# Why are Dutch so liberal and tolerant ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 12, 2004, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-dutch-so-liberal-and-tolerant/274368 "2004-11-12T12:57:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-dutch-so-liberal-and-tolerant/274368/21 "2004-11-15T00:43:53Z")
[http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/ns/news/story.jsp?id=2004111318470002621094&dt=20041113184700&w=RTR&coview=](http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/ns/news/story.jsp?id=2004111318470002621094&dt=20041113184700&w=RTR&coview=) Did I missread this post? The Dutch citizens are busy burning each other’s churches and Mosques. [Dutch Muslims Dismayed by Anti-Islamic Backlash](http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/ns/news/story.jsp?id=2004111318470002621094&dt=20041113184700&w=RTR&coview=) Granted, this is in reaction to filmmaker Theo van Gogh’s assasination but I would expect from any country’s population. I’ve always believed that people react in a similar manner (to a situation) despite vast differences in culture background. The difference between cultures being the degree of the reaction and not the reaction itself. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-dutch-so-liberal-and-tolerant/274368/22 "2004-11-15T01:06:40Z")
SentientMeat writes: \> And those protestant ethics weren’t quite the same as the US: Holland was for \> decades a centre for the almost anarchic Anabaptists, which don’t compare very \> closely to the more puritan, Luddite version of Lutheranism of the pilgrim fathers. Can we please get one fallacy out of the way? The U.S. was not settled by Puritans. The Pilgrims and the later Puritan settlers were only a tiny proportion of the settlers of the U.S. Furthermore, the area that they settled is now the most liberal section of the U.S. Furthermore, just before coming to the U.S., the Pilgrims had spent several years in the Netherlands. When someone refers to modern Americans as “Puritans,” at best they are using an analogy. The religious strictness of the real Puritans was, in any case, rather different from American Fundamentalism (and Fundamentalism didn’t come into existence until the beginning of the twentieth century). ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-dutch-so-liberal-and-tolerant/274368/23 "2004-11-15T01:34:43Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Did I missread this post? The Dutch citizens are busy burning each other’s churches and Mosques. Dutch Muslims Dismayed by Anti-Islamic Backlash > > Granted, this is in reaction to filmmaker Theo van Gogh’s assasination but I would expect from any country’s population. I’ve always believed that people react in a similar manner (to a situation) despite vast differences in culture background. The difference between cultures being the degree of the reaction and not the reaction itself. Well…but look how many mosques are burned in the US every year to compare. I mean, I’m sure we burn a hell of a lot more mosques than the Dutch do…don’t we? Since we are so conservative and intolerant…and so…so…so…NOT DUTCH!! And all that. I actually thought this was a joke film doing a take off on Gold Member and their parody of all things…Dutch. 🙂 -XT ---
**Author:** ![Mirasawa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mirasawa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mirasawa)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-dutch-so-liberal-and-tolerant/274368/24 "2004-11-15T02:55:54Z")
Maybe one country in Europe has to be the most socially liberal… roll the dice… Netherlands! Ok. So what? I do have a question… has there been a state religion in the Netherlands? Or have ideologies been required to compete like in the U.S.? \_ \_) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-dutch-so-liberal-and-tolerant/274368/25 "2004-11-15T03:53:10Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Well…but look how many mosques are burned in the US every year to compare. I mean, I’m sure we burn a hell of a lot more mosques than the Dutch do…don’t we? Since we are so conservative and intolerant…and so…so…so…NOT DUTCH!! And all that. > > I actually thought this was a joke film doing a take off on Gold Member and their parody of all things…Dutch. 🙂 > > -XT I missed your sarcasm until I tried to find reference to Mosques burned in the US. But then, we posted police at Mosques immediately following 9/11. Gov’t agencies acting in a proactive manner. Huh. Who would have thought. NOT THE DUTCH. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-dutch-so-liberal-and-tolerant/274368/26 "2004-11-15T14:35:20Z")
> [@Tusculan](#): > > That’s a side of The Netherlands that foreigners aren’t usually aware of. In the 1950’s the Dutch were very religious, which changed rather radically in the 1960s-1970s. A number of authors have written extensively about their experiences in shaking of the bonds of religion (Maarten 't Hart, Jan Wolkers among others). Tusculan… how did that come about ? Why the “shaking of the bonds” ? ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-dutch-so-liberal-and-tolerant/274368/27 "2004-11-15T14:43:12Z")
> [@Mirasawa](#): > > I do have a question… has there been a state religion in the Netherlands? Or have ideologies been required to compete like in the U.S.? Compete. [Or rather, the emerging Dutch republic tended to be Protestant, while its various occupiers were mostly Catholic.](http://www.tutorgig.com/encyclopedia/getdefn.jsp?keywords=Eighty_Years'_War) To this day, the south of Holland is generally Catholic, and the North Protestant, though both of the luke-warm variety. The Royal Family is Protestant. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-dutch-so-liberal-and-tolerant/274368/28 "2004-11-15T15:08:59Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > [ I’ve always believed that people react in a similar manner (to a situation) despite vast differences in culture background. . Indeed, and that’s frightening. You may get along well with your well-behaved neighbors, but you just know that if there’s some serious crisis, some of them are going to pay you a visit with gasoline, machetes, forks or AK47s… When I listen some people speaking, or read some posts on message boards, I can’t help thinking : "If things go awry, I’ll be on their “to hang” list ". ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-dutch-so-liberal-and-tolerant/274368/29 "2004-11-15T16:51:17Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Now, there are aspects of society in the Netherlands I don’t favor (euthanasia for one). My wife’s family is quite glad they have it, since it saved a relative months of extreme pain and personal degradation. **grienspace** Mother-in-law? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-dutch-so-liberal-and-tolerant/274368/30 "2004-11-15T17:04:51Z")
> [@Tusculan](#): > > 1. Dutch public policy during the twentieth century has been very much influenced by pragmatism. The policy with respect to prostitution and drugs has been driven by a desire to get the best result for society and to diminish suffering of the people influenced, not to strictly enforce a ban. This may have to do with certain influences of social science on policy, I’m not sure about that. Dutch policy tends to stress leniency for those suffering, not for trying to attach blame or mete out punishment. I should note that a lot of Dutch feel that this is the wrong approach, and think for example that there should be harsher punishments. And, even there, the impression I get is that this attitude is also based on pragmatism (i.e. getting tough on crime is valued in the hope that deterrence and incarceration will reduce crime and thus help people generally) rather than any moralistic notion that criminals deserve to suffer. ---
**Author:** ![Tusculan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecd19e/32.png) [@Tusculan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tusculan)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-dutch-so-liberal-and-tolerant/274368/31 "2004-11-15T18:02:07Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > Tusculan… how did that come about ? Why the “shaking of the bonds” ? I’m not sure. I believe it was the influence of rise of material welfare, and the 60s and 70s hippie period/personal development and freedom lifestyle. But I’d gladly give way for a better educated guess. **Maastricht** , I’m not an expat, I live in the same city as **Coldfire**. Unless you don’t consider that part of the country anymore… ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-dutch-so-liberal-and-tolerant/274368/32 "2004-11-16T00:33:31Z")
> [@Barbarian](#): > > My wife’s family is quite glad they have it, since it saved a relative months of extreme pain and personal degradation. > > **grienspace** Mother-in-law? 😉 I’m absolutely lost as to what your comment regarding my MiL implies. Please enlighten me. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-dutch-so-liberal-and-tolerant/274368/33 "2004-11-16T06:40:37Z")
So how long has there been this global reputation of the Dutch for being liberal and tolerant? And what effect has the reputation had on bringing like-minded people to the Netherlands? I would think after a while that most _new_ residents would be self-selecting. Personally, I’m inclined to offer that it’s because their menfolk are _so fine_ that you can’t really look at them and be mad at other people, but maybe I just had an unusually pleasant encounter. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-dutch-so-liberal-and-tolerant/274368/34 "2004-11-16T09:25:58Z")
**clairobscur:** _You may get along well with your well-behaved neighbors, but you just know that if there’s some serious crisis, some of them are going to pay you a visit with gasoline, machetes, forks or AK47s…_ “Forks”?? 😕 Somehow I never worried too much about an intolerant neighbor coming after me with a fork. ( **clairobscur** , are you by any chance a [Snark](http://home.earthlink.net/~lfdean/carroll/snark/fit3.html)? 🙂 ) ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-dutch-so-liberal-and-tolerant/274368/35 "2004-11-16T09:28:53Z")
**Zsofia:** _So how long has there been this global reputation of the Dutch for being liberal and tolerant? And what effect has the reputation had on bringing like-minded people to the Netherlands?_ Ahem (although I’m only a temporary resident in the Netherlands, AFAIK). 🙂 _Personally, I’m inclined to offer that it’s because their menfolk are so fine that you can’t really look at them and be mad at other people_ And that’s true too. ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-dutch-so-liberal-and-tolerant/274368/36 "2004-11-16T13:05:49Z")
> [@grienspace](#): > > I’m absolutely lost as to what your comment regarding my MiL implies. Please enlighten me. You sound like _my_ Mother-in-law. She also would have misunderstood that 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-dutch-so-liberal-and-tolerant/274368/37 "2004-11-16T21:47:10Z")
> [@Tusculan](#): > > **Maastricht** , I’m not an expat, I live in the same city as **Coldfire**. Unless you don’t consider that part of the country anymore… **Tusculan** , it _is_ hard for us southerners (even the imported ones) to acknowledge there is still something worth seeing above the Great Rivers. I mean, apart from great museums and cities, and the trifle of our government, what do they have to offer us? Certainly not the “vloai”. 😉 Oh, and let me take this opportunity to invite any fans (and critics) of the Netherlands to the upcoming [Maastrichtdope](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=286989). ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-dutch-so-liberal-and-tolerant/274368/38 "2004-11-17T00:41:56Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Indeed, and that’s frightening. You may get along well with your well-behaved neighbors, but you just know that if there’s some serious crisis, some of them are going to pay you a visit with gasoline, machetes, forks or AK47s… > When I listen some people speaking, or read some posts on message boards, I can’t help thinking : "If things go awry, I’ll be on their “to hang” list ". What social injustice have you committed to get on this list and what on this board scares you? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-dutch-so-liberal-and-tolerant/274368/39 "2004-11-17T07:34:25Z")
**Magiver:** _What social injustice have you committed to get on this [“to-hang”] list_ Maybe he kissed another man or said he didn’t believe in God. For some people out there, that’s all it would take to justify a hanging if they really got mad. No social injustice required. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-dutch-so-liberal-and-tolerant/274368/40 "2004-11-17T11:49:45Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > Tusculan… how did that come about ? Why the “shaking of the bonds” ? **Tusculan** , may I make an attempt at answering this? In the 60-ies and 70-ies, there was a worldwide quest for more personal freedom, especially amongst young people. I believe this trend has been explained from a conjunction of young people earning a lot for the first time in history (due to the booming economy and the efforts of the socialist unions in the decades before that) and because more and more people were educated. In different countries, this revolt of the youngsters got a different shape (political, sexual, religious, travelling etc) and was aimed at different “oppressors”. In Holland, the Church had been particularly oppresive in the fifties. Holland was divided in “zuilen”, fractions. There was a Christian Protestant-fraction, a Catholic one, a Socialist one, about five of them. If you were a member of the Christian fraction, that meant you not only went to a Christian Church on Sunday, but were expected to be a member of the Christian workers-union, member of the Christian political parties, listen only to the Christian broadcasting companies, be a member of the Christian local sports-club and marry only other members from the same fraction. To venture outside of your fraction, even for a knitting-club, was heavily frowned upon. The influence of your fraction on daily life was omnipresent and unrelenting, to a degree that Americans, with their multitude of religious belief-flavours to choose from, can’t imagine. \*) In Limburg for instance, it was quite common for the parish priest to visit catholic families ans urge them to get yet another child. :eek: Many Catholic families had 5-12 children as a result of this interfering ! They had to: the Parish priest could make life difficult for them, if he had a talk with their Catholic employer and their Catholic network. Probably as a reaction, in the seventies and eighties the birth rate in the former Catholic provinces plummeted to the lowest in the country. So it’s only likely that young people in the seventies revolted. It is typical that their revolt was more against the way their parents lives were oppressed by the fraction they were a member of, and not against religion per se. Ever since then, the attitude has been: “I can decide for my own what clubs or churches I want to belong to, thank you very much”. Although the seams of the former fractions are still clearly visible amongst the Dutch society. It has been argued that the Islamists are just another fraction, and that they still need to have their 70-ies revolt. \*) We may have nine political parties where the USA has only three; but the list of religions in the Phoenix Yellow pages is over four pages long, whereas in Holland the same list would constist of just _three_ entries. You basically got to choose between Catholic and two brands of protestant, (Hervormd en Gereformeerd) and that was it. . Even at the heyday of the fractions-system the Dutch didn;t lose their tolerance for one another, though. The attitude towards other fractions was one of “let’s leave each other alone”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-dutch-so-liberal-and-tolerant/274368.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-dutch-so-liberal-and-tolerant/274368.md?page=3)