit of input as to what is taught & how. I can vote out bad Board members, I can support good ones, I can influence others, including other elected officials. I can (and have) serve on the Civil Grand Jury which audits and oversees the schools. Private schools can & do teach such nonsense as “Creation Science’ or other stuff. Trinopus, snowthx and DigitalC have also voiced this very real concern. They can also waste their funds (which are MY funds, remember?) as they wish with little or no oversight. Fire teachers for their beliefs. etc. Now, if you force any Private school that takes vouchers to have it’s program overseen by elected officials, then fine. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-democrats-opposed-to-school-vouchers/669084/31 "2013-09-17T21:58:00Z")
**ITR Champion** : I have it on excellent authority that John Boehner goes to Morton’s Steakhouse every now and then. He also supports cutting food stamps. Is this the same level of hypocrisy as the Democrats mentioned in your OP, or greater? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-democrats-opposed-to-school-vouchers/669084/32 "2013-09-17T21:59:25Z")
If schools accepting vouchers were prevented from charging anything beyond the voucher payment, there might be some level of equality. If they can charge, we’d have the same unequal system as now with the better off being subsidized. A lot of school success depends on parents. Why make the situation of kids who don’t get read to or homework support even worse by going to schools defaulted to by parents who either did nothing or got suckered in by school salesmen. We have a kind of voucher system for college already - how are the for-profit colleges working out? ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-democrats-opposed-to-school-vouchers/669084/33 "2013-09-17T22:09:06Z")
Have you seen some of the schools in WDC? I lived there for a year in the 80s while in the military, and squeezed enough out of my paycheck to send my two teens to Catholic schools. The local schools they would have been in were liked armed camps. My two youngest ended up in a predominately black elementary school in southeast DC, where they spent their days being treated like the minorities that they were. The oldest of those two still recalls that year with a shudder, now at age 37. I’m confident that my oldest two would have received a lousy education in their prospective schools. There weren’t enough books to go around, and neither of them came home that first day with any idea as to where their classes were. Given that sort of school system, I’d send my kids to private school, too. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-democrats-opposed-to-school-vouchers/669084/34 "2013-09-17T22:12:26Z")
The absolute worst is this idea of ‘for profit’ schools replacing public schools. Because you can never have too much profit in your education system. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tastes_of_chocolate/32/3232_2.png) [@Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tastes_of_Chocolate)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-democrats-opposed-to-school-vouchers/669084/35 "2013-09-17T22:35:22Z")
I own a house, and I don’t have any children. So I pay WAY more into the public school system than I take out of it. And I don’t have a problem with that. I generally vote for school bonding bills, to raise my own taxes. I oppose the idea that someone should be able to take “their share” of that public school funding and give it to a private institution, in the process reducing the funds available to the remaining students in the public schools. I haven’t agreed to pay part of the tuition for a very pricy school for the children of rich folks. I haven’t agreed to pay the tuition to attend religious schools. I have agreed to pay towards educating ALL kids. I MIGHT approve of a system that lets the public school students transfer to a different public school, and take let’s say 2/3rds of the cost of one student with them to the new school. It would depend on the details. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-democrats-opposed-to-school-vouchers/669084/36 "2013-09-17T22:42:35Z")
Vouchers generally don’t help poor families get their children into better schools. They usually end up putting them in worse schools. Vouchers won’t cover the tuition at most decent private schools. So they don’t help the poor people who can’t afford to cover the balance of the tuition. The people who get helped are those who are already well enough off to be able to afford private schooling. Now you can make an argument about what social services the government should be paying for. But I think it’s hard to argue against the idea that if the government is going to pay for some social service, it should be spending that money on the people who are the poorest. The result of this subsidy to wealthy and middle class parents is they spend less to send their children to private schools. With their children in private schools, they have less interest in the conditions at public schools and those conditions decline. So poor parents, who can’t afford private schools even with vouchers, are stuck sending their children to public schools that have been made worse as a result of voucher programs. And as was already noted, most private schools in this country are run by conservative religious groups. So vouchers are a stealth program to funnel government money to these conservative religious groups. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-democrats-opposed-to-school-vouchers/669084/37 "2013-09-17T23:05:59Z")
Whenever this topic comes up, a lot of valid concerns are raised but they don’t ever get a good response. I wish the OP or someone else would address them. Here are the “valid concerns”: -Lack of oversight. Which schools get vouchers and how do we know that they’ll be better than the public option? -Separation of church and state. Why should we use public money to support religious institutions and the inculcation of religious dogma? How do we ensure that private schools advertising themselves as secular just to get some voucher students aren’t actually teaching religious and/or crazy beliefs on the down low? -What do we do about the “failing” schools left behind? The number of vouchers available for any given school or school district will be limited. There will always students who for whatever reason can’t avail themselves of vouchers. How does vouchers improve education for _these_ kids? Someone, anyone, please take a stab of any of these. Or else concede that this is a lost cause for your side. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-democrats-opposed-to-school-vouchers/669084/38 "2013-09-17T23:08:37Z")
The only reason private schools have better results than public schools, is they have the luxury of rejecting students with learning disabilities who are expensive to teach. They discovered the key to raising test scores is expel kids who fail tests. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-democrats-opposed-to-school-vouchers/669084/39 "2013-09-17T23:08:38Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > So why do Democrats continue to support a system that provides a high-quality private school education to the rich while leaving many poor children trapped in failing public schools? Because vouchers will not help those poor children in failing schools and eliminating vouchers would better help those schools become non-failing schools ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-democrats-opposed-to-school-vouchers/669084/40 "2013-09-17T23:12:37Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > Well, _opposition to vouchers_ does seem to be the majority view. A [Phi Delta Kappa/Gallup poll](http://pdkintl.org/noindex/2013_PDKGallup.pdf) asked “Do you favor or oppose allowing students and parents to choose a private school to attend at public expense?”; 70% of respondents answered that they oppose this and 29% that they favor such a policy. But I don’t know of any data on _why_ such a large percentage of the public opposes vouchers; a desire to not have public money go to sectarian institutions is only one of several reasons why people might oppose school vouchers. That’s a very loaded question. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-democrats-opposed-to-school-vouchers/669084.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-democrats-opposed-to-school-vouchers/669084.md?page=3)