# Why are English translations of Chinese so "unphonetic?" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 2, 2005, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-english-translations-of-chinese-so-unphonetic/319758 "2005-09-02T17:30:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![The\_Controvert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dec6dc/32.png) [@The\_Controvert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Controvert)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-english-translations-of-chinese-so-unphonetic/319758/41 "2005-10-06T16:00:08Z")
Well, I think “Ching” is a closer representation than “Kwing”. Which do you prefer, “Peking”, “Beijing”, or “Bay Jing”? ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-english-translations-of-chinese-so-unphonetic/319758/42 "2005-10-06T16:07:00Z")
Once again, since you appear to have completely stopped responding to any of the points I’ve made, I see no need to continue this discussion. You’ve made it quite clear that you have little understanding of the issues involved, and you’re focusing on one single context which is at most a minor aspect of the use of pinyin. Either read my posts and respond to the points I make, or go away, because watching you repeat yourself again and again is growing wearisome. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-english-translations-of-chinese-so-unphonetic/319758/43 "2005-10-06T16:13:19Z")
> [@The Controvert](#): > > Well, I think “Ching” is a closer representation than “Kwing”. Which do you prefer, “Peking”, “Beijing”, or “Bay Jing”? Actually, I prefer “Payching.” In my personal opinion, it is a mistake to use b,g,d to represent the unaspirated p,k,t. I think Wade-Giles had the better of it on this point. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-english-translations-of-chinese-so-unphonetic/319758/44 "2005-10-06T16:14:53Z")
Oh, and so far as I know “Peking” and “Beijing,” are not transliterating the same phonemic sequence. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Controvert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dec6dc/32.png) [@The\_Controvert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Controvert)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-english-translations-of-chinese-so-unphonetic/319758/45 "2005-10-06T16:25:03Z")
“Sh-yea Sh-yea” (or “Xie xie” or “Zuh eye Zuh eye” if you prefer). In other words, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-english-translations-of-chinese-so-unphonetic/319758/46 "2005-10-06T17:18:59Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Oh, and so far as I know “Peking” and “Beijing,” are not transliterating the same phonemic sequence. Good point. When the thread was covering its original topic, I think I mentioned that Peking is an old unsystematic transliteration of its Cantonese or Shanghainese name. So it doesn’t really have anything to do with this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Controvert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dec6dc/32.png) [@The\_Controvert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Controvert)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-english-translations-of-chinese-so-unphonetic/319758/47 "2005-10-06T20:04:57Z")
Another unphonetic example is the word for small, which is typically written as “Hsiao” or “Xiao”. The correct way should be “Sh-yow”. ---
**Author:** ![dotchan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@dotchan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dotchan)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-english-translations-of-chinese-so-unphonetic/319758/48 "2005-10-06T20:32:25Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > hijack > > can someone give me the english letter written way to say > > “warlocks can not summon food and drink, mages summon food and drink,” > > I keep getting chinese farmers in world of warcraft asking my lock to summon them bread and drink… > > also if i can get it in korean? I am not entirely certain if they are asking in chinese or korean… but it is 3 words, the last one is ‘bien’ and I do know it isnt german or french=) > > /hijack Would “Sorry, I can’t, please find a mage” suffice? (Tones included) Bao4 qian4, wo3 ban4 bu5 dao4, qing3 zhao3 ge5 fa3 shi1 Now, I’m not really sure whether mages are called “fa3 shi1” in WoW, but I think it’s a common enough term to be understandable. Actual Chinese characters to come when I’m at home. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-english-translations-of-chinese-so-unphonetic/319758/49 "2005-10-06T20:38:14Z")
> [@The Controvert](#): > > Another unphonetic example is the word for small, which is typically written as “Hsiao” or “Xiao”. The correct way should be “Sh-yow”. Not at all. In fact, I’ve always thought the Wade-Giles transcription of that sound was excellent. It certainly is closer than “sh”. But then, since your only argument is that “Systematic transcription is not immediately accessible to people who don’t speak Chinese at all”, well, so what? I’ve given you many reasons why that’s a nonargument - why it’s irrelevant in many situations, why learning systematic transcriptions is not hard, and so forth. You have put forth no argument for why it’s necessary for transliterated Chinese to be immediately accessible to non-Chinese speakers anyway. Many English words have pronunciations that are inconsistent with their spellings. And we use all sorts of foreign words in English that can’t be immediately puzzled out from spelling. If you can’t come up with any argument against the many, many points I’ve made here, why are you still around? Once again you post to make one point. Pinyin isn’t immediately readable to people who don’t speak Chinese. DUH! Until you can come up with a reason why that should be an important consideration at all, let alone our _only_ consideration, what the hell is the point of wasting my time and yours? I can only conclude that you’re continuing to post but refusing to provide any content because you recognize that your argument is indefensible but don’t wish to admit it. That’s just sad. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-english-translations-of-chinese-so-unphonetic/319758/50 "2005-10-06T20:48:45Z")
Controvert: You really are not advocating correct transcription. As has been pointed out to you, Pinyin is not designed for you personally, although you certainly seem to think it should have been. Excalibre, an actual linguist, btw, as I am also, is beating his head against a wall trying to explain to you a simple linguistic fact. You continue to ignore the fact. Why you do so is anyone’s guess. Perhaps you think your examples of “correct pronunciation” trump the factual, logical, and scientific (yes, linguistics is a science) construction of the currently used system of romanisation. They don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-english-translations-of-chinese-so-unphonetic/319758/51 "2005-10-06T20:52:18Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Excalibre, an actual linguist, btw, as I am also, is beating his head against a wall trying to explain to you a simple linguistic fact. I am beating my head against a wall, but I’m not an actual linguist. Just a hobbyist. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-english-translations-of-chinese-so-unphonetic/319758/52 "2005-10-06T20:56:06Z")
One need not be a professional to be competent. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Controvert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dec6dc/32.png) [@The\_Controvert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Controvert)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-english-translations-of-chinese-so-unphonetic/319758/53 "2005-10-06T22:19:08Z")
Hey, isn’t Hong Kong supposed to be pronounced “Shang Gang”? Where did that come from? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-english-translations-of-chinese-so-unphonetic/319758/54 "2005-10-07T00:37:56Z")
In case you haven’t noticed, Hong Kong is in the linguistic area of the Cantonese language. ---
**Author:** ![Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f08c70/32.png) [@Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crowbar_of_Irony_3)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-english-translations-of-chinese-so-unphonetic/319758/55 "2005-10-07T01:40:19Z")
> [@The Controvert](#): > > Don’t give me that native speaker bull… as someone who uses Mandarin in daily life as a Mother Tongue, if someone said “knee how” to me, I’d know exactly what they were talking about. Maybe it’d take a few repeats for you. But it’s a lot closer than “nigh ha oh” (rhymes with Ohio), which truthfully, I wouldn’t be able to understand no matter how many times it’s repeated. What’s so “bull” about me being a native speaker? Just because I am a native speaker doesn’t mean my opinion carries no weight? And as a native speaker, “knee how”, when pronounced as proper _English_, sounds nothing like anything in Manadrin. BTW, since you are a native speaker (which I am assuming you are), find an English-sounding word (or a collection) that can get the meaning of “Zhuge”, “Sima”, “Murong” and “Zuo” (as in ‘left’). Or how about a more common “Have you eaten your fill?” I know English, so I will interpert is a ‘knee how’, unless the person say, “Hey, I am going to talk to you in Chinese,” which I don’t think an average American will follow. Unless you say that, I will have no idea that you are speaking in Mandarin. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Controvert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dec6dc/32.png) [@The\_Controvert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Controvert)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-english-translations-of-chinese-so-unphonetic/319758/56 "2005-10-07T04:14:09Z")
It’s easy to dismiss an idea. It is much harder to be open minded. I have given plenty of examples of other Chinese words and how I would translate them more phonetically in my previous posts. I don’t understand most of the words you are asking me about, hence the problem with standard English translations of Chinese (i.e. the OP). But rather than throw my hands up with a “no idea what you’re talking about” (which is a cop out), I’ll make a sincere effort to translate. I know the word “Zuo” because you were kind enough to put “left” in your post. I can tell you that I prefer something like “Z-whoa” or “Zwoh”. Less ambiguity by my ear. “Have you eaten your fill” could be “Knee Yo May Yo Chee Bow\*?” - Bow as in “bow wow” or “take a bow”. I’m sure I am not doing this perfectly, but you get the idea. “Chee” for “eat” is not ideal, but I only spent a minute thinking about it. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-english-translations-of-chinese-so-unphonetic/319758/57 "2005-10-07T04:45:14Z")
Excalibre, if it helps you to remember “knee how” for “ni hao” to learn a few words of Chinese, well then more power to you. However, can you go out on a limb and admit that your own personal transliteration system of a language you don’t speak fluently might not be considered new and improved by the rest of the world??? What you’ve got are some similar language sounds in American that might help some people that speak American English grasp the sounds represented by hanyu pinyin. It would probably be of zero value to anyone that doesn’t speak American English and probably make the task of learning Chinese even more of a barrier. University level beginning Chinese classes spend less than a week on learning pinyin, and most students have it completely wired within a month. And then the whole world of computer programs, dictionaries, etc are opened up. When I first learned Japanese, a mnemonic used in the first class was: “Ali’s got to go” and “don’t touch my mustache” for “arigato” and “doitashimashite” as a way to remember “thank you” and “you’re welcome.” It was of dubious value to me during that first lesson but would be a pretty unworkable way to develop a romanization system. “Ali’s got to go” for your input on this thread. ---
**Author:** ![WonJohnSoup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f17d59/32.png) [@WonJohnSoup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WonJohnSoup)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-english-translations-of-chinese-so-unphonetic/319758/58 "2005-10-07T06:19:08Z")
> [@The Controvert](#): > > Hey, isn’t Hong Kong supposed to be pronounced “Shang Gang”? Where did that come from? The most repeated explanation I’ve heard is that no one really knows where it came from, but that the most likely scenario were Dutch traders trying to spell out what they heard from the Cantonese speakers in the area. And under your system, it’d be shang gaung, not shang gangbang. Or maybe shang gong, like the instrument. Oh wait, you already used ‘gong’ for gong fu, but with a different pronunciation. Forget it. On that note about pinyin in Taiwan, I just was there last year. I heard there’s lots of politics mired in it, and so some areas have implemented some standardized form of pinyin more than others. I know that when I was in Taipei, you could literally walk down a street and have the street sign change spelling on you within a block or two. ---
**Author:** ![Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f08c70/32.png) [@Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crowbar_of_Irony_3)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-english-translations-of-chinese-so-unphonetic/319758/59 "2005-10-07T15:54:40Z")
> [@The Controvert](#): > > It’s easy to dismiss an idea. It is much harder to be open minded. We must be careful being too open-minded, lest our brain fall out > [@](#): > > I have given plenty of examples of other Chinese words and how I would translate them more phonetically in my previous posts. Your examples don’t even cover the basic, necessary Mandarin that one needs to know to use it on a daily basis. > [@](#): > > I don’t understand most of the words you are asking me about, hence the problem with standard English translations of Chinese (i.e. the OP). But rather than throw my hands up with a “no idea what you’re talking about” (which is a cop out), I’ll make a sincere effort to translate. I am speaking Manadrin. Zhuge Liang is the Prime Minster of the Shu-Han kingdom during the Romance of the Three Kingdoms period. Now, try translating that into your “English-as-Manadrin” scheme. > [@](#): > > I know the word “Zuo” because you were kind enough to put “left” in your post. I can tell you that I prefer something like “Z-whoa” or “Zwoh”. Less ambiguity by my ear. Not to _me_ and the tens of thousands of other _Chineses_. > [@](#): > > “Have you eaten your fill” could be “Knee Yo May Yo Chee Bow\*?” > > - Bow as in “bow wow” or “take a bow”. > > I’m sure I am not doing this perfectly, but you get the idea. “Chee” for “eat” is not ideal, but I only spent a minute thinking about it. Chee is _not_ English. That’s hanyu piyin already. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Controvert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dec6dc/32.png) [@The\_Controvert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Controvert)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-english-translations-of-chinese-so-unphonetic/319758/60 "2005-10-07T16:07:00Z")
Ok, I’ll admit my system isn’t perfect. The current system is even less perfect, IMHO. To answer the OP, the reason why nobody improved the system is readily apparent. Just read all the howls in this thread as soon as someone tries to go outside the system. I think people are more concerned about protecting the status quo than making things more readable or phonetic. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-english-translations-of-chinese-so-unphonetic/319758.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-english-translations-of-chinese-so-unphonetic/319758.md?page=4)