# Why are Dutch so liberal and tolerant ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 12, 2004, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-dutch-so-liberal-and-tolerant/274368 "2004-11-12T12:57:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-dutch-so-liberal-and-tolerant/274368/61 "2004-12-10T14:03:19Z")
> [@Wake up call](#): > > Precisely. You won’t know it , unless you get close. > One can put up a very “broad-minded Dutch” outlook about oneself and say “What do you mean? — My best friends are Jews, My best friends are black. Ya–dida-da-da”. > > But when it gets close to home – NIMBY – Not In My Back Yard. > I want to know the “true” percentage of “open-minded Dutch” versus the percentage of “covert NIMBYs” in Holland. What **gum** said. (Again!) 🙂 Actually, my own observation is that, with regard to discrimination, the attitude of the jew/black/asian/blond/fat/thin/muslim person is far more important then their physical characteristics. If you are jew/black/asian/blond/fat/thin/muslim but don’t make an issue out of it, then 99,9 % of the Dutch won’t, either. There may be some prejudices against jew/black/asian/blond/fat/thin people, but I really don’t see how those are much different then Frisan people having prejudices about Groningen people (two adjoining provinces which are each others spitting image to any Dutchlander exept to the Frisans and Groningers themselves). Or how they are any different from the prejudices college frat boys have towards left-wing activists, and vice-versa. Most of such prejudices don’t survive personal contact. However, if at the least sign of interpersonal trouble (people sometimes don’t get along regardless of their color) a black/jew/fat/thin/muslim/blond cries “discrimination!!!” you might encounter one of three responses, all of which won’t do the friendship any good. Most Dutch will either: -start defending themselves, (usually making things worse in the process by using all sorts of generalizations) or -they will withdraw from the contact entirely, -or they will get angry at what they perceive as, basically, over the top American-style Political Correctness, slander, and generally being an oversensitive bad sport. I don’t know you, **Wake up call** , but couldn’t that have been (partly) the case with the Dutch women you met? It seems the Dutch can only think of one group as “the hostile other” at a time. Shortly after the Worldwar II we had many Indonesian immigrants, and they endured some mistrust and discrimination. In 1975, half of Surinam emigrated to Amsterdam and discriminating against blacks was a problem for the next 20 years or so. Nowadays, no-one even notices somebody being Surinam or Indonesian (if you are otherwise well adjusted). Discriminating against Muslims is the next problem, and I trust it will go the same way. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-dutch-so-liberal-and-tolerant/274368/62 "2004-12-10T20:58:44Z")
But aren’t most Muslims in the Netherlands from Indonesia? Or are the Indonesians muslims without being “muslims”? ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-dutch-so-liberal-and-tolerant/274368/63 "2004-12-10T21:30:33Z")
**Lemur866** , according to this site: [http://www.islamenburgerschap.nl/cmo2.html](http://www.islamenburgerschap.nl/cmo2.html) 319.000 Turken [Turkish] 285.000 Marokkanen [Morrocan] 42.000 Westerse islamieten [Western muslims] 41.000 Irakezen [Iraqi] 34.000 Afghanen [Afghan] 31.000 Surinamers [Surinam] 28.000 Iraniërs [Iran] 28.000 Somaliërs [Somalia] 112.000 Overige herkomstgroeperingen [remaining origins] I guess the Indonesians are in the last group. _This is from 2003, btw._ ---
**Author:** ![Wake\_up\_call](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/dec6dc/32.png) [@Wake\_up\_call](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wake_up_call)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-dutch-so-liberal-and-tolerant/274368/64 "2004-12-11T02:30:01Z")
> [@gum](#): > > So…, You can’t find anything about Dutch racism towards blacks on the internet, huh. > > It’s the holiday season and I’m quite busy, but if you give me some time, I’ll go door-to-door and ask 16 million people their views on blacks, okay? 😃 A [black community analysis](http://www.blink.org.uk/pdescription.asp?key=211&mid=%20&grp=18&cat=104) of the latest report from the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC) indicates that Netherlands is having a striking increase in racist incidents. Page 4 of [this report](http://www.imadr.org/geneva/2004/64thCERD.2004.pdf)indicates that racist and xenophobic incidents in The Netherlands, particularly manifestations of discriminatory attitudes towards ethnic minorities are still present. Page 8 of the same report says that The de facto segregation of schools along racial lines has been of increasing concern in the Netherlands. Schools with a high percentage of ‘black’ students are perceived to be of lower quality and the resulting ‘white flight’ of children to other schools has created a number of schools that do not reflect the racial composition of their neighborhoods. [This report](http://www.unhchr.ch/tbs/doc.nsf/898586b1dc7b4043c1256a450044f331/4c1507fcdad1a37bc1256deb004c0efc/%24FILE/G0344359.pdf) shows the steps the Dutch Government is taking to reduce racial discrimination in Netherlands. You don’t need to go door-to-door and ask 16 million people their views. [Here](http://www.lbr.nl/?node=439&PHPSESSID=ea7f125bca5ffef98cb03b467423ba63)is a cite on the state of racism in Netherlands. It is in Dutch language. Unfortunately, I cannot read Dutch. Another authority on the subject is Professor Theo VAN BOVEN, University of Maastricht, Netherlands. You may want to just call on him, rather than 16 million people. To get a clearer view of the state of racial discrimination in Netherlands, you really need to read the 23 page report titled “F-NET-22” written and published by the National Bureau against Racial Discrimination (located in Netherlands). [Here](http://eumc.eu.int/eumc/material/pub/Art13/ART13_Netherlands-en.pdf) is a 38 page report on the current Anti Discrimination Legislation in Netherlands. The Article 137 of the Dutch Criminal Code sets a maximum penalty for dissemination of discriminatory utterances to one year’s imprisonment or a fine of 11,250 Euros (about $14,000). If discrimination and intolerance are not flourishing in Netherlands, why do the Dutch have so many laws against discrimination? Now, please do not get me wrong. I am NOT saying the Dutch are racist. And I have never told any Dutch person (including my past dates or my current Dutch friends) that they are overtly or covertly racist. In fact, if Netherlands had a decent weather 12 months per year (like San Diego), it would be my ideal place to live. However, I did make few personal observations while I was in Netherlands, getting close enough with some Dutch that they could share their inner feelings without hiding them. I never said a thing to any of them about what they expressed. I merely shared those observations in this thread. No offense. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-dutch-so-liberal-and-tolerant/274368/65 "2004-12-11T13:11:05Z")
**Wake up call** , thanks for your elaborate post. However, I think most of your points can be adequately countered. All data you supplied are _about Dutch ethnic minorities as a whole_, so they are about Gays, Moroccans, Turks, Surinams, Ambonese, Indonesians, Bosnians, Asians, Jews, and all people who come here as political/economical refugees from all over the world. The word “black” to lump and describe them (as in “black” schools) may give, to an American the wrong impression, namely that black=negroid. That is not true. There is currently an outburst of racism at Moroccans and Turks, ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Gutgore\_Blooddrink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Captain\_Gutgore\_Blooddrink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Gutgore_Blooddrink)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-dutch-so-liberal-and-tolerant/274368/66 "2004-12-11T13:45:33Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Thanks, MAASTRICT. I have always wondered why most Europeans have essentially become non-religious! Take Ireland, for example…up until the 1960’s, the RC church was very powerful, and dictated social policy. Now, hardley anyone attends church regularly…and the Church is steadily becoming less relevant in people’s lives. In Germany, most of the great cathedrals stand almost empty on Sundays…why is this? I also recall reading that most of the great monasteries are expected to closein the coming years-few young men wish to become monks these days. > **Europe will probably see the end of Christainity (as a majority religion) within 30 years…this is probably one of the most significant transformations in modern times, yet very few sociologists are commenting upoin it! What does this mean for the world?** Bolding is mine. This is a hell of an interesting theory and doesn’t deserve to be damned to obscurity in the middle of all this Cloggie praising. 😉 Seriously, I’m going to open a thread just concerning this. -Resident MeatBeast ---
**Author:** ![Tusculan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecd19e/32.png) [@Tusculan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tusculan)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-dutch-so-liberal-and-tolerant/274368/67 "2004-12-11T14:40:21Z")
**|Wake up call** , there’s no reason to doubt your personal experience, but I would advise you not to extrapolate from there. Undoubtedly there are persons who won’t consider dating someone with a different skin colour. They exist in The Netherlands, as well as in the U.S. That in itself is not racism. Everyone is allowed their personal preference for romantic interests. Furthermore, that attitude is not generally shared. I regularly see mixed couples in Amsterdam. There are also several mixed celebrity couples. I’ve never noticed general disapproval or other remarks about such couples. That shows that (1) there are persons who don’t see a different skin colour as an absolute ‘bar’ (2) society doesn’t have a general problem with mixed marriages. From what I understand, the sentiments in the U.S. on this account are not at this point yet. Finally, this doesn’t of course mean that The Netherlands is devoid of racism. There are people who are opposed to mixed marriages, but this thread is not about those people, it is about the general attitude in society. There are high-profile incidents, but generally speaking, as a non-white person myself I feel still secure in the knowledge that racists are still a minority, albeit a vocal and virulent one. ---
**Author:** ![rngadam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/97f17d/32.png) [@rngadam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rngadam)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-dutch-so-liberal-and-tolerant/274368/68 "2004-12-13T02:57:32Z")
My only experience with a Dutch went something like this: “Canadians are lazy” “You can’t trust Chineses” “Japaneses are perverts” Note that he was my boss in a Japanese company and that I’m Chinese-Canadian ;-). Very loud guy, very aggressive who liked to make un-PC jokes. My wife was scared of him at the beginning. It eventually got better but he was a very direct guy, but basically good. Think “Shrek” ;-). He also told me that you can’t characterize Dutchs by Amsterdam. In any country I think you can’t generalize the population of a whole country from the inhabitants of their metropolis (Tokyo, NY, Paris, Montreal, etc). The thing is, most of us only go to visit the big cities… ---
**Author:** ![Wake\_up\_call](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/dec6dc/32.png) [@Wake\_up\_call](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wake_up_call)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-dutch-so-liberal-and-tolerant/274368/69 "2004-12-13T08:08:56Z")
> [@rngadam](#): > > he was a very direct guy, but basically good That is the thing about the Dutch. They ARE basically good. As I said in a previous post, if they did not have such a shitty weather, I would love to live in Holland. I don’t know if you have experienced Nigeria. But if it wasn’t for the KLM Station Manager (from Utrecht) who knew the ways of Nigerians, I would have never gotten out of Lagos alive. The Dutch are the true sign of civilization, especially if you are in places like Nigeria. The Dutch know how to blend with the locals, like no other nationality can. As for the racism issue, you won’t feel it in the big cities like Amsterdam. Just like the red-necks in the US south, you particularly notice it in the small towns in Netherlands, which is where I was hanging around. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-dutch-so-liberal-and-tolerant/274368/70 "2004-12-13T08:13:12Z")
> [@Wake up call](#): > > As for the racism issue, you won’t feel it in the big cities like Amsterdam. Just like the red-necks in the US south, you particularly notice it in the small towns in Netherlands, which is where I was hanging around. Ya, those southerners are so damned racist. How dare they categorize entire groups of people based on stereotypes? ---
**Author:** ![Wake\_up\_call](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/dec6dc/32.png) [@Wake\_up\_call](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wake_up_call)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-dutch-so-liberal-and-tolerant/274368/71 "2004-12-13T10:04:50Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Ya, those southerners are so damned racist. How dare they categorize entire groups of people based on stereotypes? Well, **Butrus** , this thread is about the issues of tolerance and liberalism. As for “Those Southerners”, they already demonstrated on November 2nd where they stand on these issues. No stereotyping is needed. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-dutch-so-liberal-and-tolerant/274368/72 "2004-12-13T12:38:22Z")
> [@Wake up call](#): > > Well, **Butrus** , this thread is about the issues of tolerance and liberalism. As for “Those Southerners”, they already demonstrated on November 2nd where they stand on these issues. No stereotyping is needed. Those Southerners. And those Midwesterners. And those Mountain Staters. And those Way-The-Hell-Up-Past-Canuckia’ers. Is this the new NeverSayDieLiberal meme now? That we can lay blame for this election on the South? ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-dutch-so-liberal-and-tolerant/274368/73 "2004-12-13T12:53:32Z")
> [@Wake up call](#): > > That is the thing about the Dutch. They ARE basically good. > The Dutch are the true sign of civilization, especially if you are in places like Nigeria. The Dutch know how to **blend with the locals** , like no other nationality can. Curious… Dutch “blend with the locals”… never heard that one. Especially since they are so white and tall 😃 I heard they were the highest (or one of the highest) per capita with charities and foreign aid. Seriously… how is this blending thing ? Respect for local culture ? Or they in fact manage to mix in well ? ---
**Author:** ![Wake\_up\_call](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/dec6dc/32.png) [@Wake\_up\_call](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wake_up_call)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-dutch-so-liberal-and-tolerant/274368/74 "2004-12-13T14:41:39Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Is this the new NeverSayDieLiberal meme now? That we can lay blame for this election on the South? I was referring to the concentration of evangelical, born-again, “Rapture” followers. Given the OP, it would be interesting to compare their Per Capita locations compared to the Netherlands. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-dutch-so-liberal-and-tolerant/274368/75 "2004-12-13T14:55:13Z")
> [@Wake up call](#): > > I was referring to the concentration of evangelical, born-again, “Rapture” followers. Given the OP, it would be interesting to compare their Per Capita locations compared to the Netherlands. I misunderstood you, then. Sorry for jumping all over you. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-dutch-so-liberal-and-tolerant/274368.md?page=3)