Assumes facts not in evidence. Please present actual evidence that ICE agents and their families are being ‘doxxed’.
Stranger
This isn’t Factual Questions. It shouldn’t be in Factual Questions either. There is a reason it’s in Politics & Elections. “They might be doxxed” is a bullshit answer that completely ignores the deeper question of why the fuck should they worry about being doxxed if all that they are doing is legitimate law enforcement. Barring undercover agents, no officer in any law enforcement agency in the United States performs or ever has performed their duties masked and without their name and badge number prominently displayed. They are being “doxxed” every day, every hour they are on duty. Which plays a pretty big role in keeping them accountable for their actions.
This. It’s wrong. An unreasonable search and seizure is always the result of secret police actions.
To add: officers and agents of the DEA, FBI, and ATF arrest actual terrorists, Neo-Nazis, and actual members of dangerous, violent gangs (not just people who have MS-13 tattoos sloppily photoshopped on their hand when the original explanation of “we picked him up and deported him in error” suddenly became the “wrong” explanation politically). Groups that are actually armed, violent, and have already demonstrated a desire to or actually have committed violence against agents of the government. Groups that almost always are going to have un-arrested members still out on the streets whenever some of them are arrested. And yet barring undercover agents that have infiltrated said groups, none of these agencies perform arrests or their duties in masks bereft of any means of identifying them. The arresting officer’s names appear on the legal filings of the charges filed against those that they have arrested.
If the members of these agencies who are performing far, far, far more dangerous duties than ICE have never ‘required’ their identities to be concealed for fear of being ‘doxxed’ and having them or their families retaliated against it makes the whole official ‘explanation’ of protecting members of ICE and their families an even bigger pile of horseshit than it already is.
Boss: Why are you 3 hours late for work, again?
Employee: I forgot to turn my alarm on last night.
Boss: That’s not an excuse.
Something doesn’t have to be an excuse to be the reason. An explanation doesn’t have to be an attempt to get out of trouble. It doesn’t have to be something other people agree with. In the above back and forth, when I’m on the ‘employee’ side of that type of conversation, I usually end with “I didn’t say it was an excuse, you asked me why it happened…that’s why it happened”.
Point to where I said it was happening.
Something doesn’t have to be happening to want to protect yourself from it. And don’t forget, if they’re masked, it also means their own superiors and coworkers can’t ID (doxx) them either, or can plausibly deny that they can. Meaning even going after them legally is going to be difficult.
But it doesn’t matter if it’s a bullshit answer, it’s still why, I believe, they’re doing it.
That’s my point. Just because you don’t agree with it, doesn’t mean it’s not the case.
Maybe they know what they’re doing isn’t legitimate law enforcement. Therefore they want to hide their identity. People hide their identity all the time when they’re doing something they don’t want to be held accountable for. I’m not sure there needs to be much more reasoning beyond that.
So think about that. If the reason for them to be, in your words, doxxed every hour they’re on duty, is to keep them accountable, what motivation might they have to hide their identity? Perhaps so they can’t be held accountable.
I guess, at least to me, the reason why ICE agents hide their identity is as obvious as why a bank robber hides their identity.
And again, just to reiterate, I’m not defending what they’re doing, just offering what I believe to be the reason for it. They know what they’re doing is wrong so they’re hiding behind a mask.
Just to lower the stakes and take politics out of this for a minute, here’s an IRL example of something that I do. When I go to trade shows, one of the things I absolutely hate is when I hear my name and look over to realize it’s a random vendor that saw my badge. I’ve learned that I can just flip the badge around and it stops most of that. However some of these vendors have a problem with that go so far as to tell me to flip it back over, seemingly annoyed that I’m not playing by their rules. Thing is, I don’t care, not even a little bit, how much it bothers them. It doesn’t matter to me that they don’t agree with why I’m doing it, it’s still why I’m doing it.
Yes, exactly. Just to make sure we’re on the same page, at least for the purposes of this thread, I’m considering being held accountable and getting doxxed one in the same. You have to be ID’d to be held accountable so you hide your ID to avoid being held accountable.
Then the reason they’re masked isn’t so they won’t be doxxed. It’s so they won’t be prosecuted.
I don’t think those two words mean the same thing at all.
Exactly. Being held accountable is legal and part of the system. It’s like a politician losing an election. Being doxxed is having random strangers harass you, and it’s often illegal (although the laws haven’t always kept up with the practice.) It’s like having an assassin come to a politician’s door and kill her. One is a proper aspect of a functioning democracy and the other isn’t.
First you say:
And then reverse yourself:
Are you even listening to yourself and not understanding why you are getting pushback? It’s the official reason they gave, and it doesn’t matter if it’s a bullshit reason, it’s what they have said, and we must therefore accept that it is the actual reason. Not that you personally agree that it’s a good reason. And umm, you don’t really believe it’s the reason, you actually do know it has nothing to do with doxxing, it’s so they can’t be held accountable. It sounds something like this:
The Untermensch are being sent to the showers to delouse them. That’s what the SS-Totenkopfverbände are saying. It doesn’t matter if it’s a bullshit answer, it’s what the officials are telling them, so we must accept that it is the actual reason because it’s what the official reason they are giving is. Also, you know they’re not actually going in the showers to be deloused, they’re going in there to be exterminated. But you’re not defending what they’re doing. You’re just saying that delousing must be accepted as the reason they are putting people in the showers, because it’s what they said to the people before putting them in the showers.
I’ll also note that we’re not talking about individuals with improvised masks; we’re talking about official troops all of whom are wearing what appear to be officially provided masks. Therefore they’re doing so under orders: some superior officer in their chain of command told them to wear those masks.
The intent of that officer (or those officers) wasn’t necessarily anything to do with protecting the arresting personnel from either legal and proper, or illegal and improper, consequences. It may well have been to intimidate both those being arrested, and witnesses to the arrests. Or, of course, it may have been mixed.
Yes, I can and I do. The atrocities STARTED with an attempt at mass deportation. The beginning of Trumps actions closely match the beginnings of Hitler’s actions. Do you think it won’t continue down the same path?
In some cases, Trump’s deportations amount to a death sentence. He will place people directly into the hands of a foreign dictator who will kill them.
Do you think he will stop there?
Or the militarization of the police following KC - and especially so - 9/11. Security on routine duty at government buildings really need their pants tucked into their military boots? No question but that intimidation is a significant portion of the reason. (Well, in the instance of various police - spending tons of $ on gear that will rarely if ever be used was also a big factor. Not sure ICE masks allow similar budget inflation…)
Pet killer Christy Noem said at the congressional hearing that the masks where to protect their identity because they are in undercover operations.
There are not enough 
these to respond.
Their ‘undercover’ operations are harassing people on the street and kidnapping them. That’s it, that’s the whole ‘undercover’ operation.
Let me dress in a cop uniform and say my car is ‘undercover’ and pull you over, and I have a mask on. No ID. Hmmmm. What do you think of that you animal abuser Christy, you OK with that if I pull you over? Hmmm?
What has that got to do with having no name tags and wearing masks?
That’s funny - there are all sorts of lists of federal , state and local government employees/retirees that list such information as their name, salary/pension, agency, job title. Because apparently the prevailing belief is that the public has the right to know this information about public employees and expenditures and therefore it is public information. A couple of years ago, I was searching for an old friend and one of the results I got was the federal agency he worked for , his title and his salary going back to 2015.
It’s not at all uncommon for law enforcement officers to be required to identify themselves in some way, if only by wearing badges with numbers. The agency I worked for fired an officer in part because she refused to identify herself - part of our initial training was that we were to identify ourselves to anyone. Doesn’t mean the officers were happy with it (I know more than one who was upset/surprised to find they had to give their full name when testifying in court) but the agency was serious about it.
Just suggesting that LEOs adopting a more intimidating stance has been going on for 3 decades at least. Thought it a more timely reference than the KKK.
But ICE agents aren’t taking after the military-They are taking after South American goon squads.
In fact, the list of “Crimes Against Humanity” include forcible transfer of population, and secret abduction and imprisonment.
ICE agents are masked for the same reason any criminal is: so they cannot be identified.
I wonder if Newsome could claim an epidemic of masked criminals posing as ICE, and therefore ban all wearing of masks without proper ID. And check them all for their authority to brandish high powered weaponry on Ca streets.