# Why are fantasy novels always set in a medieval European setting? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 24, 2014, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-fantasy-novels-always-set-in-a-medieval-european-setting/691561 "2014-06-24T20:59:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-fantasy-novels-always-set-in-a-medieval-european-setting/691561/41 "2014-06-26T05:36:44Z")
Patricia C. Wrede’s Frontier Magic series is set in an alternate America in a world where magic is common, and where there never were American Indians but instead there is an entire menagerie of prehistoric and magical wildlife. Steam dragons, mammoths, swarm weasels, that sort of thing. It’s set after their version of the Civil War and they still haven’t reached the west coast. > [@Sasquatch](#): > > It isn’t that strong in fantasy elements, but check out _ **Who Fears Death** _ by Nnedi Okorafor for an Africa based story. _The Leopard’s Daughter_ by Lee Killough is another good fantasy novel set in ancient Africa. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-fantasy-novels-always-set-in-a-medieval-european-setting/691561/42 "2014-06-26T07:44:34Z")
> [@susan](#): > > And the characters in Earthsea aren’t white (except Tehanu, IIRC). Yup, she describes them as copper skinned. The description of the people and of their boars is really similar to what the people and boats in norhthern Sumatra look like. Her parents were prominent anthropologists who did a lot of work in Indonesia. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-fantasy-novels-always-set-in-a-medieval-european-setting/691561/43 "2014-06-26T08:01:24Z")
> [@danhanegan](#): > > Lois McMaster Bujold has written a four book series called The Sharing Knife. The protagonist’s culture, the “lakewalkers”, seem to me to resemble native American tribes in some ways. Indeed they do. That series was based on a North American background. For instance, in the 3rd book, the characters take a trip on a flatboat. All the river stuff, including the clearing out of a band of river bandits, was based on late 18th/early 19th century (before the steamboat) river culture and history. She even based one of the characters on Daniel Boone. However, the city at the mouth of the river was based on Nachez, not New Orleans. BTW, in support of the OP, she’s had readers complain that this or that animal or plant[sup]1[/sup] was not native to Europe. Obviously these fans were assuming the usual European-based fantasy. [sup]1[/sup] Tolkien was guilty of this (pipeweed and potatos) which no doubt sensitized fans to the potential problem. ---
**Author:** ![Meurglys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/258eb7/32.png) [@Meurglys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meurglys)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-fantasy-novels-always-set-in-a-medieval-european-setting/691561/44 "2014-06-26T10:51:17Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > I seem to recall someone writing a Sumerian fantasy novel once - anyone recall the title? No I don’t mean Gilgamesh, I mean a modern fantasy novel that was supposed to be set in ancient Sumeria. Just to answer this, you’re probably thinking of [Between the Rivers](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Between_the_Rivers) by Harry Turtledove. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-fantasy-novels-always-set-in-a-medieval-european-setting/691561/45 "2014-06-26T11:45:13Z")
madmonk28 writes (about Ursula Le Guin): \> Her parents were prominent anthropologists who did a lot of work in Indonesia. Alfred Kroeber was an anthropologist, but I can’t find anything saying that he did anything with Indonesia. Theodora Kroeber studied some anthropology, but she apparently never worked as anthropologist, and her graduate degree was in clinical psychology. Yes, she wrote _Ishi in Two Worlds_ and _Ishi, The Last of His Tribe_, but that makes her a writer, not an anthropologist: > **[Alfred Kroeber](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_L._Kroeber)** > > Alfred Louis Kroeber (/ˈkroʊbər/ KROH-bər; June 11, 1876 – October 5, 1960) was an American cultural anthropologist. He received his PhD under Franz Boas at Columbia University in 1901, the first doctorate in anthropology awarded by Columbia. He was also the first professor appointed to the Department of Anthropology at the University of California, Berkeley. He played an integral role in the early days of its Museum of Anthropology, where he served as director from 1909 through 1947. Kroeb Kro... > **[Theodora Kroeber](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodora_Kroeber)** > > Theodora Kroeber (/ˈkroʊbər/ KROH-bər; née Theodora Covel Kracaw;\[a\] March 24, 1897 – July 4, 1979) was an American writer and anthropologist, best known for her accounts of several Native Californian cultures. Born in Denver, Colorado, Kroeber grew up in the mining town of Telluride, and worked briefly as a nurse. She attended the University of California, Berkeley (UC Berkeley), for her undergraduate studies, graduating with a major in psychology in 1919, and received a master's degree from... ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-fantasy-novels-always-set-in-a-medieval-european-setting/691561/46 "2014-06-26T15:55:39Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > BTW, in support of the OP, she’s had readers complain that this or that animal or plant[sup]1[/sup] was not native to Europe. Obviously these fans were assuming the usual European-based fantasy. > > [sup]1[/sup] Tolkien was guilty of this (pipeweed and potatos) which no doubt sensitized fans to the potential problem. Guilty of what? That’s Middle Earth, not Europe. They also had athelas, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-fantasy-novels-always-set-in-a-medieval-european-setting/691561/47 "2014-06-26T18:37:31Z")
> [@Earth001](#): > > This is something that I don’t really understand. As a fan of fantasy novels it seems that all the novels that I have read are stuck in a medieval European Fantasy setting. There are not that many fantasy works that have a native American setting, or a Chinese setting, or Arabian fantasy. I would like to know why is it that European Fantasy is so popular and why not the other cultures? I’d like to recommend _Earthsea_ by Ursula K. LeGuin, which is set in a world of islands and archipelagos, and _The Sharing Knife_ by Louis McMaster Bujold which is set in North America. Arabian settings were the thing in the late 19th Century and early 20th Century, but a lot of the stories are out of print. If you can find the titles you might be able to locate some on Project Gutenberg. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-fantasy-novels-always-set-in-a-medieval-european-setting/691561/48 "2014-06-26T19:47:37Z")
> [@Max\_the\_Immortal](#): > > The Forgotten Realms setting, which boasts many novels and several popular video game series (_Baldur’s Gate_, _Neverwinter Nights_, and others) is kind of medieval European at first blush, but doesn’t really fit upon further scrutiny. The tech level ranges mostly from late bronze age to early Renaissance, but there are ways in which the societies of the setting differ vastly from medieval Europe. For one thing, religion plays a vastly different role in people’s lives, and there’s a sense of pluralism that allows dozens or even hundreds of religions to coexist with only sporadic violence (some of those religions are explicitly evil, after all). Women’s rights are more similar to those of a modern Western society than to what you’d have seen in medieval Europe. Technology doesn’t advance very quickly because the best and brightest mostly become clerics and wizards rather than doctors and engineers. > > Sure, there are castles and swords and stuff, but the _mindset_ of the people is very far from medieval Europe. Since it is a setting for gaming first and foremost they made sure to populate it with a wide variety of environs and Governments to help provide whatever setting someone would want for their adventures. ---
**Author:** ![FlyingRat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/59ef9b/32.png) [@FlyingRat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingRat)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-fantasy-novels-always-set-in-a-medieval-european-setting/691561/49 "2014-06-26T20:45:52Z")
Elizabeth Bear’s recent _Eternal Sky_ trilogy (_Range of Ghosts_, _Shattered Pillars_, and _Steles of the Sky_) is set in a fantasy-analogue of 8th-13th-century Central Asia. The main characters are from the Mongol-analogue and Imperial Tibet-analogue cultures, with the religious fanatics from the west (who worship a female Scholar-God) and a crumbling empire of scattered princelings to the east playing supporting roles. The only white characters are brought in as an afterthought (Rus-analogues who inadvertently get a village or two attacked in the course of other events). It’s a really, really, good series. ---
**Author:** ![GreenElf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@GreenElf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenElf)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-fantasy-novels-always-set-in-a-medieval-european-setting/691561/50 "2014-06-27T08:19:02Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I’d add fairy tales (e.g. Grimm’s). > > And, LOTR is less medieval-European than some fantasies. No feudal system, no knights in armor, etc. Given Tolkien’s background, it’s no surprise that Middle Earth has a somewhat European feel, but to me it’s more timeless-European than medieval-European. > > Personally, I prefer fantasy settings that aren’t really a copy of _any_ existing historical culture, but rather an original creation. But “lord” is a common medieval title, and Tolkien wrote a version of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. His fantasy setting seems quite medieval to me anyhow. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-fantasy-novels-always-set-in-a-medieval-european-setting/691561/51 "2014-06-27T08:35:06Z")
The Shire always struck me as being similar to rural England about 1800. Sure, it has lots of things that seem like vague left-overs from a Medievalesque time, but so did England of about 1800. (And the mere word “lord” is only vaguely related to Medieval times. It still exists today in the U.K. That doesn’t mean that the present-day U.K. is stuck in the Middle Ages.) Yeah, Tolkien was a scholar of the Middle Ages. That doesn’t mean that he couldn’t write about a setting that was broader in scope than that. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-fantasy-novels-always-set-in-a-medieval-european-setting/691561/52 "2014-06-27T09:36:00Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > Indeed they do. That series was based on a North American background. For instance, in the 3rd book, the characters take a trip on a flatboat. All the river stuff, including the clearing out of a band of river bandits, was based on late 18th/early 19th century (before the steamboat) river culture and history. She even based one of the characters on Daniel Boone. However, the city at the mouth of the river was based on Nachez, not New Orleans. > > BTW, in support of the OP, she’s had readers complain that this or that animal or plant[sup]1[/sup] was not native to Europe. Obviously these fans were assuming the usual European-based fantasy. > > [sup]1[/sup] Tolkien was guilty of this (pipeweed and potatos) which no doubt sensitized fans to the potential problem. From the authors notes: **F** eeling that my memories of houseboating on the Ohio River in my youth weren’t quite enough to support my tale, I turned with great reading pleasure to additional sources. I quickly found that while material on steamboating ran the length of the Mississippi, the earlier era of keelboats, flatboats, and muscle power was much less widely documented. Especially worth sharing with the reader curious for more are: _The Keelboat Age on Western Waters_ (1941) by L.D. Baldwin; _Old Times on the Upper Mississippi: The recollections of a steamboat pilot from 1854 to 1863_ (1909) by George Byron Merrick; _A-Rafting on the Mississip’_(1928) by Charles Edward Russell; _A Narrative of the Life of David Crockett, by Himself_ (1834) (Bison Books facsimile reprint 1987); and, rather a prize because it was only printed in a limited edition of 750 copies, _The Adventures of T.C. Collins—Boatman: Twenty-four Years on the Western Waters, 1849–1873_, (1985) compiled and edited by Herbert L. Roush, Sr. The Merrick, the Russell, the Crockett, and the Collins were all authentic firsthand accounts, immensely valuable for the kind of detail that cannot be found in general histories. I owe Russell for Whit’s memorable phrase when falling in love at first sight with a great river because I could not sum up those feelings any more perfectly and Crockett, not only for the flatboat-sinking incident, for inspiration for the charming character of Ford Chicory—himself. I heartily recommend this autobiography, which seems to have been penned as an early political memoir; its politics have been pared away by time, but its personal aspects remain riveting to this day. [and her father is Robert Charles McMaste[[URL=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lois\_McMaster\_Bujold#cite\_note-5”]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lois_McMaster_Bujold#cite_note-4)r the editor of the monumental _Nondestructive Testing Handbook_[URL=“[Lois McMaster Bujold - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lois_McMaster_Bujold#cite_note-6)”] generally referred to as _McMaster on Materials_.] No idea why they assume that it is set in europe, it is pretty plain if you start at the beginning of the series that it is set more or less in the Ohio/Mississippi River valleys and the area just south of the great lakes - in a fairly post apocalyptic time - though it could be an alternate Earth as it had genetically created ‘mages’ that caused the whole problem they were trying to clean up. ---
**Author:** ![GreenElf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@GreenElf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenElf)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-fantasy-novels-always-set-in-a-medieval-european-setting/691561/53 "2014-06-27T13:37:22Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > The Shire always struck me as being similar to rural England about 1800. Sure, it has lots of things that seem like vague left-overs from a Medievalesque time, but so did England of about 1800. (And the mere word “lord” is only vaguely related to Medieval times. It still exists today in the U.K. That doesn’t mean that the present-day U.K. is stuck in the Middle Ages.) Yeah, Tolkien was a scholar of the Middle Ages. That doesn’t mean that he couldn’t write about a setting that was broader in scope than that. Tolkien’s LOTR fantasy setting had quite a bit of medieval influence. The characters dressed in medieval attire, Strider was a ranger which is based on Robin Hood, the Prancing Pony inn, and the final parting by ship back to the isle of the elves is reminiscent of the Arthurian longship to Avalon. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2014, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-fantasy-novels-always-set-in-a-medieval-european-setting/691561/54 "2014-06-28T00:42:33Z")
Yes, as I said, it had lots of leftovers from quasi-medieval times, just like you might expect in about 1800. How can you say that all the characters dressed in medieval attire? Where are the clothes described? I’m talking about the book, not the movies. Strider has only a minor resemblance to Robin Hood. There are pubs in England today with names like The Prancing Pony. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2014, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-fantasy-novels-always-set-in-a-medieval-european-setting/691561/55 "2014-06-28T01:22:22Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > No idea why they assume that it is set in europe, it is pretty plain if you start at the beginning of the series that it is set more or less in the Ohio/Mississippi River valleys and the area just south of the great lakes - in a fairly post apocalyptic time - though it could be an alternate Earth as it had genetically created ‘mages’ that caused the whole problem they were trying to clean up. If you don’t know anything about the Ohio valley that is not obvious. It was obvious to _me_ because I’ve live around the Great Lakes most of my life, but someone who, for example, lives in California or Florida without a good understanding of US geography (sadly, all too common a case these days) might not pick up on that. Worse yet for someone from Europe or Australia or wherever. ---
**Author:** ![GreenElf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@GreenElf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenElf)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2014, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-fantasy-novels-always-set-in-a-medieval-european-setting/691561/56 "2014-06-28T06:37:00Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Yes, as I said, it had lots of leftovers from quasi-medieval times, just like you might expect in about 1800. How can you say that all the characters dressed in medieval attire? Where are the clothes described? I’m talking about the book, not the movies. Strider has only a minor resemblance to Robin Hood. There are pubs in England today with names like The Prancing Pony. I know about modern pubs, but these things, heraldry, edda, mainly go back to medieval settings. I read somewhere that Tolkien based his Shire upon England circa 1600-1800, so you’re right about that. I was responding to a post, that noted it as a European setting rather than medieval per se, that made me think more of Harry Potter. I suppose the LOTR characters could have dressed like Harry Potter, Narnia, Alice in Wonderland or something like that, the buckle shoes would be post-medieval, but I think people generally view LOTR as a medieval fantasy setting. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-fantasy-novels-always-set-in-a-medieval-european-setting/691561.md?page=2)