# Why are Hollanders/Netherlands natives called "Dutch"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 30, 2008, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-hollanders-netherlands-natives-called-dutch/465815 "2008-09-30T04:21:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-hollanders-netherlands-natives-called-dutch/465815/1 "2008-09-30T04:21:02Z")
…instead of “Hollanders” or “Netherlanders”? And while we’re at it, why is Flanders so named? It’s the Flemish who live there, so why don’t they call it Flemingland, or Flemishland, or Flemland. Or, conversely, why are natives of Flanders not called Flanderites, or something? ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-hollanders-netherlands-natives-called-dutch/465815/2 "2008-09-30T04:31:40Z")
Dutch is obviously a form of Deutsch or German. Sorry, no cite, but I read in one of my books on languages that the English originally called all people speaking German (or a facsimile thereof) Dutch-speaking people, and eventually the name became applied solely to their main German-speaking 17th century rivals in mastery of the seas, the people from the Netherlands. P.S. The name that group A calls group B is often different from the name that group B calls itself. See this article for example on the country known as Germany, Allemagne, Deutschland, Niemcy, Saksa, … > **[Why are there so many names for Germany, AKA Deutschland, Allemagne, etc.?](https://www.straightdope.com/21341621/why-are-there-so-many-names-for-germany-aka-deutschland-allemagne-etc)** ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-hollanders-netherlands-natives-called-dutch/465815/3 "2008-09-30T04:32:46Z")
[QUOTE=Oxford English Dictionary] OTeut. \*þeudisko-z, meant ‘popular, national’, f. OTeut. \*þeudâ-, Goth. þiuda, ON. þjóð, OS. thioda, thiod, OE. þéod (ME. THEDE), OHG. diota, diot, people, nation. In Germany, the adj. was used (in the 9th c.) as a rendering of L. vulgaris, to distinguish the ‘vulgar tongue’ from the Latin of the church and the learned; hence it gradually came to be the current denomination of the vernacular, applicable alike to any particular dialect, and generically to German as a whole. From the language, it was naturally extended to those who spoke it (cf. English), and thus grew to be an ethnic or national adjective; whence also, in the 12th or 13th c., arose the name of the country, Diutisklant, now Deutschland, = Germany. In the 15th and 16th c. ‘Dutch’ was used in England in the general sense in which we now use ‘German’, and in this sense it included the language and people of the Netherlands as part of the ‘Low Dutch’ or Low German domain. After the United Provinces became an independent state, using the ‘Nederduytsch’ or Low German of Holland as the national language, the term ‘Dutch’ was gradually restricted in England to the Netherlanders, as being the particular division of the ‘Dutch’ or Germans with whom the English came in contact in the 17th c.; while in Holland itself duitsch, and in Germany deutsch, are, in their ordinary use, restricted to the language and dialects of Germany and of adjacent regions, exclusive of the Netherlands and Friesland; though in a wider sense ‘deutsch’ includes these also, and may even be used as widely as ‘Germanic’ or ‘Teutonic’. Thus the English use of Dutch has diverged from the German and Netherlandish use since 1600. [/QUOTE] Not sure what the Dutch call themselves, but I suspect it’s Niederland-something. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-hollanders-netherlands-natives-called-dutch/465815/4 "2008-09-30T04:53:20Z")
IIRC, and until someone who actually is Dutch shows up: They call their language _Hollands_. A person from The Netherlands is a _Nederlander_, and I think one who comes from the Province of Holland can also be called a _Hollander_. I do know for sure that the latter is a family name, suggesting that it’s another example of the time-honored and ubiquitous practice in Germanic countries of using the -er ending to form a geographical adjective. Until about a hundred years ago “Dutch”, in American English, meant about what “German” means today, although I believe that what we now call Dutch was included in that aggregate, as were Standard and Swiss German. In Dutch, the cognate word to English “Dutch” and German “deutsch” is _diets_, and means German. None of this explains in particular how the names for the language, the country, and the people of the land north of Belgium got so confusing. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-hollanders-netherlands-natives-called-dutch/465815/5 "2008-09-30T04:55:02Z")
But that just invites the follow-up question; if we’re (English speakers) going to call them “Dutch”, why don’t we go all the way and call their country “Dutchland”, or “Dutchsylvania”\*, or somesuch? \*I realize that since the region is not known for being heavily covered with forests, “Dutchsylvania” would not be very appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-hollanders-netherlands-natives-called-dutch/465815/6 "2008-09-30T05:00:06Z")
Speakers of Plattdeutsch, the Germanic tongue that did not go through the second sound shift which Hochdeutsch did, were spread from Pomerania to Picardy along the Baltic-North Sea littoral and for some distance inland. In the states that coalesced into Germany (Deutschland), a Hochdeutsch dialect based on a coalescence of Hessian and Brandenburger dialects became the national standard and is what is today called “German.” The Plattdeutsch dialects becme substandard and largely rural, and have gradually been replaced by “standard [Hochdeutch] German.” Dialecticians seem to indicate that the replacement has not been complete as yet, but it’s nearing completion, and Plattdeutsch in Germany is nearing extinction. To the west, however, in the Low Countries, Plattdeutsch dialects survived and flourished. The dialects of the County of Holland (now the provinces of North and South Holland in the Netherlands) and of Utrecht became the basis for a standard Nederlands language (“Dutch”). Farther south, the Plattdeutsch dialects of the Counties of Flanders and Brabant became the basis for a standard Vlaamings (Flemish) language. In time, particularly with improved travel and communications, Nederlands and Vlaamings converged to form a single standard tongue still identified by the two distinct names, respectively the official language of the Kingdom of the Netherlands and one of the two languages of the Kingdom of Belgium (the other being the Walloon dialect of French). Belgium is split roughly northwest/southeast between the two, with Brussels, roughly on the dividing line, bilingual. (The national borders do not precisely mirror the linguistic ones, by the way; along the Belgian border in the extreme northwest of France are about a million speakers of Flemish.) The Flanders/Fleming dichotomy is not so great in Flemish: Vlaanderen/Vlaamings. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-hollanders-netherlands-natives-called-dutch/465815/7 "2008-09-30T12:29:38Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > But that just invites the follow-up question; if we’re (English speakers) going to call them “Dutch”, why don’t we go all the way and call their country “Dutchland”, or “Dutchsylvania”\*, or somesuch?. Because language is not required to be consistent. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-hollanders-netherlands-natives-called-dutch/465815/8 "2008-09-30T13:39:13Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > The Flanders/Fleming dichotomy is not so great in Flemish: Vlaanderen/Vlaamings. And “Vlaamse”, which became “Flemish” when Anglicised. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-hollanders-netherlands-natives-called-dutch/465815/9 "2008-09-30T14:55:43Z")
> [@Colophon](#): > > And “Vlaamse”, which became “Flemish” when Anglicised. Good point. “Vlaamings” = noun, [the] Flemish [language] “Vlaamse” = adjective, “Flemish”, “of or related to matters pertaining to Flanders and its natives” ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-hollanders-netherlands-natives-called-dutch/465815/10 "2008-09-30T15:02:36Z")
By the way, in answer to a related question not yet asked: “Holland” for the Netherlands is the result of synecdoche: the predominant state in the United Provinces, the one where The Hague, Amsterdam, Rotterdam, and Haarkem were all located, became used for the country as a whole. An almost precise parallel exists in American English, where “England” is used as shorthand for “the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland” (to the ongoing annoyance of the Welsh, Scots, and Ulstermen). ---
**Author:** ![Flander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8c91f0/32.png) [@Flander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flander)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-hollanders-netherlands-natives-called-dutch/465815/11 "2008-09-30T15:42:40Z")
Indecently, I am of absolutely NO help in this thread. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-hollanders-netherlands-natives-called-dutch/465815/12 "2008-09-30T15:53:20Z")
I was just at a lecture given by Dr. Jaap van Marle, Dean of Cultural Studies, Open University, Heerlen, Limburg, Netherlands. This topic was raised. His reply: “It’s complicated. I know of a grad student who will get his degree exploring this topic”. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-hollanders-netherlands-natives-called-dutch/465815/13 "2008-09-30T16:04:02Z")
> [@Flander](#): > > Indecently, I am of absolutely NO help in this thread. :smack: Perhaps you should consult with **Walloon** and get back to us? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Anaglyph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Anaglyph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaglyph)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-hollanders-netherlands-natives-called-dutch/465815/14 "2008-09-30T16:26:45Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > But that just invites the follow-up question; if we’re (English speakers) going to call them “Dutch”, why don’t we go all the way and call their country “Dutchland”, or “Dutchsylvania”\*, or somesuch? > > \*I realize that since the region is not known for being heavily covered with forests, “Dutchsylvania” would not be very appropriate. Because the Name “Deutschland” was already taken? (Germany) ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-hollanders-netherlands-natives-called-dutch/465815/15 "2008-09-30T19:35:24Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > “Vlaamse” = adjective, “Flemish”, “of or related to matters pertaining to Flanders and its natives” In-dee-diddly-doo! ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-hollanders-netherlands-natives-called-dutch/465815/16 "2008-09-30T20:55:40Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > …An almost precise parallel exists in American English, where “England” is used as shorthand for “the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland” (to the ongoing annoyance of the Welsh, Scots, and Ulstermen). Or how “Russia” and “Russians” were used as synonyms for “Soviet Union” and “Soviets”. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-hollanders-netherlands-natives-called-dutch/465815/17 "2008-10-01T01:01:21Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > By the way, in answer to a related question not yet asked: > > “Holland” for the Netherlands is the result of synecdoche: the predominant state in the United Provinces, the one where The Hague, Amsterdam, Rotterdam, and Haarkem were all located, became used for the country as a whole. An almost precise parallel exists in American English, where “England” is used as shorthand for “the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland” (to the ongoing annoyance of the Welsh, Scots, and Ulstermen). Sort of the opposite of us using America to mean just the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Gotterfunken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/58956e/32.png) [@Gotterfunken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gotterfunken)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-hollanders-netherlands-natives-called-dutch/465815/18 "2008-10-01T04:46:44Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > By the way, in answer to a related question not yet asked: > > “Holland” for the Netherlands is the result of synecdoche: the predominant state in the United Provinces, the one where The Hague, Amsterdam, Rotterdam, and Haarkem were all located, became used for the country as a whole. An almost precise parallel exists in American English, where “England” is used as shorthand for “the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland” (to the ongoing annoyance of the Welsh, Scots, and Ulstermen). How do the Dutch feel about English-speakers calling their entire country “Holland” instead of the Netherlands? Do the ones from the states outside Holland consider it an ignorant or offensive term, in the way that many Scots would react (appropriately, in my opinion) to someone grouping “Scotland” under “England”? ---
**Author:** ![Svejk\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@Svejk\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svejk_1)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-hollanders-netherlands-natives-called-dutch/465815/19 "2008-10-01T08:35:06Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Good point. > > “Vlaamings” = noun, [the] Flemish [language] > > “Vlaamse” = adjective, “Flemish”, “of or related to matters pertaining to Flanders and its natives” Nitpick: The Flemish Language is called ‘Vlaams’, not Vlaamings; a Flemish person is called Vlaming, (pl. -en). The Dutch call their language _Nederlands_, most of the time, although (as **Spectre of Pithecanthropus** suggests some do speak of _Hollands_. It has a ring of uneducatedness to me, though, to speak of _Hollands_. One other slight inaccuracy in the **Spectre** ’s post is that _Diets_ means German. The Dutch word for German is Duits. Diets is not a Dutch word for anything anymore except in circles of neonazis, where it is used to refer to some sort of Dutch-German popular union. In the olden days, however, when there was no unified Dutch language as distinct from a unified German language, but just a bunch of accents gradually sliding into each other, _Diets_ was a collective term taken to refer to those accents as a whole. Hither comes English ‘Dutch’ as referring to the people living in the Netherlands and the language they speak there. Anyway, when discussing the Netherlands in a language other than Dutch, it is my impression that the Dutch tend to stick to some cognate of ‘Holland’ simply because it’s easier - it’s easier on us but also on the foreigners who recognize Holland sooner than the Netherlands. Compare Olanda, Holandsko, Holland, Holland, l’Hollande to Países Bajos, Nizozemí, The Netherlands, Die Niederlände and les Pays-Bas. Similarly, The Dutch don’t really care when people speak of Holland instead of The Netherlands. They do it themselves all the time, in Dutch and in other languages, whether they’re actually from Holland-proper or not. What does get our goat is when people confuse our country with its capital, Amsterdam. Amsterdam is not the entire country, it’s a tiny city, really (pop. 700,000) and we don’t all live there or go there all the time, there’s plenty of hookers and dope outside Amsterdam, just not as much tourists. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-hollanders-netherlands-natives-called-dutch/465815/20 "2008-10-01T10:04:45Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > Or how “Russia” and “Russians” were used as synonyms for “Soviet Union” and “Soviets”. As in the famous [“Russian linesman”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tofik_Bakhramov) at the 1966 World Cup final, who was actually from Azerbaijan. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-hollanders-netherlands-natives-called-dutch/465815.md?page=2)