# "Why are incels so angry?" **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 28, 2018, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269 "2018-04-28T16:45:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/181 "2018-04-30T18:15:03Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > If the author cannot see the difference, he is a sociopath and a very broken human. > > I wonder how many sexual assaults and unwanted advances that college has ignored. To be clear, he seems to be arguing that we should happily let people starve, not that we should tolerate rape. Seems. I can’t be certain. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/182 "2018-04-30T18:22:57Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Here’s a twisted fuck from the other direction. A Libertarian economist who asks—rhetorically, I hope?—if you feel sorry for a hungry man who steals then why don’t you feel sorry for a sex-starved man who rapes? > > [George Mason University's Robin Hanson might be America’s creepiest economist.](https://slate.com/business/2018/04/economist-robin-hanson-might-be-americas-creepiest-professor.html) Well, food is needed for survival. Sex is not. Granted, it has been demonstrated that loneliness and being starved of intimacy can have serious health effects, but that’s not as dire as death. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/183 "2018-04-30T18:32:44Z")
Of course prostitution sex is not enough. No one “cool” brags about banging prostitutes. Indeed, no one wants to be known as the kind of guy who has to get sex from prostitutes. These guys want to be in a relationship with a real girlfriend. They don’t want a rent-a-friend. This is why I hate that the discussion is always about virginity. These guys wouldn’t be filled with rage if they had girlfriends who wanted to wait until marriage before having sex. Sexual frustration, yes. But not rage. Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/184 "2018-04-30T18:43:39Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > These guys wouldn’t be filled with rage if they had girlfriends who wanted to wait until marriage before having sex. Sexual frustration, yes. But not rage. Do we really know this, though? We’re talking about self-identified _incels_, not your standard persistently single guy. While it’s tempting to think that a relationship is all these cats need to get their minds right, that presumes that a relationship is the main thing lacking in their lives. It’s very likely that is _not_ the case. Some may be single because the deck is stacked against them, and others (like Elliot Rodgers) are single because they are sociopaths. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/185 "2018-04-30T19:02:26Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Numerically, how would this work, though? Women can’t all be pairing up with middle to upper echelon men, because there wouldn’t be enough to go around. So obviously a good many of these women are either dating “down”, “across”, or not at all. > > While it’s probably truly difficult for a mediocre-looking, low wage-earning man to date nowadays, it’s also easier to ruminate about the difficulty. Some high-ranking men can date multiple women at the same time. FWIW, this phenomenon is well known in nature. Check out the Wikipedia article on the behavior of the bower bird, for instance: > [@](#): > > Many females end up selecting the same male, and many under-performing males are left without copulations. Females mated with top-mating males tend to return to the male the next year and search less. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/186 "2018-04-30T19:14:52Z")
I don’t think most of these guys are sociopaths. I do not even know that this best describes Elliot Rodgers. For whatever reason, these people feel cheated out of a “normal” life. Sex is a feature of normal life but it is not a “showy” one. But a girlfriend is a status symbol. Especially when she is hot. I mean, we can speculate that these guys are so fucked up that they would be angry even if they had unlimited women, fame, and fortune. But to me, that implies that these guys do not actually have unmet needs and desires and that they magically exist outside of their environments. I do not think that is fair. Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/187 "2018-04-30T20:00:42Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I think people tend to fall back on the platitude “There is someone for everyone”. We will readily acknowlege that not everyone is employable (at least in terms of getting a “good” job with livable wages and full benefits). The same with other resources or opportunities (not everyone can be on the cheerleading team, not everyone will be accepted for a mortgage). But we have a different view of romance. This is unfair world for everything except that. > > I totally agree that a lot of young people (not just Incels) have unrealistic standards and are aiming way out of their league. Of course dating is not just a game of finding someone you like. Someone also has to like you back. However, the harsh truth is that not everyone is likeable, just like how not everyone is smart, funny, or physically attractive. How do we teach young people the truth (Not everyone wins in the romance game even when you have realistic standards and are trying your hardest) without implying they are a failure with no worth? I think it would be a hard message to hear for even the most stoic person. We acknowledge unfairness in employment, and other things, but we also encourage people to keep trying in spite of it. Work harder, go back to school and get a degree, that sort of thing. “There’s someone for everyone” usually strikes me the same way; a message to keep trying. Unfair or not, I’m not sure there is a better option. If that’s missing from your life, I’m not sure what else could take it’s place. Also, it’s a lot easier to categorize and keep score with something like employment. Do as good a job as someone else and get passed over for promotion, that’s unfair. But no one can say who’s a better or worse boyfriend (or girlfriend). It’s so different for every individual. I’m not competing with other men for the one perfect woman, I’m trying to find one that I’m perfect with. > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > In their view, before the sexual revolution men who were 3s had sex with women who were 3s. Now the 3s all want men who are 7s, and with all the women dating up a lot of guys feel very angry and forgotten. > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Numerically, how would this work, though? Women can’t all be pairing up with middle to upper echelon men, because there wouldn’t be enough to go around. So obviously a good many of these women are either dating “down”, “across”, or not at all. I think the complaint is that men who express frustration with their romantic endeavors are considered to be toxic, self-entitled assholes, and women who do it become a TV series with Sarah Jessica Parker. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/188 "2018-04-30T20:06:13Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > For whatever reason, these people feel cheated out of a “normal” life. Sex is a feature of normal life but it is not a “showy” one. But a girlfriend is a status symbol. Especially when she is hot. I’m not really sure how much that enters into it. In my case, I’m not looking for a status symbol. If I want to date someone, I don’t care that anyone else thinks she’s hot or not. I care about how we’d be together and how we’d make each other feel. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/189 "2018-04-30T20:10:02Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > This is why I hate that the discussion is always about virginity. Well, you should take that up with the incels, who are, after all, the subject of the thread, and whose beef is they never have sex. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/190 "2018-04-30T20:19:56Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I’m not really sure how much that enters into it. In my case, I’m not looking for a status symbol. If I want to date someone, I don’t care that anyone else thinks she’s hot or not. I care about how we’d be together and how we’d make each other feel. But you are not an Incel, right? Just being unhappily single does not make an Incel. That is who I am talking about. Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/191 "2018-04-30T20:29:16Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Well, you should take that up with the incels, who are, after all, the subject of the thread, and whose beef is they never have sex. That is what they say. But I am not obligated to believe them. After all, they are a bunch of whiny sociopathic assholes, right? What the fuck do they know about anything? Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/192 "2018-04-30T20:30:32Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I don’t think most of these guys are sociopaths. I do not even know that this best describes Elliot Rodgers. I think it’s fair to say Rodgers had more going on than just a lack of a girlfriend. If not sociopathy, some other thing. The things he said in his manifesto scream distorted thinking along the lines of mental illness. > [@](#): > > I mean, we can speculate that these guys are so fucked up that they would be angry even if they had unlimited women, fame, and fortune. But to me, that implies that these guys do not actually have unmet needs and desires and that they magically exist outside of their environments. I do not think that is fair. Once you have on your hands a guy angry enough to plow cars into people and categorize all of humanity into Stacies and Chads, it’s reasonable to think their unmet needs are deeper than what they _think_ they need. To reduce it all the not having a girlfriend makes as much as sense as me assuming the opposite, which is that having girlfriend makes you a good, sane person. I dunno, I just think we have to be careful with any speculation. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/193 "2018-04-30T20:39:12Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > But you are not an Incel, right? Just being unhappily single does not make an Incel. That is who I am talking about. No, I’m not; but plenty of other people in this thread are making assumptions about what Incels believe, thought I’d join in. ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/194 "2018-04-30T20:56:18Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I think it’s fair to say Rodgers had more going on than just a lack of a girlfriend. If not sociopathy, some other thing. The things he said in his manifesto scream distorted thinking along the lines of mental illness. > > … > > Once you have on your hands a guy angry enough to plow cars into people and categorize all of humanity into Stacies and Chads, it’s reasonable to think their unmet needs are deeper than what they _think_ they need. To reduce it all the not having a girlfriend makes as much as sense as me assuming the opposite, which is that having girlfriend makes you a good, sane person. > > I dunno, I just think we have to be careful with any speculation. Indeed, ISTM that by a very rough estimate, how many adult men and women in North America qualify as “incels”? A lot, a sh\*tload, tons? Some big big number. Of those, how many have violently killed a number of people because of their inability to deal with their fate? 2, that we know of. So, again ISTM that discussing incels is valid and interesting, in and of itself. But conflating incels with the 2 who did the violent killing? It really is not meaningful. They did something crazy because they were crazy - it could just as easily been that they thought they were getting signals from the nearby cell towers as that they happened to be incels and used that as a motivation for their behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/195 "2018-04-30T21:01:51Z")
I’d never heard or seen the term before running into this thread. I’m familiar with the damage and derp of the Red Pill set, but couldn’t tell you anything about these folks, not even what the fuck ‘incel’ means. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/196 "2018-04-30T21:05:50Z")
you with the face, you are speculating that all of these guys are sociopaths. That is kind of crazy to me. All I am saying is that they have unmet needs–whether they be emotional (likely), sexual, status (almost certainly), or all of the above and then some. Is that really a big leap? I think the assertion that they are all fucktard psychos is more of a stretch than the one I am making. I don’t think gangsta thugs are born that way, even if they do display sociopathic behavior. I do not think human behavior is that simple. Lest I be misunderstood, I am not talking about people exactly like Elliot Rodgers. I am talking about people who have taken a few sips of the hateraide koolaide, but they haven’t drunk the whole glass and likely never will. I am not ready to throw all of these people into the hopeless “sociopath” category. Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/197 "2018-04-30T21:11:55Z")
Look, its human nature to be jealous of and be angry when you see all the people around you getting something (anything) that you can’t get. The problem here is getting angry about it and sharing that anger with other people like you and letting that fester and make you even more angry about not having the things you want to have. That just breeds stupid ideas and excuses for why you can’t. Then once you cross that “It’s not me, it’s everyone else” line, you’re done for. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/198 "2018-04-30T21:31:18Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > No, I’m not; but plenty of other people in this thread are making assumptions about what Incels believe, thought I’d join in. Ok, but chiming in what you personally want is making the discussion a little confusing. I don’t think unhappily single people want the same thing that the stereotypical Incel wants. The average poster on the Forever Alone subreddit is lonely and clearly is longing for companionship as well as sex. The average Incel posting on an Incel forum is not posting about companionship. They are posting about killing Chads and Stacies and making them “pay”. To me, that speaks to a desire for status and status symbols and power in addition to the other things. Horniness and loneliness don’t make people murderous. That said, I am extermely open to the idea that these guys are hiding their loneliness through macho bravado. The idea that they are all sociopaths seems way too pat to me. But surely there is something different about a guy who self-identifies as an Incel versus one who identifies as a Forever Aloner. I am not thinking the overlap is all that great. Maybe the average Incel knows he isn’t capable of killing anyone, but he just enjoys the thrill of the idea. Maybe the rhetoric makes him feel powerful (like carrying a gun except with words). I am curious what you think is going on. Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/199 "2018-04-30T21:35:31Z")
> [@Icarus](#): > > Indeed, ISTM that by a very rough estimate, how many adult men and women in North America qualify as “incels”? A lot, a sh\*tload, tons? Some big big number. An incel is not just a person who can’t get laid. Incels are a community. A creepy, woman-hating community. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/200 "2018-04-30T21:47:56Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I found the non-judgmental listener in therapy, but many people can’t afford therapy. They turn to family, friends, and internet strangers. Like you guys! :o > [@](#): > > Most adult virgins have double, triple, quadriple whammies. It’s not just that they’ve never had a girlfriend. But they also don’t have many friends. They often have mental illness or neurological issues to deal with (like I deal with). They may have physical defects, like severe acne or obesity. They likely do not have very prestigious jobs and thus lack the trappings of financial success. So your average Incel isn’t fucked-up in the head because he can’t get laid. He’s fucked-up in the head because he’s at the bottom of every hierarchy he can think of. And everywhere he turns, someone is shaming him. Shaming him cuz he hasn’t touched a girl. Shaming him cuz he’s an Aspie. Shaming him because he’s fat and can’t run around the track without vomitting. Shaming him because he lives in his mom’s basement. As many of you know, I am currently involuntarily celibate, and was for the last twenty years of my marriage. I was never, as an adult, shamed for all of those things. at least that I heard, but I didn’t need others to shame me because I had myself. Even when I was married, a father, and moderately successful there was a voice digging at me, calling me a loser. Now I am widowed, unemployed, unable to drive for a few more months, living in my own basement, a big, fat, half-crippled fuck and I can stand up (slowly) and call the InCels the real losers because I chose an internet community that won’t feed and reinforce my negative thoughts. > [@silenus](#): > > Are you new here? There is a 7 page thread currently in CS on _ordering a sandwich at Subway_, fer Og’s sake! To let others know how lame it is, _ **I** _ bowed out of it pages ago. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269.md?page=11)