# Why are frequent churchgoers more likely to support torture? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 1, 2009, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017 "2009-05-01T20:25:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![B.Serum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/b.serum/32/14266_2.png) [@B.Serum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/B.Serum)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/1 "2009-05-01T20:25:08Z")
There’s a topic from CNN’s Jack Cafferty [here](http://caffertyfile.blogs.cnn.com/2009/05/01/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/) and I suspect Dopers will provide the best feedback. The Pew study he references is [here](http://pewforum.org/docs/?DocID=156). So let’s debate it a bit here and then contribute over there. I think it has to do with a black & white “good vs. evil” paradigm, they feel that it’s okay to torture “evil” people. I’d be interested what the research would have found if they were asked if it’s okay for our enemies to do the same torture to us. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/2 "2009-05-01T20:47:49Z")
As best I can tell, the survey is comparing only White members of all religious groups to nonbelievers of all races. The results might be different if Black, Hispanic, Asian, and Native American Christians had been counted the result might have different. I’ve never understood why pollsters frequently seem to think that non-whites shouldn’t be allowed to speak in their polls. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/3 "2009-05-01T20:56:49Z")
**ITR** , I think you’re reading it wrong. There is a section spelling out White this, and non-Hispanic the other, but below that it is merely breaking between Attends Church and Doesn’t Attend Church (for sake of brevity) with no mention of the ethnicity of any of the goes or non-goers. I could be reading it wrong too, I suppose, but apart from the Why Do I Care What Only Whites Think section I thought it was pretty clear. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/4 "2009-05-01T21:01:59Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > As best I can tell, the survey is comparing only White members of all religious groups to nonbelievers of all races. The results might be different if Black, Hispanic, Asian, and Native American Christians had been counted the result might have different. Actually, it’s churchgoing that seems to be the statistic in question, rather than belief, per se. > [@](#): > > I’ve never understood why pollsters frequently seem to think that non-whites shouldn’t be allowed to speak in their polls. I think generally when it happens it’s more from an urge to control as many variables as possible. If what you’re trying to study is not race, then making sure all your data comes from one race means you don’t then have to go into it to further seperate or account for any differences arising from that. And the majority of the U.S. is white, so if you want to go with the largest possible sample controlling for race, it does make sense to go for white respondents. There’s more of them. Of course, there’s still problems with this, but I don’t think a desire on the part of pollsters to not allowing non-whites to speak in their polls is one of them. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/5 "2009-05-01T21:15:51Z")
At the [Dallas Morning News Religion Blog](http://religionblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2009/04/pew-the-more-often-you-go-to-c.html), this story was posted, and the comments there I think are revealing. From the religious believers: > [@](#): > > Finally a poll I can believe in and very proud to say I’m represented. I attend church at least twice and I’m 100% supportive of “torture” of terrorists. > [@](#): > > People who go to church are more likely to take seriously the problem of evil. Many evangelical Christians will hold an anthropology founded upon the fallen depravity of all people. Those who take evil seriously will also take seriously the need for protection against and abatement of evil… > > On the other hand, those who do not go to church are much more likely to conceive of people as being basically good. If people are basically good, then things like torture (which apparently includes solitary confinement according to an article that I read today, and Barry Manilow albums according to a conversation I had last night) are the cause of evil rather than the means of combatting it. > > History pretty clearly demonstrates the past naïveté of the latter position… > [@](#): > > There is hope for our nation yet. Apparently all the Democrat utopian and pacifist propaganda about Quantanamo has not been assimilated by a paramount percentage of the American people. > [@](#): > > The Bible says an eye for an eye. In the grand scheme of things, waterboarding does not come close to the torture the victims of 9/11 endured. Yes, I am a Christian and I don’t think we should be more concerned about the torture of these evil people and I am certainly not concerned about their rights. Has everyone forgotten what evil deeds they carried out? > [@](#): > > It’s clear that church going christians have a much broader perspective and hold the sanctity of human life in higher regard. The narrowly focused human rightists see only the treatment of the prisoner. The church goers see the greater risk of loss if information isn’t extracted. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/6 "2009-05-01T21:24:31Z")
If those quotations are at all in concord with the views of the group surveyed, then I’d say the answer is that the group tended to approve of torture because they were unable - at least here - to grasp the distinction between ‘suspect’ and ‘terrorist’. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/7 "2009-05-01T21:24:47Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > As best I can tell, the survey is comparing only White members of all religious groups to nonbelievers of all races. The results might be different if Black, Hispanic, Asian, and Native American Christians had been counted the result might have different. I’ve never understood why pollsters frequently seem to think that non-whites shouldn’t be allowed to speak in their polls. We’re white, we’re evil [The Brain]We’re going to take over the world.[/The Brain] Oh well, just another to add to my list of excuses for avoiding church - not like I need one. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/8 "2009-05-01T21:28:03Z")
It seems to me to be another case where there is a disconnect between what Christ said and what Christians believe: [QUOTE=Jesus of Nazareth] You have heard that it was said, “An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth”. But I say to you, do not resist an evildoer. If anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. [/QUOTE] How do they fit that into their literal reading of the Bible? ---
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/9 "2009-05-01T21:38:05Z")
God has obviously blessed America (it says so right here on my dollar) and terrorists harming the blessed country are an affront to God (i.e., EVIL). They deserve what they get and we are justified in taking any action to protect and preserve our children and the authority of God in the face of evil. DUH! IF THEY WEREN’T TERRORISTS, WE WOULD HAVE CAPTURED THEM. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/10 "2009-05-01T21:39:57Z")
I expect it’s because frequent churchgoers are more intensely religious, and Christianity is a fundamentally hateful and sadistic religion, despite all the revisionist rhetoric about peace and love. It got into the position it is today due to the willingness of it’s followers to torture and slaughter and destroy. “We are the Chosen People, and the unbelievers are monsters who will be tortured forever” is not the sort of worldview that produces mercy and compassion. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/11 "2009-05-01T21:43:54Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I expect it’s because frequent churchgoers are more intensely religious, and **Christianity is a fundamentally hateful and sadistic religion, despite all the revisionist rhetoric about peace and love**. It got into the position it is today due to the willingness of it’s followers to torture and slaughter and destroy. “We are the Chosen People, and the unbelievers are monsters who will be tortured forever” is not the sort of worldview that produces mercy and compassion. I don’t practice my somewhat Christian view of the world, but the New Testament is anything but “revisionist history”, and those are the books that people that believe need to live by, and discard the Old Testament out of hand. What part of Jesus’ teachings is evil? ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/12 "2009-05-01T21:55:54Z")
Hell, a lot of chuches have as a centerpiece a huge statue of a guy being tortured. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/13 "2009-05-01T21:57:56Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > What part of Jesus’ teachings is evil? Jesus and what he said are largely irrelevant. I am speaking of Christianity - the beliefs held by Christians - not Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![parthenokinesis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/cc9497/32.png) [@parthenokinesis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/parthenokinesis)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/14 "2009-05-01T22:06:56Z")
As a liberal pinko apatheist I was actually a little shocked and saddened by the numbers. 54 % of churchgoers support torture as opposed to 42 % of the non goers. This suggests that Christians are only 12% more dickish that the general population and that seems low. I’d like to see the data correlated for different characteristics, like education levels, urbanity, income levels and what not. I would venture a guess its the ignorant, fundie toothless cousin-f\*\*\*ers that are buffing the churchgoers numbers, but that could just be my blind ignorant bigotry speaking. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/15 "2009-05-01T22:18:55Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > the willingness of it’s followers to torture and slaughter and destroy. **Der Trihs** , I’m sick to death of seeing you do this over and over and over again. So: It’s = “It is” Its = the possessive case, as in “belonging to it” Memory aid: We don’t write “Hi’s” or “Her’s” (At least I hope you don’t) so why would one write “It’s” for the possessive case? Now go and sin no more! (And to stay on topic, the community mood in my area (devout Calvinists) is that we’re not torturing enough of them long enough or severely enough. Christ’s mercy is for fellow _true_ Christians, not the unbelieving damned.) ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/16 "2009-05-01T22:31:13Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Jesus and what he said are largely irrelevant. I am speaking of Christianity - the beliefs held by Christians - not Jesus. You know, I have a lot of sympathy for your perspective. As a Christian (and mostly a regular churchgoer) myself, I cringe at some of the horseshit heaped out there by people who claim to be following Jesus. But can I point out that there are a lot of active Christians who do not buy into what you castigate. Our message tends to get drowned out by the batshit insane types and the demogogues, but we do try to convey what we understood Jesus to have called us to do. I’ve let this slide repeatedly because I know where you’re coming from, but with a President in office who represents people like me and **Siege** and some of the others who are Christians and liberals orr moderates, can I ask you to at least acknowledge that the Religious Right does not have a monopoly on the term, and that some of us who agree with you on most issues are doing it out of, among other reasons, loyalty to J.C.? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/17 "2009-05-01T22:36:37Z")
I think it’s because acclimatization to a churchgoing environment somewhat inherently acclimatizes you to listening to and accepting the statements of people who are 1) in positions of authority, and 2) who you believe are in the same ‘camp’ as you. Additionally you are led to be used to the idea that people in positions of authority have good reasons for what they’re doing, even if to the layman their ways are mysterious. God-fearing republican politicians will tend to fall into the set of ‘accepted leaders’, and so when they say that torture is justified and necessary, that will have some weight…and there will be reduced doubt that the methods by which they select their torture victims are less than perfect. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/18 "2009-05-01T22:46:30Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#): > > Hell, a lot of chuches have as a centerpiece a huge statue of a guy being tortured. Yeah, but they weren’t trying to get him to talk, but to shut him up. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/19 "2009-05-01T22:48:28Z")
I agree with beggert2, and would posit that regular churchgoers contain a larger proportion of people with Authoritarian personality (compared with non-churchgoers. Note that I’m not saying that all churchgoers have Authoritarian personality - just that there is a larger proportion among regular churchgoers. Authoritarian personalities have traits of > [@](#): > > conventionalism, authoritarian submission, authoritarian aggression, anti-intraception, superstition and stereotypy, power and “toughness,” destructiveness and cynicism, projectivity, and exaggerated concerns over sex. In brief, the authoritarian is predisposed to follow the dictates of a strong leader and traditional, conventional values. [cite from wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarian_personality) These are just the type of people to think that if an authority figure (republicans) says it, then it must be OK. I would also guess that these people are overrepresented in the current Republican membership. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/20 "2009-05-01T22:54:34Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Jesus and what he said are largely irrelevant. I am speaking of Christianity - the beliefs held by Christians - not Jesus. I am amazed that there is a proportion of Christians that fit this description (although certainly not all - Hello **Polycarp**!) From comments written by some self-professed Christians, I really wonder if a) they listen at all when they go to church b) they have even a passing familiarity with the new testament c) they are vaguely aware of the words of Jesus d) their church sermons have ever touched on the true meaning of Christianity e) have they ever heard of the quote written by **Giles** earlier in this thread? Do they know what it means? It’s not in a strange or obscure part of the Bible. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017.md?page=2)