# Why are hyphenated names a sign of upper-class status in Britain? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 2, 2003, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-hyphenated-names-a-sign-of-upper-class-status-in-britain/192474 "2003-08-02T01:10:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2003, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-hyphenated-names-a-sign-of-upper-class-status-in-britain/192474/1 "2003-08-02T01:10:40Z")
In the U.S., if a person has a hyphenated last name – e.g., “Thomas Brown-Brzesinski” – we assumed that his or her parents were feminists, and hyphenated the child’s last name in preference to the old and sexist custom of giving the child the father’s name only. But when I read literature, or watch TV or movies, set in the U.K., it seems a hyphenated name – e.g., “Sabrina Mulholland-Jjones” (from a _Red Dward_ episode) – implies that the holder of the name is of the nobility, or at least the gentry. Why is that? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2003, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-hyphenated-names-a-sign-of-upper-class-status-in-britain/192474/2 "2003-08-02T01:12:35Z")
Sorry, that’s _Red DwarF._ ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2003, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-hyphenated-names-a-sign-of-upper-class-status-in-britain/192474/3 "2003-08-02T02:52:20Z")
When you’re the product of good breeding, why not take advantage of the opportunities provided by both Mummy and Daddy’s families? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2003, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-hyphenated-names-a-sign-of-upper-class-status-in-britain/192474/4 "2003-08-02T21:37:54Z")
Posted by **Tengu:** > [@](#): > > When you’re the product of good breeding, why not take advantage of the opportunities provided by both Mummy and Daddy’s families? You seem to be implying that in Britain, people customarily get to choose their own last names, or at least the form of their names. But aren’t (most) Brits born with their names, just like Yanks? ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2003, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-hyphenated-names-a-sign-of-upper-class-status-in-britain/192474/5 "2003-08-02T22:07:01Z")
Also from a parody standpoint is Monty Python’s “Upperclass Twit of the Year” contest, featuring Nigel Incubator-Jones, Vivian Smith-Smythe-Smith, Simon Zinc-Trumpet-Harris, Gervaise Brook-Hamster, and Oliver St. John-Mollusc. But **BrainGlutton** has a good point, as does **Tengu.** You think Pamela Anderson Lee chose this name from fixation on feminist equality? No, it was because Pamela _Anderson_ is a known commodity with some weight and swing in Hollywood. (Oops, bad metaphor.) Pamela _Lee_ would lose the same kind of firm familiarity, she wouldn’t have the same box office heft. (Oops, there it went again.) Also try > [@](#): > > In England (and other English-speaking countries), a kind of inverse snobbery has grown up where families not belonging to the aristocracy avoid the use of hyphens, while the House of Lords insists on the hyphen. When the composer Andrew Lloyd Webber was elevated to the Lords, he was obliged to use a hyphen in his title of Lord Lloyd-Webber. this, the first relevant link I came across, about heraldry, found here. Google can undoubtedly turn up a more reliable source than Geocities, but I didn’t look too hard. [http://www.geocities.com/barensteel/famarms/quarters.html](http://www.geocities.com/barensteel/famarms/quarters.html) FISH ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2003, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-hyphenated-names-a-sign-of-upper-class-status-in-britain/192474/6 "2003-08-02T22:10:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BrainGlutton \* > \*\*In the U.S., if a person has a hyphenated last name – e.g., “Thomas Brown-Brzesinski” – we assumed that his or her parents were feminists, and hyphenated the child’s last name in preference to the old and sexist custom of giving the child the father’s name only. > > But when I read literature, or watch TV or movies, set in the U.K., it seems a hyphenated name – e.g., “Sabrina Mulholland-Jjones” (from a _Red Dward_ episode) – implies that the holder of the name is of the nobility, or at least the gentry. Why is that? \*\* I dunno why, but it seems to be true. The spouse has a hyphenated last name (maiden name-my last name), and has gotten reactions from people who automatically assumed that she had some sort of aristocratic background. ---
**Author:** ![Never\_Say\_Dice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ee59a6/32.png) [@Never\_Say\_Dice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Never_Say_Dice)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-hyphenated-names-a-sign-of-upper-class-status-in-britain/192474/7 "2003-08-03T01:48:23Z")
Don’t you want to point out the tie if you are in line to inherit a peerage or castle? Women can do that now, can’t they? If at some point you’re going to be Lady \_\_\_ and not use your husband’s name at all, why not start with it. ---
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-hyphenated-names-a-sign-of-upper-class-status-in-britain/192474/8 "2003-08-03T07:23:02Z")
In some case (no cite just now sorry , cos I am half asleep)it can be because some posh family or other does not want its name to be completely lost, and might make inheritance dependent upon the newly married couple, or the heir on reachin majority, to add name X to the existing name Y. And some of these conglomerate names come about due to a convenient marriage between aristo (posh but poor) and nouveau riche (made money in the dreaded “trade” - no post history but a handy amount of filthy clucre. ---
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-hyphenated-names-a-sign-of-upper-class-status-in-britain/192474/9 "2003-08-03T07:30:13Z")
aha - I knew I could find a famous-ish example. This refers to the late queen mother. [quote] - The ancestral home, Glamis Castle was given to the Lyon family in 1372. The ninth Earl married an heiress Mary Eleanor Bowes of County Durham whose father’s fortune was built on coal mining. The tenth Earl took the surname Bowes- Lyon. [/quote\* [http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/stjohns/qmum1.html](http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/stjohns/qmum1.html) ---
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-hyphenated-names-a-sign-of-upper-class-status-in-britain/192474/10 "2003-08-03T07:32:21Z")
btw - I suppose you all know why the queen mother (as was) is like a chocolate egg? cos they both spent Easter in a box, ---
**Author:** ![antechinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-hyphenated-names-a-sign-of-upper-class-status-in-britain/192474/11 "2003-08-03T10:03:09Z")
My understanding is that in days-of-old when a woman of social-standing marries a man of not-so-social-standing and the womans surname was tacked on to prevent the womans surname being lost. Regards, antechinus-Smythe-Browne ---
**Author:** ![Rayne\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df705f/32.png) [@Rayne\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rayne_Man)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-hyphenated-names-a-sign-of-upper-class-status-in-britain/192474/12 "2003-08-03T10:29:46Z")
I have just finished reading a book about Denys Finch Hatton of " Out OF Africa " fame and he always insisted that his name was spelt without the hyphen. This is a family tradition dating back two hundred years and the present family members still stick to this rule. The book says " …the combination of names was not effected by other legal process than the decision of the family ( which would be legally valid ) in which case it would be in the power of the family to vary the hyphenation from time to time ." The book is " Silence Will Speak " by Errol Trzebinski. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2003, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-hyphenated-names-a-sign-of-upper-class-status-in-britain/192474/13 "2003-08-04T21:27:22Z")
Posted by **Rayne Man:** > [@](#): > > I have just finished reading a book about Denys Finch Hatton of " Out OF Africa " fame and he always insisted that his name was spelt without the hyphen. This is a family tradition dating back two hundred years and the present family members still stick to this rule. The book says " …the combination of names was not effected by other legal process than the decision of the family ( which would be legally valid ) in which case it would be in the power of the family to vary the hyphenation from time to time ." > > The book is " Silence Will Speak " by Errol Trzebinski. Now, that is very interesting . . . because it implies that even without the hyphen, a two-part last name can be passed down the generations as a single unit. That’s not done in the States, so far as I know. John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt would be presumed to be a person with one last name, “Schmidt,” and two middle names, “Jacob” and “Jingleheimer.” He would be listed in the phone book under “S,” not “J,” and his children would inherit the name “Schmidt,” but not “Jingleheimer,” unless he specified that in filling out the birth certificate. On the other hand, if his name were spelled John Jacob Jingleheimer-Schmidt, he would be listed under “J” and his children would automatically inherit the name “Jingleheimer-Schmidt.” ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2003, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-hyphenated-names-a-sign-of-upper-class-status-in-britain/192474/14 "2003-08-04T21:43:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BrainGlutton \* > \*\*Now, that is very interesting . . . because it implies that even without the hyphen, a two-part last name can be passed down the generations as a single unit. \*\* As the aforementioned Andrew Lloyd Webber (son of William Lloyd Webber and brother of Julian Lloyd Webber) would demonstrate, titles notwithstanding. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2003, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-hyphenated-names-a-sign-of-upper-class-status-in-britain/192474/15 "2003-08-04T21:51:49Z")
There’s also the reason, ‘it sounds good’, like when Mr Pine wed Miss Coffin…