# Why are frequent churchgoers more likely to support torture? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 1, 2009, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017 "2009-05-01T20:25:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/21 "2009-05-01T23:01:52Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I am amazed that there is a proportion of Christians that fit this description (although certainly not all - Hello **Polycarp**!) > > From comments written by some self-professed Christians, I really wonder if > a) they listen at all when they go to church > b) they have even a passing familiarity with the new testament > c) they are vaguely aware of the words of Jesus > d) their church sermons have ever touched on the true meaning of Christianity > e) have they ever heard of the quote written by **Giles** earlier in this thread? Do they know what it means? It’s not in a strange or obscure part of the Bible. In defense of the churchgoers…churches are in many ways like a business. They have to attract and keep attendees by appealing to them in some way. Some do this by making them feel like chosen people, some do this by providing answers to tricky questions, some do this by giving them ways to feel like productive members of a community, some do this by making them feel a closer connection to some God. Few do this by telling them to impoverish themselves, and expose themselves to and coddle their enemies - few that have big followings, anyway! The churchgoers merely reflect the opinions that the churches they attend present. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/22 "2009-05-01T23:25:20Z")
I’d like to see how churchgoing correlates to political views. I’d suspect that frequent churchgoers trend more conservative than non-churchgoers. Note that 62% of evangelical Protestants supported torture, but only 46% of mainline ones did (not much more than 40% unaffiliated.) There isn’t any data to prove this, or even to correlate the frequency of church attendance with affiliation, but I’m betting church attendance is a dependent variable, with evangelical types attending more frequently than mainline types. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/23 "2009-05-01T23:50:46Z")
Heck, Jesus got whipped and nailed to a cross, it didn’t hurt _him_ none. People who complain about being waterboarded are just whiners. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/24 "2009-05-01T23:54:41Z")
I don’t think you can discount the fact that the people who were actually being tortured in the situation that lead to this poll were Muslims. When these Christian churchgoers are asked whether they support torture, they’re hearing the question of whether they support torturing Muslims, specifically Muslims accused of terrorism. I wonder what the result would be if you gave them a hypothetical in which Christians who committed crimes in a Muslim country were being tortured? Would they show the same level of support? ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/25 "2009-05-02T00:41:23Z")
C’mon, churchgoing IS torture! And they love to mention it. Martyrs boiled in oil, rack torture, decapitation, crucifixion, crucifixion, crucifixion… If jesus died a natural death after living a long 33 years (surprised anyone lasted THAT long then), would there even BE christianity? If he died for our sins by eating bad fish, where’s the interest? Hell, if that happened, we’d have droves of people insisting that their fish be rotten. Blowfish wouldn’t require special chefs anymore. You’d see beef and chicken in the grocery store fridges, fish in a cardboard box in it’s own endcap. (I’ll stop there…) 😛 Humans love torture, at least discussing it. If your favorite evening news station said, “Okay, we’re not reporting ANY info on murders anymore!”, say goodbye to them. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/26 "2009-05-02T00:42:37Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Heck, Jesus got whipped and nailed to a cross, it didn’t hurt _him_ none. > People who complain about being waterboarded are just whiners. ^^ 😃 ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/27 "2009-05-02T01:30:32Z")
I did posit last night when discussing this with friends that when you’re taught that the redemption of the entirety of humanity occurred as a result of an act of torture that was willfully undertaken by a man with the power to destroy all of existence (but who held that power in check) you’re less apt to be able to understand the realities or sympathize with the victims of torture of human beings today. But more seriously, I think that this has far more to do with the frightening blending of (Republican) politics and evangelical Christian teaching in the last decade or so than with anything in particular about the Christian faith. I’d bet that if you polled churchgoers in other parts of the world, the numbers would be much, much different. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Skeezix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aca169/32.png) [@Red\_Skeezix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Skeezix)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/28 "2009-05-02T01:31:53Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > I wonder what the result would be if you gave them a hypothetical in which Christians who committed crimes in a Muslim country were being tortured? Would they show the same level of support? As a former churchgoer and someone who was raised in a very evangelical environment, one of the biggest complaints that the church leaders about the former USSR was that they tortured and wrongly imprisoned Christian missionaries (No idea if this was true). Well, I was a child during that time, and that’s what they told us children. So they were obviously against torturing fellow Christians. And Christians seem to pretty much against Hell, where souls are supposedly tortured? So it must be one of those convenient double standards they’re so good at. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/29 "2009-05-02T06:16:17Z")
I am a regular church attender. I do not see how torture can ever justified. How many of us were alive in 1975, and watched the POWs return home? How did we fell about the stories of torture at the Hanoi Hilton? It was wrong then it is wrong now. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/30 "2009-05-02T07:33:38Z")
> [@Snnipe\_70E](#): > > I am a regular church attender. > > I do not see how torture can ever justified. > > How many of us were alive in 1975, and watched the POWs return home? How did we fell about the stories of torture at the Hanoi Hilton? It was wrong then it is wrong now. When we do it, it’s different cuz Gawd is on our side? ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/31 "2009-05-02T09:21:53Z")
Okay, Dopers, unlike many people in LA, I drove two friends home tonight (sober) from a bar that I couldn’t afford (friends bought me Taco Bell though, loving the 7-layer). After dropping them off, at approx 1:45 on KFWB News Radio ( Metropolitan LA News Radio) there was a call in show discussing bailouts, car companies and how you FEEL ABOUT TORTURE. (Called 'The Countdown) Granted, it was a segmented show (and I emailed them to find the link for past broadcasts just now) and there was little time to let phone in-ers go to their own details… Annie, the last caller on the subject said this about waterboarding: “I feel it’s really not torture, but more like a BAPTISM, just without a priest. It’s a cleansing process.” Ooof. Other callers were mostly against it, many of whom were saying if it’s done, it should be done to people who are really connected. One caller said she worked for equal rights for all prisoners in the Russian consolate, saying the torture that’s done is done 6-8 hours per day and all inhumane. Now, I don’t hold any of this to be accurate, I mean, there are call in screeners, and working in talk radio previously, the radio station needs to get every angle on the air. This was a taped show, and I’m hoping I can get the link to post here soon, but there’s a good example of one believer. Annie, sounding well spoken and intelligent comparing waterboarding to a baptism is insulting, not just to me or any other non-believer, but I can see how this would be out of this world offending to many, many christians. But how she said it’s like “a baptism” is frightening to me and more proof that many believers, churchgoers of all sects have mislead themselves individually into thinking maybe something like, “It’s okay if we do it to THEM,” but “them” isn’t exactly defined. I certainly do not feel that any real believer would go Annie’s way, thinking that this type of torture, which can drown you IIRC, is like a cleansing process much like baptism. When I can get a post from them, I’ll paste the link. Would it be legal to waterboard a churchgoer like Annie? Just so she can wake up in ICU in a few weeks and we can ask her if she feels baptized, or at least cleansed? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/32 "2009-05-02T10:01:22Z")
> [@B.Serum](#): > > I think it has to do with a black & white “good vs. evil” paradigm, they feel that it’s okay to torture “evil” people. IMHO it is the eye for an eye and smiting the Philistines teachings which is the old covenant that so many ‘churches’ are unfortunately still teaching, and do so by deception. > [@](#): > > I’d be interested what the research would have found if they were asked if it’s okay for our enemies to do the same torture to us. I’d say most would be OK with it, again an eye for an eye, this old covenant stuff works both ways. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/33 "2009-05-02T10:07:24Z")
> [@parthenokinesis](#): > > I’d like to see the data correlated for different characteristics, like education levels, urbanity, income levels and what not. I would venture a guess its the ignorant, fundie toothless cousin-f\*\*\*ers that are buffing the churchgoers numbers, but that could just be my blind ignorant bigotry speaking. Yes, that was my first guess, too – that the common thread is less one of ardent religiousness, and more a certain… simplicity… in the underlying worldview. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/34 "2009-05-02T10:14:12Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > IMHO it is the eye for an eye and smiting the Philistines teachings which is the old covenant that so many ‘churches’ are unfortunately still teaching, and do so by deception. > > I’d say most would be OK with it, again an eye for an eye, this old covenant stuff works both ways. I’m sort of with you THIS time, **kanicbird.** The old stuff seems to work both ways… But from your other posts in religious topics, debates, etc., I am guessing you are a believer (DUH, Locrian!) but not a churchgoer. I’m also guessing that torture, at least nowadays you see as unjust, possibly religiously and/or legally. How do you see torture as a believer and/or churchgoer? ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/35 "2009-05-02T10:23:39Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > Yes, that was my first guess, too – that the common thread is less one of ardent religiousness, and more a certain… simplicity… in the underlying worldview. Agreed. Thank to you and **Pro**. I’m guessing (hoping) that even the churchgoers who are JUST churchgoers and churchgoers who really are religious and know their faith might think first that it might be A-O-American-K, but after examining their belief or moral standard, they’d go with: NO. Ignorance is bliss in this case of torture it seems… ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/36 "2009-05-02T10:37:37Z")
DP. (Doh!) ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/37 "2009-05-02T10:39:25Z")
Apologies, last post I meant you and **parthenokinesis.** 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/38 "2009-05-02T11:46:02Z")
> [@Bearflag70](#): > > God has obviously blessed America (it says so right here on my dollar) and terrorists harming the blessed country are an affront to God (i.e., EVIL). They deserve what they get and we are justified in taking any action to protect and preserve our children and the authority of God in the face of evil. DUH! > > IF THEY WEREN’T TERRORISTS, WE WOULD HAVE CAPTURED THEM. > > 😉 I would say God hasn’t blessed America, because people are always saying"God Bless America " and why He hasn’t Blessed it yet, is a question. Of course, it really isn’t a prayer but a demand, or they would say God, Please Bless America! I would imagine if God had blessed America he would be displeased like a father would be, if a person told a human father who had just fed his child to please feed your child. I, not knowing every thin, would be insulted or would think the person who told me that was ignorant of the facts. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/39 "2009-05-02T11:52:10Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > IMHO it is the eye for an eye and smiting the Philistines teachings which is the old covenant that so many ‘churches’ are unfortunately still teaching, and do so by deception. > > I’d say most would be OK with it, again an eye for an eye, this old covenant stuff works both ways. For those who take the Bible literally,Jesus is quoted as saying,“Be good to your enemies, in doing so you heap burning coals on their heads”(Not an exact quote but the gist is there. Most of the church goers I know are not in favor of tourture, just the radicals. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/40 "2009-05-02T12:17:41Z")
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