# Why Are Fundamentalists Opposed To Psychology? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 2, 2009, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-fundamentalists-opposed-to-psychology/519666 "2009-12-02T04:01:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MichaelQReilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@MichaelQReilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelQReilly)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2009, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-fundamentalists-opposed-to-psychology/519666/21 "2009-12-02T22:33:36Z")
Hell, I’m an atheist and I think most psychology is little better than pseudoscience. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2009, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-fundamentalists-opposed-to-psychology/519666/22 "2009-12-02T23:00:01Z")
Well, it probably doesn’t help that homosexuality is no longer considered a mental illness. There are other reasons why a Fundamentalist Christian might oppose psychology, but their feelings toward the feel might be a little warmer if they at least agreed that there was something seriously wrong with the gays. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-fundamentalists-opposed-to-psychology/519666/23 "2009-12-03T00:06:55Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Taking the ‘mental’ out of ‘fundamental’? :dubious: “We take the ‘mental’ out of ‘fundamental’ and put the ‘fun’ back in!” ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-fundamentalists-opposed-to-psychology/519666/24 "2009-12-03T00:27:14Z")
Anything that offers or seeks an alternative (and incompatible) natural explanation for a phenomenon that fundamentalists consider to be spiritual/divine in nature (in this case, mental illness, the nature of mind and self, etc), is likely to attract their opposition. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-fundamentalists-opposed-to-psychology/519666/25 "2009-12-03T01:49:27Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Well, it probably doesn’t help that homosexuality is no longer considered a mental illness. There are other reasons why a Fundamentalist Christian might oppose psychology, but their **feelings toward the feel** might be a little warmer if they at least agreed that there was something seriously wrong with the gays. :smack: That should be “feelings toward the field”. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-fundamentalists-opposed-to-psychology/519666/26 "2009-12-03T16:50:05Z")
Many years ago a large group of Catholic priests went through psychoanalysis. A big chunk of them quit the priesthood. The boss said it was good because the ones left would be better priests. I believe it was in California. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-fundamentalists-opposed-to-psychology/519666/27 "2009-12-03T16:56:01Z")
[the spitting vessel: Pope Pushes Psychoanalysis for Priests](http://spittingvessel.blogspot.com/2008/10/pope-pushes-psychoanalysis-for-priests.html) The pope is trying to defuse the priesthood from hiring gay and deviant priests by psychological testing. Thing have changes. Paying billions in law suits will do that. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-fundamentalists-opposed-to-psychology/519666/28 "2009-12-04T03:03:18Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > First, we really gotta define “Fundamentalist”. I think all Dopers would categorize Dr. James Dobson as a Fundamentalist, yet he is also a psychologist. By Doper standards, Curtis, you & perhaps I are “Fund’ists”. And that’s OK in the original sense of the term- a Christian who holds to the Divine authority of the Bible and the Deity, Virgin Birth, Sacrificial Death, Bodily Resurrection & Personal Return of Jesus. For the real whackos (such as the Amazing Grace folks), I prefer “Fundies”. I agree. > [@FriarTed](#): > > [Home - PsychoHeresy Awareness Ministries](http://www.psychoheresy-aware.org/mainpage.html) > > Here’s a good example of one fundamentalist ministry that is specifically focused on opposing psychology. Yet most of the Christians psychologists, counselors & ministries it opposes would be considered fundamentalist by many Doper standards (Dobson, Larry Crabb, Tim LaHaye, Promise Keepers). Wait, Tim LaHaye’s a psychologist? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-fundamentalists-opposed-to-psychology/519666/29 "2009-12-04T03:22:01Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I agree. > > Wait, Tim LaHaye’s a psychologist? 😕 Not according to his wiki. > [@](#): > > LaHaye received a B.A. from Bob Jones University in 1950. He also holds a Doctor of Ministry degree from Western Seminary. In 1958, the LaHaye family moved to San Diego, California, where he became pastor of the Scott Memorial Baptist Church (since renamed “Shadow Mountain Community Church”) in El Cajon, serving there for almost 25 years. In 1971 he founded Christian Heritage College, which is now known as San Diego Christian College. There are several Christian counselors (I don’t know if LaHaye is one or not) who are not licensed psychologists. There’s also the case of [Paul Cameron](http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/HTML/facts_cameron_sheet.html), the most diabolical man in America where gay rights is concerned: he has a Ph.D. in psychology but was expelled from the American Psychological Association along with several other professional organizations and all for ethical violations/fraudulent research yet his ‘research’ and ‘findings’ are still admitted in courts throughout the land. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-fundamentalists-opposed-to-psychology/519666/30 "2009-12-04T03:28:35Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I agree. > > Wait, Tim LaHaye’s a psychologist? 😕 Tim LaHaye has been a pastoral counselor who applies “four temperments” theory, which his anti-psych Fundy detractors see as a blend of secular psychology and pagan fatalism. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-fundamentalists-opposed-to-psychology/519666/31 "2009-12-04T03:51:24Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Tim LaHaye has been a pastoral counselor who applies “four temperments” theory, which his anti-psych Fundy detractors see as a blend of secular psychology and pagan fatalism. “That thing turbo charged?” So his detractors are not just against psychology but against non APA counseling? Does anybody remember the big “APA says Pedophilia is Good” scandal many years back (probably early 90s or so)? Used to be referenced on TBN and other Fundy shows. Short version: the American Psychological Association (APA) stated that research indicated that adults who had been sexualized as children were, so long as they had confronted the issue and had counseling, often not just well adjusted as adults but often moreso than most other adults due to the counseling. This led to the interpretation that “The APA says that being sexually molested as children makes people better adjusted as adults”, a gross distortion of the actual wording, but I have heard it repeated on TV by Paul Crouch, Jimmy Swaggart and John Hagee and I’m guessing others have as well. It’s possible this could play into the uneducated dislike of psychology as well- it’s about didlin’ the chirren’. ---
**Author:** ![kapri](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4491bb/32.png) [@kapri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kapri)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-fundamentalists-opposed-to-psychology/519666/32 "2009-12-04T05:48:23Z")
I went to a fundie college as an undergrad, and they had a strong psychology department. I went to several fundie churches until I was around 28, and I never heard anyone in those churches speak against psychology. So not all . . . ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-fundamentalists-opposed-to-psychology/519666/33 "2009-12-06T03:08:49Z")
> [@kapri](#): > > I went to a fundie college as an undergrad, and they had a strong psychology department. I went to several fundie churches until I was around 28, and I never heard anyone in those churches speak against psychology. So not all . . . Which college? For instance to some any religious college might be “fundie” but to me only colleges like say Pensacola Christian College would be “fundie”. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-fundamentalists-opposed-to-psychology/519666/34 "2009-12-06T06:58:57Z")
Assuming fundamentalists do oppose psychology in large numbers it is likely because psychology is based on materialism, which would reject the ‘mind/body’ dichotomy and by proxy the concept of an etherical soul disconnected from the brain, which would devalue the entire Christian faith. The idea that feelings, ambitions, hopes, etc are due to material chemicals rather than an etherical soul is threatening to their worldview. That is likely the reason. Here is something interesting, psychiatrists are the least religious physicians. [http://richarddawkins.net/articles/2787](http://richarddawkins.net/articles/2787) “Ever since Freud described religious faith as an illusion and a neurosis there has been tension and at times hostility between religion and psychiatry. Psychiatrists are less religious on average than other physicians, according to previously published data from the same survey, and non-psychiatrist physicians who are religious are less willing to refer their patients to psychiatrists.” > **[Psychiatrists Are The Least Religious Of All Physicians](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/09/070903094243.htm)** > > A survey of the religious beliefs and practices of American physicians has found that the least religious of all medical specialties is psychiatry. Among psychiatrists who have a religion, more than twice as many are Jewish and far fewer are... “Although 61 percent of all American physicians were either Protestant (39%) or Catholic (22%), only 37 percent of psychiatrists were Protestant (27%) or Catholic (10%). Twenty-nine percent were Jewish, compared to 13 percent of all physicians. Seventeen percent of psychiatrists listed their religion as “none,” compared to only 10 percent of all doctors” However, I think many people who aren’t fundamentalists oppose it for the same reason. Many people do not like the idea that a person’s behavior or taste in politics or religion may be due to genetics rather than free will, or the idea that a pill can change the way you think about yourself and the world. I tend to believe its the same reason fundamentalists oppose evolution. If evolution via natural selection is real, there was no Adam and Eve. If Adam and Eve never existed, then there was no original sin that needed to be rectified. W/o original sin the entire story of Jesus falls apart since that is why he was crucified. Point is, fundamentalists hate evolution but they really don’t seem to care about the universe being 13.7 billion years old. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-fundamentalists-opposed-to-psychology/519666/35 "2009-12-06T07:12:14Z")
Psychology - the therapeutic aspect anyway - tends to focus on what’s best for the individual. Often that involves putting the individual before society’s sanctions, opinions and taboos. To a fundamentalist, that is unambiguously bad, because their idea of God intends the individual to be subordinate to outer control in every way. Not submitting to control - wherever, however, for any reason - constitutes the sin of pride. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-fundamentalists-opposed-to-psychology/519666/36 "2009-12-06T16:17:48Z")
I’m reminded of a minister who said nobody would suffer from depression if they just had more faith. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-fundamentalists-opposed-to-psychology/519666/37 "2009-12-06T17:37:11Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > (Though I do keep my Universalist leanings somewhat guarded. That would be a bit much to expect them to handle!) I know the feeling. The Catholic Church doesn’t exactly warm to Universalist leanings either, although I have a feeling they’re a bit less hostile than AoG. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-fundamentalists-opposed-to-psychology/519666/38 "2009-12-07T01:09:22Z")
Apparently Jack Chick does endorse Christian psychology… [http://www.chickcomics.com/comics3.htm](http://www.chickcomics.com/comics3.htm) > [@](#): > > “Going Bananas? Isn’t Everybody?..Here’s Help!” Review by Rich Lee! (Art by Fred Carter 1979.) > > This 224 page book is a companion to “A Solution to The Marriage Mess.” It basically is an illustrated novel that acknowledges Fred Carter as the artist. This classic is no longer in print. The book’s seven chapters feature the story of Janet and Jerry Roberts who take in extended family members. They are unsaved heathen who drive this Christian family “bananas,” resulting in Janet’s breakdown. > > Janet’s niece Cathy had abortions, drinks vodka, is a victim of incest from her good-for-nothing father and she hates her mother. The nephew Freddy is a foul mouthed brat who smokes and also hates his parents. Doreen is their dysfunctional mother who crashes in on poor Janet and Jerry. When Freddy gets saved at church, Doreen goes berserk. She hates Janet and Jerry for “doing this” to her son. Later, Doreen’s creepy husband Chester comes over to feed mud to little Freddy for daring to become a Christian. “YOU @!!\*#! LITTLE FOOL…I WISH YOU WERE BACK SIZZLING YOUR BRAINS ON DRUGS INSTEAD OF HUMILIATING YOUR MOTHER AND ME LIKE THIS,” Chester shouts. Nice parents. > > In true Chick fashion ala “The Next Step,” Freddy takes his persecution without resisting while the mud oozes down his face. “(GASP…GASP HE’S MY LORD AND MY GOD…(GASP) AND I LOVE HIM MORE EVERY MINUTE!” Gotta face it, this is more fun than an hour of the Jerry Springer Show! > > If this isn’t bad enough, Janet’s and Doreen’s mother imposes on them. She is a dominating hag on the rag who is the source of this family mess. A Christian psychiatrist Dr. Morgan gives the sane remedy: get rid of Mom! Now! She is the one responsible for messing up her daughters Janet and Doreen all these years. Janet has to go for treatment, while her mother insists on making herself useful being the codependent walking incubater she is. Jerry musters up the courage to kick the old battle axe out on the street while she manipulates the situation in her favor. “YOU UNGRATEFUL LITTLE @!!\*#! HOW DARE YOU SAY A THING LIKE THAT TO ME!!..I WILL NOT LEAVE MY BABY!” She eventually caves in and leaves before poor Janet suffers a seizure. “GOODBYE, JANET…I HOPE YOU’RE HAPPY BREAKING MY HEART LIKE THIS… BUT THEN YOU ALWAYS WERE SELFISH.” Jeez, enough already. Later, Janet goes for Gesthalt therapy and pretends that a chair is her mother. Dr. Morgan tells her to tell her “mother” off. “I’M NOT CRAZY…” says Janet in therapy. “IF THE TRUTH CAME OUT, YOU’D BE THE CRAZY ONE!” Janet is cured and eventually helps others as she was helped. Interestingly enough, many Christians do not believe in telling off their parents no matter how messed up and controlling they are. Jerry didn’t even want to kick out Janet’s mother in the first place and told Dr. Morgan “We’re trying to show our Christian testimony to her mom.” The good Christian doctor says, "“What’s more important?..Your wife’s sanity or your Christian witness?” This is a surprise, since fundamentalist Christians tend to go for the Christian witness over keeping one’s sanity. Being sane is more important than witnessing! And this comes from Chick! Of course, if mommy dearest had been a Christian, you can bet the good doctor would have insisted she stay, no matter what the consequences. Haw-haw! > > Another shock is that this book endorses Christian psychology and psychiatry. Most fundamentalist Christians view psychology and psychiatry with suspicion since the founders of these disciplines were atheists and secular humanists like Sigmund Freud, Carl Rogers, and Albert Ellis who strongly disliked religion. In fact when this book was published (1979), traditional psychology and psychiatry were openly hostile to religion and blamed it for neurosis. Born again Christians tend to believe that these disciplines are unscriptural substitutes for repentance and prayer. In fact, if Christians are openly blasted by their mothers as in Janet’s case, they should happily put up with it and not resist lest they be guilty of dishonoring their parents! If the parents want to dominate the household, then they “should” because parental authority never ends over one’s life. Hence, the fundamentalist Christian subculture is filled with 40 and 50 year olds who still live with their dominating parents in trailer parks. Now THAT’S bananas! ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-fundamentalists-opposed-to-psychology/519666/39 "2009-12-07T02:59:27Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > I know the feeling. The Catholic Church doesn’t exactly warm to Universalist leanings either, although I have a feeling they’re a bit less hostile than AoG. I think a couple years before he passed away, it was reported that JPII said that while the Catholic faith teaches an eternal Hell, the question of whether anyone goes there forever is an open one. ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-fundamentalists-opposed-to-psychology/519666/40 "2009-12-07T15:00:19Z")
Andrew Greeley used to say the same thing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-fundamentalists-opposed-to-psychology/519666.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-fundamentalists-opposed-to-psychology/519666.md?page=3)