# Why are frequent churchgoers more likely to support torture? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 1, 2009, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017 "2009-05-01T20:25:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/41 "2009-05-02T12:51:41Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Jesus and what he said are largely irrelevant. I am speaking of Christianity - the beliefs held by Christians - not Jesus. I wouldn’t cast the irrelevancy pallor over Christ and his teachings, rather, I would say that they are largely ignored or paid lip service to. To many people, the teachings of Jesus Christ are not irrelevant, they are the very core of being a Christian. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/42 "2009-05-02T13:16:59Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > If those quotations are at all in concord with the views of the group surveyed, then I’d say the answer is that the group tended to approve of torture because they were unable - at least here - to grasp the distinction between ‘suspect’ and ‘terrorist’. It’s an irrelevant distinction to me. Torture is never acceptable, however evil the prisoner is. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/43 "2009-05-02T13:30:39Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > You know, I have a lot of sympathy for your perspective. As a Christian (and mostly a regular churchgoer) myself, I cringe at some of the horseshit heaped out there by people who claim to be following Jesus. But can I point out that there are a lot of active Christians who do not buy into what you castigate. Our message tends to get drowned out by the batshit insane types and the demogogues, but we do try to convey what we understood Jesus to have called us to do. I’ve let this slide repeatedly because I know where you’re coming from, but with a President in office who represents people like me and **Siege** and some of the others who are Christians and liberals orr moderates, can I ask you to at least acknowledge that the Religious Right does not have a monopoly on the term, and that some of us who agree with you on most issues are doing it out of, among other reasons, loyalty to J.C.? But it is the ones who you and I disagree with who have always been the core of Christianity. Your message gets drowned out because there are many more of them than you. It’s also unnecessary; you don’t need something delusional like religion to do good. Religion is much more important for encouraging and excusing evil and stupidity. I also have my doubts as to how much good a believer can actually do; since they are operating on false premises and with a disrespect for facts and logic, they do not have good judgement on anything touching their religion. And speaking specifically of Christians, being the follower of such a nasty religion doesn’t help at all. I should also point out that from my perspective all believers are “batshit insane”; some are simply more dangerously so than others. There’s just as much evidence for God telling them to kill gays as there is for God telling someone else to give to charity; none at all. > [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > I wouldn’t cast the irrelevancy pallor over Christ and his teachings, rather, I would say that they are largely ignored or paid lip service to. Which makes them irrelevant. > [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > To many people, the teachings of Jesus Christ are not irrelevant, they are the very core of being a Christian. That’s what you say; as I see it, few or no people follow his teachings, or ever have ( mainly because many of them are so impractical and self destructive ). ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/44 "2009-05-02T15:03:07Z")
> [@Snnipe\_70E](#): > > I am a regular church attender. > > I do not see how torture can ever justified. > > How many of us were alive in 1975, and watched the POWs return home? How did we fell about the stories of torture at the Hanoi Hilton? It was wrong then it is wrong now. How many self-described patriotic Americans are unwilling to believe their own country is capable of anything close to that level of atrocity? Even to the point that they’ll argue “it’s not torture,” or, indeed, make excuses for it? There are at least 2 kinds of patriotism. One is loyal to principles and beliefs. Another says so, but is really only loyal to tribe. ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/45 "2009-05-02T16:19:12Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > What part of Jesus’ teachings is evil? The concept of Hell. Also, Christianity is not just what Jesus said. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/46 "2009-05-02T16:34:08Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > If those quotations are at all in concord with the views of the group surveyed, then I’d say the answer is that the group tended to approve of torture because they were unable - at least here - to grasp the distinction between ‘suspect’ and ‘terrorist’. That’s been the whole problem with discussions of Gitmo from the beginning. Remember the good old days when the discussion was merely about locking people up indefinitely without trial, and torture wasn’t even an issue? It was clear then that that distinction was beyond many people’s understanding. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/47 "2009-05-02T16:46:43Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > When we do it, it’s different cuz Gawd is on our side? I believe God is saddened by what we are doing. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/48 "2009-05-02T16:54:07Z")
> [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > It’s an irrelevant distinction to me. Torture is never acceptable, however evil the prisoner is. I agree. When you evil to fight evil you become evil ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/49 "2009-05-02T17:04:59Z")
> [@Snnipe\_70E](#): > > I agree. When you evil to fight evil you become evil That should have read When you use evil, sorry missed the edit time ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/50 "2009-05-02T18:40:05Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > The concept of Hell. > > Also, **Christianity is not just what Jesus said**. Well, there’s also what Jesus _did_, but essentially, I think that it is. If it isn’t, than what comprises the rest? And LOL at the banner ad I’m seeing at the top of the page right now. “Meet Christian Singles” with a hot blonde pictured on it. Funny. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/51 "2009-05-02T18:55:19Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Well, there’s also what Jesus _did_, but essentially, I think that it is. If it isn’t, than what comprises the rest? The general consensus of those who claim to be Christian, as perceived by the public, whether you like it or not. If you don’t want Christians to be viewed as “pro-torture” it’s not enough to just be anti-torture-you _must_ be louder than the pro-torture fanatics. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/52 "2009-05-02T20:54:49Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The general consensus of those who claim to be Christian, as perceived by the public, whether you like it or not. If you don’t want Christians to be viewed as “pro-torture” it’s not enough to just be anti-torture-you _must_ be louder than the pro-torture fanatics. Just FWIW, I am a non-practicing quasi Christian, so I ultimately don’t worry too much about the common perception of Christians as a whole (I guess I should say _American_ Christians, because the Catholics and Christians that populate many other area of the world likely view this issue far differently than American Christians). I just kind want to be sure that the “other side” of the coin is represented, which is that I don’t really see many fundie, torture-supporting Christian crazies anywhere but on TV. Almost everyone I have met that is a Christian doesn’t fit so easily in such a definable mold. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/53 "2009-05-02T21:09:49Z")
Well they go to church and get tortured every Sunday. I suppose they like company. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/54 "2009-05-02T21:39:31Z")
I can’t imagine why people are so inclined to confuse correlation and causation here. It seems intuitive that conservative Christians would tend to attend church more than other groups — but they’re also more likely to support the Republican Party, thanks to its social policy. The Republican Party has generally supported torture for unrelated reasons, and that position trickles down to its supporters. Simple. Also keep in mind that the debate over the use of torture can’t be simplified to “torture is bad vs. torture is good”. A deontological constraint against torture might be overruled if it is sufficiently useful in saving lives. Here, one side says either that torture is an absolute wrong or that the utility of torture is insufficient to justify it as an act, whereas the other side says that torture is prima fascie wrong but useful enough to be justified. Conservative Christians really should take the former position, I agree, and many do (the Pope and _Christianity Today_’s writers come to mind), but the number of people taking the latter isn’t exactly shocking. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/55 "2009-05-02T22:33:25Z")
I don’t know what fuck-all this has to do exactly with the argument at hand, but my Dad is a retired major general in the Army, and he sent me this: [Security Before Politics](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/24/AR2009042403339.html) \*\*by Porter J. Goss \*\* \*Since leaving my post as CIA director almost three years ago, I have remained largely silent on the public stage. I am speaking out now because I feel our=2 0government has crossed the red line between properly protecting our national security and trying to gain partisan political advantage. We can’t have a secret intelligence service if we keep giving away all the secrets. Americans have to decide now. A disturbing epidemic of amnesia seems to be plaguing my former colleagues on Capitol Hill. After the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, members of the committees charged with overseeing our nation’s intelligence services had no higher priority than stopping al-Qaeda. In the fall of 2002, while I was chairman of the House intelligence committee, senior members of Congress were briefed on the CIA’s “High Value Terrorist Program,” including the development of “enhanced interrogation techniques” and what those techniques were. This was not a one-time briefing but an ongoing subject with lots of back and forth between those members and the briefers. Today, I am slack-jawed to read that members claim to have not understood that the techniques on which they were briefed were to actually be employed; or that specific techniques such as “waterboarding” were never mentioned. It must be hard for most Americans of common sense to imagine how a member of Congress can forget being told about the interrogations of Sept. 11 mastermind Khalid Sheik Mohammed. In that case, though, perhaps it is not amnesia but political expedience. _[Text deleted to conform to Fair Use. Full article is linked in title.]_ Our enemies do not subscribe to the rules of the Marquis of Queensbury. “Name, rank and serial number” does not apply to non-state actors but is, regrettably, the only question this administration wants us to ask. Instead of taking risks, our intelligence officers will soon resort to wordsmithing cables to headquarters while opportunities to neutralize brutal radicals are lost. The days of fortress America are gone. We are the world’s superpower. We can sit on our hands or we can become engaged to improve global human conditions. The bottom line is that we cannot succeed unless we have good intelligence. Trading security for partisan political popularity will ensure that our secrets are not secret and that our intelligence is destined to fail us. The writer, a Republican, was director of the CIA from September 2004 to May 2006 and was chairman of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence from 1997 to 2004. - April 25, 2009 © 2009 – The Washington Post ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/56 "2009-05-02T22:40:56Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Well, there’s also what Jesus _did_, but essentially, I think that it is. If it isn’t, than what comprises the rest? Paul, The Old Testament, The book of Revelations, many thousand years of church doctrine, the Pope, what the zeitgeist leads the priests to preach. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/57 "2009-05-02T22:42:54Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > I don’t know what fuck-all this has to do exactly with the argument at hand, but my Dad is a retired major general in the Army, and he sent me this: > Security Before Politics > > \*\*by Porter J. Goss > \*\* > \*Since leaving my post as CIA director almost three years ago, I have remained largely silent on the public stage. I am speaking out now because I feel our=2 0government has crossed the red line between properly protecting our national security and trying to gain partisan political advantage. We can’t have a secret intelligence service if we keep giving away all the secrets. Americans have to decide now… You are absolutely right. It has fuck-all to do with the topic at hand. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/58 "2009-05-02T23:29:20Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You are absolutely right. > > It has fuck-all to do with the topic at hand. Other than torture, of course, and the justification thereof. I admit it’s tangential. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2009, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/59 "2009-05-03T00:13:29Z")
> [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > It’s an irrelevant distinction to me. Torture is never acceptable, however evil the prisoner is. Well, for me too - but I do think it’s not quite so surprising to find people condoning _torture to extract useful information from bad guys_ (as opposed to _torture to extract we don’t really know what from people who may in fact be innocent_) ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2009, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017/60 "2009-05-03T01:07:08Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > Paul, The Old Testament, The book of Revelations, many thousand years of church doctrine, the Pope, what the zeitgeist leads the priests to preach. My argument is that I think you can pretty much discard the Old Testament, the book of Revelations as I understand it is a book comprising code writing by persecuted faithful, who cares about the Pope and thousands of years of doctrine… …not to mention that a lot of what you are describing is more inherent to the Catholic brand of Christianity that while large is in no way a representation of the way many other Christians of all or no denominations view their faith, the structure of the Bible or an ability to filter out certain portions that are either stupid, extremely out of date with modern people or just plain vindictive. If you focus solely on the teachings of Jesus Christ as a Christian, there you will find actual Christianity. And it exists, but as you imply, it is a minority branch. ANd of course, all fall short. But it is in the trying to achieve whereby purification comes. OK, I don’t know why I just said that. I’m no preacher. Perhaps it is a mid-life crisis speaking. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/495017.md?page=4)