# "Why are incels so angry?" **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 28, 2018, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269 "2018-04-28T16:45:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/581 "2018-05-08T16:17:33Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Wow. Didn’t realize I had to be _involuntarily_ celibate to purchase a vibrator. Or that using one to pleasure myself instead of having a one-night stand or an unsatisfactory relationship with a man indicated that I was somehow unhappy or dissatisfied. No no, of course not; the vibrator reference was just a feeble attempt at a joke. Shoulda smileyed it. 🙂 > [@Broomstick](#): > > If it was just a matter of having an orgasm these incel types could “solve” their problem with masturbation… but it’s not the real problem. If it was just a matter of having sex they could either pay for a cheap whore or find a willing woman of less than supermodel looks and get laid… but it’s not the real problem. What they really want is a “relationship” where they are unquestionably in control and can demand anything and everything from their [del]sex slave[/del] partner. They want to treat a relationship like buying a car - you go and select what you want, the colors, the options, the extras, and you’re in total control. And they want it as cheaply as possible. Yes. And furthermore, they want it not so much for the sake of any intrinsic pleasure they’ll derive from it as for the sake of impressing their peers and increasing their perceived status. **Disclaimer that has become obligatory in this thread:** Of course, the people I’m talking about here are the ones who are self-identifying as part of the “incel movement” and promoting “incel” ideologies of misogyny and hate. I’m not trying to disparage well-meaning and non-misogynistic men who simply happen to be unsuccessful at sex and relationships, whom a number of posters in this thread maintain should be included in the designation “incel”. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/582 "2018-05-08T16:32:56Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I want to learn from my missteps, but first I have to know what they are. I realize it’s hard to do in practice. There’s potential for hurt feelings, but there’s also potential to learn something. If I was on the other side, and someone was trying to learn from what I thought, I hope I’d handle it with all the grace and tact I could muster, but I also hope I’d be helpful. Just following up on this point I missed earlier: It’s good that people want to learn how to improve in dating, or any other aspect of life, and it’s an excellent idea to seek helpful advice, either from a professional counselor of some kind or from people who know you that you can discuss things openly with. But nobody should ever be expecting any potential date who turns them down to provide them with feedback or critiques or explanations or anything else about why they turned them down. That person doesn’t owe you any information except a polite and honest answer as to whether they’re willing to go on a date with you. Some people can be rather demanding about seeking feedback from the people who reject them, with the same mindset of _“well how can I improve at attracting people if I don’t know what it is about me that’s turning people off?”_ The thing is, though, that people who don’t know you well have no way of knowing how you’ll react to honest feedback or criticism. Most people who’ve turned down requests for dates at some points in their life have had the experience of dealing with a “negotiator”, somebody who treats rejection as the first step in a bargaining process that they hope they can eventually leverage into getting a date after all. Other people who’ve been rejected are very insecure about criticism, even when they’ve explicitly **asked** for feedback, and respond to it with antagonism or even acts of retaliation. These people are at best annoying nuisances and at worst genuinely dangerous. **The person who turned you down for a date cannot tell whether you might be one of those people, and you should not be expecting them to risk giving you feedback about why they rejected you when they can’t be sure you’re not one of those people.** Just because you’d like some feedback as additional data for your self-improvement program doesn’t constitute an obligation on their part to take that risk. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/583 "2018-05-08T16:53:48Z")
What **Kimstu** says - don’t expect the women who turn you down to tell you why. Ask a dating coach, ask a platonic female friend. And it might not be something about you that needs to be “fixed”, or about your approach. Sometimes, sometimes most of the time, they just aren’t interested. Plus, “tell me what is wrong” sometimes has an implied “if I fix it then you will go out with me” and that’s creepy. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/584 "2018-05-08T17:24:23Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I do, however, have one general gripe that’s not against you or any other poster here but rather against society as a whole. Social isolation/celibacy/loneliness/shaming, ISTM, is joining the rather lengthy list of modern phenomena that Suddenly Become a Major Social Crisis When Men Start Being Significantly Affected By Them. > > A society abundantly supplied with lonely bereaved widows and despised old maids, in which bachelorhood was perceived as far more glamorous and voluntary than spinsterhood, used to be largely taken for granted as just part of how things were. Now that increased female independence and feminism in general have made male companionship less socially indispensable for women, the percentage of men among the lonely and scoffed-at is growing, and consequently being lonely and scoffed-at is now a Huge Fucking Deal. I work in health and aging policy, which is an area where loneliness and social isolation have been a big deal for a while because it’s killing people. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/585 "2018-05-08T17:46:02Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > On a more serious note, is anybody going to find hardish numbers on how big this “movement” actually is? And whether we really need to worry about it? Sure, a couple of outliers got violent, but, being crazy, they would probably have found something to get violent about. Most mentally ill people don’t commit violent acts, so “being crazy” is not a sufficient explanation. And I think “a couple of outliers” is lowballing the phenomenon somewhat. Marc Lepine in 1989 murdered 14 women and injured 14 other people in his misogyny-fueled shooting spree. Elliot Rodger murdered six people and injured 14 in his 2014 rampage. Both of them are frequently lauded on online incel forums. Minassian’s Toronto attack explicitly involved homage to Rodger, and Parkland school shooter Nikolas Cruz is known to have posted admiringly about Rodger online too. Both of them are now also lauded on online incel forums. It is a very common response to try to deflect concerns about misogynistic terrorism onto issues of mental illness. But misogynistic terrorism, like white supremacist terrorism and radical Islamist terrorism etc., is an ideology and a movement in its own right, independent of the individual mental problems of the people who commit mass murder in its name. And of course, there are also all the “random” mass killings committed by men out of anger over a dispute with their wives or girlfriends, who are usually among the first victims of the killings. (And that’s not even considering all the “mere” single-victim killings of women by husbands, boyfriends, exes or other male connections who are angry with them.) **Men killing women out of aggrieved entitlement and resentment that they aren’t getting something that they feel they are “owed” from women—sex, obedience, a continued relationship, whatever—is a serious and systematic social pathology.** It’s not just a matter of one or two random “lone nuts” who might just as easily have murdered random strangers over a dispute about barbecue sauce. It’s about the misogyny. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/586 "2018-05-08T19:03:27Z")
And insanity. Sane people don’t go on murderous rampages. Violence coming out of “aggrieved entitlement and resentment” is not sane behavior. You have provided three examples (Cruz is only a partial hit) spread over 29 years, and the first was before the incel “movement.” This tells me, as if I didn’t know already, that violent misogyny is not new, but I see that the internet is feeding it. What we are faced with is a need to address it and a method how. I don’t think the worst got there because they were ridiculed, but a solution for deflecting the young’uns is ridicule from their peers. Not from Chads or Janets, but from guys like me who can relate to their difficulties. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/587 "2018-05-08T19:20:36Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > And insanity. Sane people don’t go on murderous rampages. Violence coming out of “aggrieved entitlement and resentment” is not sane behavior. Sure, though we tend not to see as much recognition of this fact when the resentful murderous rampagers are, e.g., Islamic jihadists. As with all forms of terrorist violence, what we need to combat misogynist terrorism are two simultaneous approaches: 1. recognition that people who commit and encourage such crimes are voluntarily espousing a hateful and violent ideology, which is not excused or justified no matter what individual mental problems or sincerely felt grievances they may have; 2. awareness that a minority of mentally ill people are sometimes vulnerable to being radicalized into hateful and violent ideologies, and that we need to combat the toxic movements that are radicalizing them, as well as treating their illnesses and trying to address the root causes of their resentment and unhappiness. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/588 "2018-05-08T19:29:25Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > And insanity. Sane people don’t go on murderous rampages. Violence coming out of “aggrieved entitlement and resentment” is not sane behavior. You have provided three examples (Cruz is only a partial hit) spread over 29 years, and the first was before the incel “movement.” This tells me, as if I didn’t know already, that violent misogyny is not new, but I see that the internet is feeding it. What we are faced with is a need to address it and a method how. I don’t think the worst got there because they were ridiculed, but a solution for deflecting the young’uns is ridicule from their peers. Not from Chads or Janets, but from guys like me who can relate to their difficulties. I don’t know if we can say the internet is feeding it or if we can say that the internet is making it possible to identify it. Maybe someone going online and leaving a manifesto or just facebook posts make it easier to see the misogyny where years ago we would have had to guess. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/589 "2018-05-08T19:29:43Z")
The VT shooter wasn’t Incel. Neither was the Newtown shooter or the Oregon shooter. But they were all socially isolated angry young men. And the self-identified Incels who are killing up folks are NOT discriminating against men and women. That’s why (to me) it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to just fixate on the misogyny of the Incel movement. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/590 "2018-05-08T19:50:48Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Sure, though we tend not to see as much recognition of this fact when the resentful murderous rampagers are, e.g., Islamic jihadists. No, we don’t, but we should. > [@monstro](#): > > The VT shooter wasn’t Incel. Neither was the Newtown shooter or the Oregon shooter. But they were all socially isolated angry young men. And the self-identified Incels who are killing up folks are NOT discriminating against men and women. That’s why (to me) it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to just fixate on the misogyny of the Incel movement. This. It’s not just that they hate women. They hate everyone. I think I will join one of those incel MBs and see if I can make some headway before I’m banned. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/591 "2018-05-08T20:11:40Z")
> [@Tee](#): > > I totally agree. That’s a reasonable dealbreaker for people. It doesn’t really lessen my concern in your case though, because you’ve said you have trouble on the relationship front and I don’t know how you approach women. This: _If she rejected me, I might be disappointed, but…_ your friends would want to know how you weren’t aware of this important religious requirement in the first place, and did you unknowingly set yourself up for that disappointment I think you’re too focused on the specific examples I gave, like sports or religion. There are a thousand axes like that; city/country, winter/summer, morning/evening, cats/dogs, Coke/Pepsi. My main point was that it would be helpful to know, and not have to spend years guessing. > [@](#): > > It’s supposed to be fun, you know? Not painful. Yeah, of course, but I’m not sure you can have one without the other. If there’s someone I want to spend time with, and she doesn’t, that’s gonna hurt a little. If I ask and get turned down, and I’m not disappointed, then I probably wasn’t very hopeful to begin with. > [@Kimstu](#): > > Just following up on this point I missed earlier: It’s good that people want to learn how to improve in dating, or any other aspect of life, and it’s an excellent idea to seek helpful advice, either from a professional counselor of some kind or from people who know you that you can discuss things openly with. > > But nobody should ever be expecting any potential date who turns them down to provide them with feedback or critiques or explanations or anything else about why they turned them down. That person doesn’t owe you any information except a polite and honest answer as to whether they’re willing to go on a date with you. > > Some people can be rather demanding about seeking feedback from the people who reject them, with the same mindset of _“well how can I improve at attracting people if I don’t know what it is about me that’s turning people off?”_ > > The thing is, though, that people who don’t know you well have no way of knowing how you’ll react to honest feedback or criticism. Most people who’ve turned down requests for dates at some points in their life have had the experience of dealing with a “negotiator”, somebody who treats rejection as the first step in a bargaining process that they hope they can eventually leverage into getting a date after all. Other people who’ve been rejected are very insecure about criticism, even when they’ve explicitly **asked** for feedback, and respond to it with antagonism or even acts of retaliation. These people are at best annoying nuisances and at worst genuinely dangerous. > > **The person who turned you down for a date cannot tell whether you might be one of those people, and you should not be expecting them to risk giving you feedback about why they rejected you when they can’t be sure you’re not one of those people.** Just because you’d like some feedback as additional data for your self-improvement program doesn’t constitute an obligation on their part to take that risk. All excellent points. I don’t think I ever have asked someone who turned me down why they did so; certainly don’t remember having done so. This particular sub-topic was started by comments about wondering what a woman sees in another man, particularly someone who’s faults (to put it mildly) are glaringly obvious. I’d never directly ask a woman that, either. My point was just that there are reasons why it would be nice to know, or to be able to figure it out. And you’re right about discussing this with people I can be open with. I’ve done that, but I’m not sure I act quite the same with someone I want to date as I do with friends I’ve known for years. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/592 "2018-05-08T20:43:51Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Okay, sure, it was mean of her. But it’s not her job to fix your flaws, nor is it anyone else’s job–unless you’re paying them to do that job. That’s what the therapist comment was about. > > It sounds a lot like you’re vexed that all these women are unattracted to you but not providing you feedback about what’s unattractive about you. Why should they? What’s in it for them? You might not react to criticism by flying off the handle and calling them horrible names, or worse–but talk to some women about how men have handled rejection around them, and you’ll understand why women can be cagey about giving blunt feedback. I am not vexed that women do not give feedback. I am making an observation that there is no feedback to be had. I am actually trying my best to describe with objective dispassion a guy who may share a name with myself, but not the last decade plus. > [@](#): > > And again: it’s not their job to give you that feedback, to tell you that your smile isn’t good, or that you call too often, or that your shirt has mustard stains on it, or that your breath is foul, or that the way you make eye contact a little too long is creepy, or that you’re missing chances to ask women out when they’re interested in you, or that your body language screams a lack of interest and/or a lack of confidence, or whatever. Not their job, however vexing it is for you. > > Absolutely it’s hard to fix a problem when you don’t know it exists. It’s still not their job to tell you that it exists. > > Again: if it’s a serious problem for you, there are people whose job it REALLY IS to tell you what you can do about it. It’s their job because you and they voluntarily exchange your money for their expertise. Those people are therapists. When I ask what your therapist says, I’m not being condescending or insulting, just reminding you to turn to the people whose advice you ARE owed to get said advice. And all of this is essentially true if I am blaming women for not giving feedback. I am not. I am simply stating that there is no feedback to be had. As there have been posters here, and in the wide world, who have stated that it is the person’s responsibility to fix their own flaws, which I agree with, it also does need to be pointed out that those flaws are hard to detect. Once again, I am not assigning blame for this, especially not towards women, and it does feel as though your post is in the tone that I am. > [@Tee](#): > > I don’t agree that the label comes from the outside. It’s a subculture. Not only do they identify themselves, but they are gatekeepers of the identity, and with the identity comes an ideology. You can’t just apply it to lonely or celibate people because you or anyone else thinks they fit there. The term did originate from outside what is now known as incel culture. It was originated by someone that wanted to claim it as her own, to describe herself and other people like herself, and it got co-opted by others. It has long sordid history that I don’t feel like entirely digging into, much less repeating, but it is certainly not that clear cut. As I said earlier, for the first few seconds after reading up on what an Incel was, I though it wasn’t a bad description of myself, until I read the rest of what is said. Have you read the entry in “[urban dictionary?](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=incel)”. Do you think that that was written by someone inside or outside of the culture? > [@](#): > > This was not addressed to me, but often the lack of chemistry, “not clicking” or whatever you want to call it is the reason. Sometimes two people look like they’d be good together on paper, but it doesn’t work in practice and nobody did anything wrong. Yeah, that was what was after the "but"s. Lack of chemistry, compatibility, romantic interest, others I don’t feel like trying to dig up to remember… > [@Kimstu](#): > > If they don’t criticize and challenge the misogyny that some members of the community express because they’re afraid of risking their “acceptance” in the community, then yes, they’re okay with misogyny. I see that as a bit harsh. There are some misogynists on this board. If you do not criticize and challenge them every time they make a post, does that mean that you are okay with misogyny? My experience with online forums involved in such matters is limited to dating advice blogs and forums that I read a bit on, but never participated in, more than ten years ago. I’ve not ever visited the reddit incels, nor any forum that markets itself as towards incels. However, on these dating advice forums and blogs, I did see a decent amount of misogynistic content. Usually in treating all women as though they are the same, both in how to attract them, and in why they aren’t attracted to you. Complaints about women, spoken in general, were fairly frequent. I also saw people giving useful advice. I didn’t see people getting beaten on because they had a sad story of striking out, yet again. That some people on the forum were more blaming and even hating towards women didn’t change the fact that there was actually positive content to be had out of it as well. For an exaqmple, there are those who feel that the [NRA is a terrorist organization](https://www.journal-news.com/news/local/nra-billboard-warren-county-getting-lots-attention/qTVh98caQd2q7EOOdA2oQO/). The people in it do not feel that way. Who is right? > [@](#): > > I’m starting to get the impression that you’re using this term in a kind of idiosyncratic sense. No, I am using it any time you suggest that there are two, and only two, options, when there are in fact, a nearly infinite number of options in a wide spectrum across several axies. > [@](#): > > You still haven’t given us any evidence in support of your claim that the **ONLY** communities that will accept such a person are misogyny-friendly ones. That’s because that’s not the claim I am making. I am only making the claim that people will not be accepted in communities like this one, where, no matter how dispassionately I try to objectively describe the difficulties that a guy I just happen to know well had, I get feedback that I’m vexed, or that I’m blaming women. Same is going to be for most general purpose and specific forums. They don’t want to hear about some loser striking out on a date again. The forums that don’t beat on people because they post stories about rejection are going to contain more misogyny than those that do beat on people because they post stories about rejection. I am re-writing this paragraph because I used some specific posters as examples, but realized that that is probably against board rules, but not really meaning to be generalized, there have been some posters here who have complained about their personal problems. They are usually beaten on by other posters until the mods ban them for their own good. > [@](#): > > If the customers were deliberately blaming **you** for something that wasn’t your fault, then I repeat, they were taking their frustration out on you in a cruel and hateful way. Just because it’s natural for people to want to do that sort of thing when they feel angry and frustrated doesn’t mean it’s not hateful. I still don’t think that it is necessarily hateful, but at least you are here saying that it is natural. > [@](#): > > Again with your puzzlingly idiosyncratic use of language. How is your merely saying “it’s about time” when the late mail arrives an instance of your **blaming** the mailman? > > Actually **blaming** the mailman would involve saying something that indicates you think the lateness was his **fault** , such as “Gee, hope you didn’t strain yourself finally getting here, you lazy bum”. Merely saying “it’s about time” is about as mild and non-blamey a way of expressing your general feelings of frustration at the lateness of the mail as I can think of. I have no idea here. I feel that if you say, with dripping condescension, “It’s about time” to anyone who is running late for anything for any reason, that that is pretty much putting them on the spot and calling them out for inconveniencing you. > [@](#): > > I already answered that question. Yes, blaming someone for something when you don’t **know** it’s their fault is hateful and mean. Then there are quite a number of hateful and mean people out there. You even say that it’s natural, so they outnumber those who are not. I think that you are using a very loose definition of hate here. Like a “I hate mondays” level of definition, to the point where the definition means nothing. The definition of hate that I am using is to feel intense or passionate dislike of someone. > [@](#): > > ISTM that you’re still not getting this, or else I’m just not getting how you interpret words. No, blaming the mailman for being late with the mail **if it was actually his fault** is not hateful. But since “it’s about time” isn’t a blamey sort of expression anyway, your example kind of falls flat. Sure, it’s not hateful, but it is certainly blaming. If you showed up late, and I said, “It’s about time.” Would you not feel on the defensive, as though you need to justify why it was not your fault that you were late? > [@Kimstu](#): > > :dubious: While I’m all in favor of disapproving of, criticizing, and despising misogynists in general, I think it sounds a bit odd for such a man to foreground **resenting** misogynists because they get more dates than he does. Your “because” there is entirely an assumption on your part made out of whole cloth and preconceptions. I was making a comparison, showing that a person who doesn’t resent men who date women, may resent misogynists. The reason for the comparison was specifically to show that it is not because he is dating the women that one wants to date, but because he is beating women. Maybe it was poor communication on my part, but it makes this, and the rest of your post, completely unrelated to what I was talking about. > [@](#): > > That makes it seem as though what he really objects to about the misogynists is not so much their abusing women, but rather the fact that they’re more sexually successful than he is even though they abuse women. > > I don’t think such a man should necessarily be labeled as a “misogynist”. But I do think it would be kind of jerkish for a man to react to a woman’s physical maltreatment by her partner by making the situation all about himself. I.e., complaining that it’s baffling and unfair that a woman-beater can get pussy while he, a non-woman-beater, cannot. > > Do you get how it could come across as rather selfish and entitled and callous for a man to respond to his co-worker’s being physically injured and endangered by a domestic abuser with a whine about the unfairness of a domestic abuser having a relationship when he himself doesn’t have one? As in, _“ **Really** , dude? **That’s** the part about your co-worker’s boyfriend **punching her through a fucking wall** that really bugs you?”_ :dubious: See, all of this assumes that one resents misogynists only because they are dating women. And not because they are beating women. That is so far away from what I said, I really have no reply. > [@](#): > > A non-misogynistic man doesn’t look to abusers as “lifted up” role models, no matter how sexually successful they may be or how “desperate and unfortunate” he may be. No, they don’t, not at first. But people do follow examples. > [@](#): > > Do you see how it can seem kind of whiny and selfish and victim-blaming for a man to say things like _“Well if women won’t date me but they will date a man who hits them, maybe I should try hitting them too!”_ Isn’t that to some extent selfishly elevating the man’s own feelings of loneliness and deprivation above the basic ethical imperative not to abuse other people? > > The man we’re talking about may not in fact be a misogynist, but he sure seems to be prioritizing his own feelings of aggrieved sexual dissatisfaction above the feelings of women he claims to like well enough to want to date them. It goes without saying that any man who would **actually** physically abuse a woman because he has some distorted notion that it might help with getting him laid is not only a misogynist but a violent criminal, and has completely forfeited any claims to sympathy he might have had on the grounds of his being “desperate and unfortunate” or “socially awkward”. Once again, you are assuming motives completely on your own here. > [@raventhief](#): > > If your only goal is to get laid, them I could maybe see forgoing any concern for your coworker who is in an abusive relationship. Yeah, that awful man gets pussy, as I don’t!!! > I’ve been in an abusive relationship, and anyone who looked at my bruises and resented that asshole getting some while they just languished alone- well, that guy wouldn’t be much of a friend to me. > If he claimed to care about me, on any level, while thinking perhaps Abusive Asshole was maybe someone to emulate- well, he’s an asshole, too. Would you assume that any one who was concerned and comforted you and wanted you to get out of the abusive relationship was doing so only because they wanted to get some pussy? You have here made that assumption here, would you do that in real life too? > [@Tee](#): > > Try this. You have to choose one person out of the last two or three good dates that you’ve had. Can you explain what the ones you didn’t choose are lacking? Literally have never been in that position before. However, if you are in general asking about judging people, I just had to hire a couple of people, and had far more applicants than I had positions. Yes, I can articulate exactly why I hired one over the other. I even have evaluation sheets with charts and graphs. > [@dropzone](#): > > Then I guess we haven’t really met. I have filters when I’m online. Lousy ones, but they exist. Offline it’s a wonder I’m not punched more often. I’m the opposite. I have tons of filters that I’ve developed for dealing with people IRL. Here, however, I still have some filters, sure, but I don’t mind being a bit more argumentative than I try to be IRL. For instance, IRL, I have relatively recently had the epiphany that when someone says “I don’t understand why…”, what they don’t mean is “I want to understand why…”, what they mean is “I don’t want to understand why…” They actually just want to complain about it, and my attempting to explain why comes across as argumentative. And it is only while composing this post that I realize that I made a fundamental error of communication here in this thread. I was operating under the thread title meaning of “I **want** to know why are incels so angry.” > [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I don’t know if I can point to that exact sequence of events, but I post with the worry that it might happen. > > I hope we haven’t driven **k9befriender** out of the thread. If you do see this, but don’t want to post, I hope you’re well. I’m good. I do run a business, though, and it has a higher priority. I’m in the middle of doing a restructuring and a buildout, and I needed to get everyone’s employee evaluations done before I allowed myself to spend time here. I certainly do appreciate the kind words though, thank you. OTOH, I don’t know that I have much else to contribute to this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/593 "2018-05-08T21:32:02Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > The VT shooter wasn’t Incel. Neither was the Newtown shooter or the Oregon shooter. But they were all socially isolated angry young men. And the self-identified Incels who are killing up folks are NOT discriminating against men and women. That’s why (to me) it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to just fixate on the misogyny of the Incel movement. > [@dropzone](#): > > This. It’s not just that they hate women. They hate everyone. It’s true that incel terrorists aren’t killing exclusively women, not always even primarily women. But the reason they’re killing is because they’re angry **at and about women**. Specifically, because they believe that they’re not getting what they’re “owed” from women. The reason they’re also angry at some people besides women (i.e., the “Chads” and “normies” who aren’t “incel”) is ultimately **because** of women: namely, they think that women are unfairly favoring and rewarding those other guys. Yes, the “incel movement” is crucially and fundamentally about misogyny. Trying to downplay or dismiss the misogyny as just one facet of “they hate everyone” is being in denial about its essential nature. **monstro** , I’m not sure what “Vermont shooter” you mean, but the Oregon shooter left a lament about being a virgin and not having a girlfriend, complaining that “society likes to deny people like me these things”. The Lafayette shooter who massacred people in a showing of the Amy Schumer movie _Trainwreck_ in 2015 was an outspoken misogynist and anti-feminist. The reason for “fixating” on the hatred for women is that that’s what the “incel movement”, and a lot of other aspects of the so-called “manosphere”, is all about. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/594 "2018-05-08T21:38:59Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > And it is only while composing this post that I realize that I made a fundamental error of communication here in this thread. I was operating under the thread title meaning of “I want to know why are incels so angry.” I hope you and **Robot Arm** don’t have any regrets about participating in this thread. It is damn hard to talk about this stuff without the negative feelings bubbling to the surface. Since you have shared your epiphany, I’ll share mine: People often act a little funny once they find some success. They often will come up with a narrative that paints themselves as hardworking and deserving. They overlook all the luck they had or the external assistance they received getting to that lofty mountain top. And they forget that no one controls the feelings they experience when they do experience failure. YES, a person can control what they post on the internet. But the feelings of bitterness, sadness, disappointment, hopelessness, and anger are not reflections of moral character defects. You can’t shame a person out of them. A person doesn’t make themselves have them. And people really do deserve a safe space to air these feelings–a space that is free from the Judgy McJudgersons who think “sad sacks” should shrivel up and die already. No one has said those exact words in this thread, but the idea is definitely floating out there. I think if the “good” involuntarily celibates are expected to police the Incels, the “good” normies (for lack of a better word, sorry) should be expected to stomp on Internet Tough Guys who play the “pull your own bootstraps!” card whenever someone dispassionately discusses the frustrations of life. And not just relationship stuff, but all the stuff that wears down the ego. I hang out on subreddits where specific woes are discussed that don’t get mentioned anywhere else. 'Cuz if they were discussed out in the open, the torches would come out from the WHY AREN’T YOU HAPPY LIKE ME crowd? There’s hate everywhere nowadays. It just isn’t as intense or scary as what you find on your typical Incel board. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/595 "2018-05-08T22:08:18Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > It’s true that incel terrorists aren’t killing exclusively women, not always even primarily women. But the reason they’re killing is because they’re angry **at and about women**. Specifically, because they believe that they’re not getting what they’re “owed” from women. > The reason they’re also angry at some people besides women (i.e., the “Chads” and “normies” who aren’t “incel”) is ultimately **because** of women: namely, they think that women are unfairly favoring and rewarding those other guys. > > Yes, the “incel movement” is crucially and fundamentally about misogyny. Trying to downplay or dismiss the misogyny as just one facet of “they hate everyone” is being in denial about its essential nature. > > **monstro** , I’m not sure what “Vermont shooter” you mean, but the Oregon shooter left a lament about being a virgin and not having a girlfriend, complaining that “society likes to deny people like me these things”. The Lafayette shooter who massacred people in a showing of the Amy Schumer movie _Trainwreck_ in 2015 was an outspoken misogynist and anti-feminist. The reason for “fixating” on the hatred for women is that that’s what the “incel movement”, and a lot of other aspects of the so-called “manosphere”, is all about. [The Oregon shooter was also racist.](http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2017/09/umpqua_community_college_shoot_3.html) So was the [Parkland shooter](https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/16/us/exclusive-school-shooter-instagram-group/index.html). [So was Elliot Rodgers.](https://splinternews.com/elliot-rodger-left-behind-tons-of-sexist-racist-youtub-1793841790) So was the [New Mexico shooter](https://www.thedailybeast.com/new-mexico-school-shooter-had-secret-life-on-pro-trump-white-supremacy-sites). [So was the dickwad who murdered the woman at the Charlottesville rally.](http://wset.com/news/local/man-accused-of-driving-car-had-racist-rally-sign) Angry young men tend to have hate for specific groups–groups they ain’t a member of and whose members they feel are threat to their happiness and success. This of course would include women. Is there a specific reason why we should elevate their misogyny above their other shitty notions? Racism is a problem in our society, but I wouldn’t point to the recent crop of mass shooters as evidence of this. People have been complaining about internet hotbeds of racism for awhile now. You see Incels do the same racist shit-talking you see in mainstream forums. What this tells me is that haters gonna hate. People who lack status and who are feeling bad about it usually get their kicks out of bullying or dehumanizing others. I’m not sure it’s any more complicated than this, but I’m open to hearing other ideas. Oh yeah, VT = Virginia Tech = Seung-Hui Cho. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/596 "2018-05-08T22:09:12Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I see that as a bit harsh. There are some misogynists on this board. If you do not criticize and challenge them every time they make a post, does that mean that you are okay with misogyny? If I don’t **ever** criticize or challenge their misogyny, and if I’m comfortable hanging out in a forum where other people routinely don’t criticize or challenge it either, then yes, that strongly suggests I’m okay with misogyny. If misogyny is consistently challenged and criticized on a forum by the community in general whenever it appears, then of course not every member has to pounce on every single appearance to refute it separately. But if misogynistic ideas are typically **not** challenged or criticized by forum members, or if the community in general is hostile to occasional attempts to challenge or criticize it, then that does call into question the views of participants who are willing to put up with that. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > No, I am using it any time you suggest that there are two, and only two, options, when there are in fact, a nearly infinite number of options in a wide spectrum across several axies. What you seem to be missing is the fact that, IMO, one or both of the two categories I’m using in those cases **include** the “nearly infinite number of options in a wide spectrum across several axes”. Likewise, if I say that today is either Tuesday or not Tuesday, I’m not in any way “excluding” the various options of Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday or Sunday, because all of those are covered by one of the two options I named. To claim that I’m “excluding the middle” because I didn’t mention that it might be Monday, for instance, would be just plain wrong. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > > [@Kimstu](#): > > > > You still haven’t given us any evidence in support of your claim that the ONLY communities that will accept such a person are misogyny-friendly ones. > > That’s because that’s not the claim I am making. Well, it’s what you said. For example, back in post #395: > [@k9bfriender](#): > > I can certainly see how, when someone is hurting that badly, and has no community to give them support, how they may just join the only community that will accept them > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Same is going to be for most general purpose and specific forums. They don’t want to hear about some loser striking out on a date again. The forums that don’t beat on people because they post stories about rejection are going to contain more misogyny than those that do beat on people because they post stories about rejection. :dubious: Has it not occurred to you that the reason posters in misogyny-friendly forums don’t “beat on” people for posting stories about being rejected by women is because **they are using those stories to feed their misogynistic members’ confirmation bias about how shitty women are**? They don’t mind hearing complaints about being rejected by women precisely because that reinforces their cherished notions about women being dumb greedy cruel shallow selfish opportunistic cunts who are no good to men. Non-misogynistic men talking about their frustration with romantic failure are “accepted” by misogynistic communities in the same way that cruise ships dumping food are “accepted” by sharks. The sharks don’t care about the cruise ship in any way, they just want to feed on what it’s giving them. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/597 "2018-05-08T22:21:52Z")
I hang out r/news (I would say I do 90% of my redditing there and at r/politics). There are many racist posts in r/news. I do what I can to challenge those posts, but I work a full-time job. When I come home from a long day at work, I don’t want to be embroiled in arguments with hateful bigot trolls. I just want to be entertained and informed by the news of the day. So I agree with **k9bfriender** that simply posting in a forum populated by misogynists does not mean you endorse misogyny. If a forum became _dominated_ by misogynists, I would bail. But there are some boards that I participate/lurk in that have an Incel tinge without being full-blown Incel. I figure someone has to be a moderating voice. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/598 "2018-05-08T22:29:42Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > [The Oregon shooter was also racist.](http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2017/09/umpqua_community_college_shoot_3.html) So was the [Parkland shooter](https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/16/us/exclusive-school-shooter-instagram-group/index.html). [So was Elliot Rodgers.](https://splinternews.com/elliot-rodger-left-behind-tons-of-sexist-racist-youtub-1793841790) So was the [New Mexico shooter](https://www.thedailybeast.com/new-mexico-school-shooter-had-secret-life-on-pro-trump-white-supremacy-sites). [So was the dickwad who murdered the woman at the Charlottesville rally.](http://wset.com/news/local/man-accused-of-driving-car-had-racist-rally-sign) Yup, there are a lot of perpetrators of racist terrorism out there, and there is indeed a lot of overlap between racism, misogyny, and other bigotry in the “alt-right” climate that spawns a lot of them. > [@monstro](#): > > Angry young men tend to have hate for specific groups–groups they ain’t a member of and whose members they feel are threat to their happiness and success. This of course would include women. Is there a specific reason why we should elevate their misogyny above their other shitty notions? Well, we’re talking here about people who **themselves** have elevated their misogyny above their other shitty notions, by self-identifying first and foremost as “incel” or “men’s rights activist” or some such, rather than “patriot” or “race realist” or “nationalist” or some other non-gender-related form of bigotry. Yes, I think that when a large number of people are deliberately broadcasting their preference for a particular form of bigotry as their primary ideological identification, we’re entitled to take that seriously, rather than just dismissing it as merely one aspect of “they hate everybody”. > [@monstro](#): > > Racism is a problem in our society, but I wouldn’t point to the recent crop of mass shooters as evidence of this. I would definitely point to the mass shooters **who explicitly endorse racist ideology** as “evidence of this”. Especially the mass shooters who make racism their “banner issue”, such as the Charleston shooter. I’m certainly not claiming that misogynists, or racists, are single-issue haters or that getting rid of misogyny would make all problems go away. But I think it’s being willfully oblivious not to recognize misogyny as a primary driver in the acts of people who are deliberately promoting misogynistic ideas and self-identifying with misogynistic “movements”. > [@monstro](#): > > Oh yeah, VT = Virginia Tech = Seung-Hui Cho. Oh right, VA Tech not Vermont, duh. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/599 "2018-05-08T23:09:16Z")
**Kimstu** , I need empirical evidence before my mind can make the leap from “Angry guys who kill tend to be misogynistic” to “Misogyny makes angry guys kill.” As **dropzone** said, I think these killers are cray. Most crazy killers are fueled by a conspiracy theory of some type. But it’s the craziness that’s the real driver. Not the specific conspiracy theory. And no, personally, I don’t think mass shooters are emblematic or symptomatic of society’s racism. Race-biased policing is, along with hiring/housing discrimination, hate rallies, hate crimes, and citizens who think black people need to stop complaining about all of the above. But not lone crazed gunmen looking to end their lives in a blaze of glory. Were young guys going on shooting sprees in the 50s, 60s, and 70s, when the country was a giant shitpile of overt racism AND misogyny? I’m not thinking they were, but if you’ve got data or anedotes I’ll consider them. I don’t worry about being a victim of mass shooters because I’m a woman or because I’m black. I worry about them killing me because I’m a human being who simply exists. These guys hate everyone. They hate the entire social order. The misogyny and racism are just convenient ways of expressing that hate when you are a white (or white-passing) male. However, if these guys were being more discriminating with their violence, I would probably be more worried about the specifics of their hate. Not gonna lie about that. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/600 "2018-05-09T00:20:44Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I think you’re too focused on the specific examples I gave, like sports or religion. There are a thousand axes like that; city/country, winter/summer, morning/evening, cats/dogs, Coke/Pepsi. My main point was that it would be helpful to know, and not have to spend years guessing. I guess we’re not understanding each other very well. Thanks for tolerating my questions though. 🙂 [QUOTE=monstro] Kimstu, I need empirical evidence before my mind can make the leap from “Angry guys who kill tend to be misogynistic” to “Misogyny makes angry guys kill.” As dropzone said, I think these killers are cray. Most crazy killers are fueled by a conspiracy theory of some type. But it’s the craziness that’s the real driver. Not the specific conspiracy theory. [/quote] By now it may be acceptable to say that beliefs are motivating factors, without signs of mental illness, but it’s an evolving concept. It involves constant reinforcement and a support system of sorts for those beliefs. School shooters for example are not assumed to be mentally ill - they may be, they may not be, but the shooting itself is not evidence. What they do have are emotional beliefs or extreme overvalued beliefs that have taken over their sense of self. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269.md?page=31)