# "Why are incels so angry?" **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 28, 2018, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269 "2018-04-28T16:45:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 33
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/641 "2018-05-10T01:20:21Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I don’t feel like what I’m saying should be all that controversial or nebulous. But I’m kind of getting tired of saying it. So this will likely be my last post in this thread Completely agree with you. Attributing criminal tendencies to people different from you is discrimination. Weirdos are cool people, not automatic villains. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/642 "2018-05-10T01:38:33Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > I would not be shocked if there are women’s sites where men are nothing but villains upon whom all the world’s evils are laid. You do find places on the internet where unhappily single women congregate and talk shit about men and their superficial preferences. But to be honest? Most of the negativity is directed at pretty girls who can just waltz in a room and turn heads just by existing. It’s not raging hate. It’s more like sad bitterness. It’s not “I’m going to kill Stacey!” It’s more “I hate how no one ever notices me, but they always notice her. How can I possibly compete against _her_. And I really wish she would stop acting like her life is so hard and tragic. Anyone would kill to have her life. So she needs to shut the hell up!” If they were guys, maybe all of this would seem slightly misogynistic. But because these are girls (or at least I assume they are), they just come across as bitter and jelly. Not gonna lie. I get where they are coming from. Only beautiful women are ever allowed to be true victims. A few months ago I watched an incredible documentary about a young woman dealing with chronic fatigue syndrome. It really did a great job of showing how difficult life can be with the disease. But I strongly suspect the film would have never been made if she weren’t so [photogenic](http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/films/unrest/). Even though I believe this, I still came away from the film thinking, “If even pretty young woman can get CFS, there’s no way it’s a psychogenic disorder!” Ugly women are invisible, but when they are made visible, they are blamed for their problems. I know I would have had to fight the urge to blame her for being sick if she had been obese. So when these Forever Alone women kvetch about this particular societal unfairness, I don’t argue with them. Cuz they are 100% right. And I think they are entitled to feel bad about it and rant about it, even if it’s not productive behavior that will help them get a man. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/643 "2018-05-10T01:50:13Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > if she weren’t so [photogenic](http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/films/unrest/). I’m sorry, the second that picture popped up with the wires on her head, I couldn’t think of anything but [this](http://images.mentalfloss.com/sites/default/files/styles/mf_image_16x9/public/bridehed.jpg?itok=kb1cqMbp&resize=1100x619). Has nothing to do with her physical attractiveness. 😛 But you’re absolutely right. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/644 "2018-05-10T02:12:04Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Ugly women are invisible, but when they are made visible, they are blamed for their problems. I know I would have had to fight the urge to blame her for being sick if she had been obese. > > So when these Forever Alone women kvetch about this particular societal unfairness, I don’t argue with them. Cuz they are 100% right. And I think they are entitled to feel bad about it and rant about it […] Absolutely, and lonely men are equally entitled to kvetch about the societal unfairnesses that make life harder for them too. As I said in an earlier post, there’s a big difference between blaming the bad choices that society traditionally imposes on us, and blaming women or men as people. We are all definitely allowed to blame society for the bad choices of “toxic masculinity” and “feminine mystique” that pressure us to conform to rigid gender roles where women are supposed to be dependent and obliging and men are supposed to be dominant and powerful. It sucks that so many men feel it would be humiliating for them to be dating a woman who’s not “hot” and young. And it also sucks that so many women feel it would be humiliating for them to be dating a man who’s shorter than they are, or bald, or who doesn’t make more money than they do. It sucks that men expect to get away with catcalling and harassing women, and it sucks that women expect to get away with requiring men to pay for their drinks and dinners and dates. It sucks that women are shamed for being ugly or sexually active, and it sucks that men are shamed for being virgins or low-income. It sucks that girls are pressured to like glittery pink stuff and it sucks that boys are pressured not to. All of us are getting seriously screwed in one way or another by the various injustices built into our societal inheritance from ancient patriarchal systems, and we’re all justified in complaining about it. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/645 "2018-05-10T02:21:24Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I am skeptical that sex is more indiscriminate now. Dating/hook-up apps don’t level the playing field. [They make the “game” more challenging](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/love-sex/tinder-too-much-single-people-dating-burnout-lifestyle-love-relationship-messaging-apps-a7670656.html). > > If I were a socially awkward guy looking for love, I would prefer a time period where I could make my first impression in “real life” versus a dating app. If my face isn’t that cute, I can always wear some nice jeans to accentuate my nice butt. I can try to compensate for my awkward conversational skills by using my body language to show I am great listener (and I’d make sure to smile my most charming smile). If there’s a lull in the conversation, I can make things less awkward by selecting a good song on the jukebox (and in doing so show I have good taste). When there’s another lull in the conversation, I can point out something funny in the environment and show off my great sense of humor. > > You lose all of this when first contact is made through texting. You lose the ability to assess the “whole body”, including movement. You lose the body language. Spontaneity is harder. Miscommunication is rampant. Spelling and grammar issues stand out more, as does the under- or overreliance on textspeak. And it’s harder to have a bond over shared experiences–like a magical song playing on the juke box or laughing at something the waitress said. The girl is not staring into Shy Awkward Guy’s eyes as he stammers out a sweet story about his childhood dog Sammy. She’s judging a bunch of words scrolling underneath a thumbnail image of his face, all while she’s getting texts from other guys who have better-looking faces, who have much better text flirt games. If she does go out with Shy Awkward Guy and it’s just an OK date, is she really going to feel like saying “yes” to a second date knowing she’s got a whole bunch of unanswered messages from other guys in her inbox? I don’t think I would if I were a girl in that situation. > > The internet has made it so that people don’t have to take on a lot of risk. Like, it has been a long time since I’ve walked into a restaurant without first studying the online menu and the Yelp reviews. If the food in the reviewer photos doesn’t look good and there aren’t any positive reviews and the menu doesn’t have any dishes I’m familiar with, I swiping left cuz ain’t nobody got time for unsatisfying food. The internet has intensified competition in all sectors. I don’t know why dating would be exempt from this. I don’t know if I agree with that. Dating sites and online communication just favor different skills than meeting someone in person. You don’t have the body language and spontaneity, but you do get to spend some more time on crafting a first impression and displaying good writing skills. I’ve gotten compliments on my writing in a few places. I haven’t had much luck with online sites, but better than I’ve had in person. I also notice that you describe the process in terms of a man trying to make a favorable impression on a woman. (Well, and that is what the whole thread is about.) But even in the 21st century that is still the default; men actively pursuing (for lack of a better word) and women fielding offers and waiting to be impressed. And I don’t mean to suggest you’re wrong for describing it that way. It’s just so ingrained to look at it that way that it takes a conscious effort to even notice we’re doing it. And online dating, whatever drawbacks it might have, requires women to put up profiles, too. They can indicate availability, and preferences, even if they’re rarely the first to express interest. That seems to be a good thing in terms of giving them more options[sup]\*[/sup] and making them take a more active role in the process. All in all, I think online dating is the modern equivalent of standing next to the keg. - I’ve read that more options don’t always make us happier, which is kind of a bummer. > [@monstro](#): > > It was like one moment I felt totally numb. A complete robot. Ouch. 😉 > [@Tee](#): > > Some luck, some basic effort (look nice, stand by the keg),… I didn’t even go to those sorts of parties when I was in college. I wouldn’t know where to find one, now. > [@](#): > > …some willingness to be mildly bullied by friends and family to put themselves out there, go to that party, meet their sister, take that trip, etc. It does work for people, and mind you it’s for those with no game and no expectations. They’re convinced everything is a futile endeavor until one day it’s not. That’s what happens. Until one day it’s not, or one day you just can’t drag yourself out of bed to keep trying. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/646 "2018-05-10T02:52:04Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > There’s nothing implausible about a boy who is inordinately jealous of anyone who has something he doesn’t have, especially if that person is “lessor” based on things like race, gender, and class. There’s nothing implausible about a boy who sees girls as alien things and treats them accordingly either. Right. So…are you saying we should just shun him until he can fix himself out of these thought patterns? What are you saying? Cuz all I’m saying is that shunning him isn’t necessarily going to keep him from going from a bad guy into a worse guy. All I’m saying is that it MIGHT be good to step in at some point and keep him engaged enough with the real world so that his beliefs don’t become even weirder (or more toxic or whatever other word you want to use). > [@](#): > > I’m talking about assholes who believes assholelish things about people, hence their assholelishness, You can call this grandma’s apple pie if you want or you can call it toxic ideology, but what we shouldn’t be calling it is _just_ weirdness or > creepiness or some other condition that on the whole is harmless. OK, maybe there are kids that come into the world believing that girls are aliens who must be killed, and there’s nothing we could to do to dissuade of them that notion. I’ll concede anything is possible. BUT I AIN’T TALKING ABOUT THOSE KIDS. I’m talking about the kids who aren’t that messed up. Like the kid who throws sand in another kid’s face because he’s a derp who doesn’t know that sand can hurt. Letting that kid become so marginalized by his peers that he can only find comfort on the internet IS NOT A GOOD THING. I’m saying we should stop that from happening somehow. I’m not here writing prescriptions for each and every scenario you can dream up. I’m throwing out IDEAS for what we COULD do that MIGHT work on SOME kids. Shit. > [@](#): > > That’s an oversimplification that should actually annoy anyone who considers themselves a bit on the weird side. A lot of weird people are treated like CREEPS!! (dangerous people) when they are merely creeps (scary-looking people who aren’t dangerous). Do you deny this? And I’m not even talking about self-identified weirdos. I’m talking about people others have deemed as weirdos. > [@](#): > > And some weirdos have tons of friends, while others are social pariahs. We could go down this path all day but it’s circular one, right? It’s already evident the issue is too complex to reduce to these types of arguments. Perhaps you can stop arguing with me, then. Cuz nothing I have said should be that disagreeable to you. > [@](#): > > Of course I remember. If I had to guess, these jerks weren’t mentally disordered on top of being assholes! So they could modulate their behavior so as not to incur major social costs. A asshole who is not adept at this because of mental issues simply can not perform this juggling act. Or alternatively, he might be an asshole in one context but be totally fine in another (when his medicine is working). Or he might have made a mistake (throwing sand in a kid’s face), but no one will ever let him live it down so he’s always going to be the “crazy asshole who throws sand in people’s faces”. As you said, we could go back and forth with this kind of speculation. But where does it get us, to talk about individual hypothetical cases? If you had an asshole kid on your hands AND you suspected he was mentally ill, would you try to optimize his chances for making friends? Or would you drug him up, force him to go to therapy (that he hates), and let him stay in his bedroom all day long, doing god knows what on the internet? Because I wouldn’t. I would try to treat the mental illness as effectively as possible, and I would also do what I could to keep him from being lonely and socially disgruntled. I can’t think of any instance where it would be prudent to not care about both of these things simultaneously. > [@](#): > > Elliot Rodger’s history showed him to be someone who has long been obsessed with status and envy. He might not have been a bully, but you don’t have to bully anyone to be a jerk, really. “They weren’t socializing enough to display asshole behavior” is a conclusion you’re drawing, but relationships require empathy as well as give and take. I’m drawing that conclusion based on how he was described by the people who knew him. No one described him as a “jerk”. If you can find reports of that, I’d love to see that. But one thing I’m not going to do is assume he was a jerk. > [@](#): > > Compromise. Respect. A sense of humor. None of us know him, we aren’t his therapist, so how can we suppose that things like basic caring weren’t difficult for him? So it sounds like you are throwing out there the possibility that he was a sociopath. OK, let’s say that’s what he was. What is the point you’re trying to make? Are you saying that there was nothing we could have done to keep him from going on a killer spree, so we shouldn’t even entertain the idea that maybe an intervention could have stopped him? Because I’m only positing that MAYBE he could have been stopped if someone had intervened and yanked him out of that internet bubble he lived in. Maybe I’m wrong, and I’m okay with that. But I think it MIGHT be worth trying for guys who look like Elliot Rodgers. I’m not saying anything more definitive than that. > [@](#): > > Adam Lanza had a lot of many mental issues going on and had a hard time in social settings because of it. If there had been a way to treat his underlying mental health issues, there’s no reason to think social isolation (and his eventually obsession with mass murder) would have still be factors. Dude should’ve been in a hospital, not living at home. OK, now I’m confused. Are you under the belief that all this time I haven’t been arguing that mental illness is a basic driver? Because I’ve repeatedly said I think this is the case. If Adam Lanza hadn’t been neurological impaired and mentally ill, I don’t believe we would be talking about him right now. Are you thinking that all this time I’ve been saying social isolation is the ONLY factor, rather than one among multiple? Cuz that’s not what I’ve been saying at all. If he had been put in a hospital, at least he wouldn’t have been socially isolated. He wouldn’t have only had the internet and guns to keep him company. He would have been in the midst of other patients–maybe people he could have connected with. So I agree with you that he should have been in the hospital instead of living at home. But I don’t understand why you seem to be suggesting I WOULDN’T be in favor of this. > [@](#): > > My point is real simple. > > - There is no need to \*suppose \* things about Rodger, Lanza, or any other killers just to support your larger point about creating inclusive spaces for socially awkward male youth. I am not “supposing” things, and I’m pissed that you think making inferences based on the available data is “supposing”, but assuming the very worst is perfectly okay. > [@](#): > > - I agree that we can do better with how we treat single men. I agree that virgin shaming is a problem. I agree that social isolation is a problem. OK, cool. > [@](#): > > - I disagree we can make sweeping generalizations about all these incel killer dudes as if we are certain they are simply on one extreme of the unhappy single male continuum. It’s possible that harmless “weirdness” is more likely in the latter; other shit is more likely in the former. Just because I think we might be able to stop future Elliot Rodgers by coming up with intervention strategies for guys who have a similar profile doesn’t mean I’m making sweeping generalizations about Incel killers. And I didn’t say anything about “harmless” weirdness. A person can be a big ole weirdo and do harmful things (intentionally or no). But that doesn’t mean he has a toxic ideology. > [@](#): > > I don’t feel like what I’m saying should be all that controversial or nebulous. Me neither! I guess my mistake is thinking we can make some inferences about Elliot Rodgers and Adam Lanza based on the information that is available about them? You don’t seem to like me doing that. OK, fair enough. But I’m not going to assume the very worse about them just because we don’t have enough information to rule out this possibility. Sorry. If we always assumed the very worse about people, we wouldn’t bother doing anything to help them. I’m trying not to be the kind of person who is okay with that. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/647 "2018-05-10T03:03:53Z")
> [@Tee](#): > > some willingness to be mildly bullied by friends and family If you’re going to try to bully me (no matter how “mild”) you’re no longer my friend. and if you’re a family member, I’ll cut of any and all contact with your ass. good lord, what horrible advice you give. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/648 "2018-05-10T03:09:35Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I don’t know if I agree with that. Dating sites and online communication just favor different skills than meeting someone in person. You don’t have the body language and spontaneity, but you do get to spend some more time on crafting a first impression and displaying good writing skills. I’ve gotten compliments on my writing in a few places. I haven’t had much luck with online sites, but better than I’ve had in person. And I suppose that’s what I’m saying. Dating apps favor guys who are great with the verbal medium. It doesn’t favor guys who have great body language or have a good sense of physical humor, but maybe don’t come across well over prolonged texting, in which you’re trying to woo someone whose attention is switching between your texts, some other guy’s texts, Netflex binging, and redditing. Some people will do well with this. But is everyone advantaged? No, I don’t think so. > [@](#): > > All in all, I think online dating is the modern equivalent of standing next to the keg. So are you getting more dates now they you were before dating apps? I’m trying to square this statement with your posts about how hard it has been to find someone. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/649 "2018-05-10T03:30:01Z")
Texting is also fraught with the same danger as any other writing. The inherent ability of humans to read emotions and other things into the message that were not intended by the person writing it. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/650 "2018-05-10T03:31:37Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > So are you getting more dates now they you were before dating apps? Well, yes, but it’s very nearly a case of saying that “few” is more than “none”. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/651 "2018-05-10T03:47:55Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Texting is also fraught with the same danger as any other writing. > > The inherent ability of humans to read emotions and other things into the message that were not intended by the person writing it. It’s real easy to look at someone’s more ambiguous texts and find them pathetic or creepy under a certain light. I think people are more forgiving of weirdness in oral communication because those words aren’t being recorded. The cringy stuff can disappear forever. But when your friends are talking about their dating (mis)adventures, it is way too tempting to whip out your phone and show them the weird thing some guy has texted you. It may not even be THAT weird, but it just seems that way because it’s in written form and oh my goodness what was he thinking?! ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/652 "2018-05-10T04:01:18Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Well, yes, but it’s very nearly a case of saying that “few” is more than “none”. I hope you find someone, **Robot Arm**. I’ll never stop rooting for you. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/653 "2018-05-10T04:07:10Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > It’s real easy to look at someone’s more ambiguous texts and find them pathetic or creepy under a certain light. I think people are more forgiving of weirdness in oral communication because those words aren’t being recorded. The cringy stuff can disappear forever. But when your friends are talking about their dating (mis)adventures, it is way too tempting to whip out your phone and show them the weird thing some guy has texted you. It may not even be THAT weird, but it just seems that way because it’s in written form and oh my goodness what was he thinking?! It’s also a matter of tone, attitude, body language and so forth. I’ve given presentations and had them go very well and get very good feedback on them, yet have people who read the same presentation document without the speech coming back to me complaining about ‘tone’ or specific words that NO ONE had an issue with when those words were on screen in front of them and I was speaking them. Early in my career I would apologize and let the person trample on me. As I got more experience, I would just blow them off. Because there’s always some asshole who wants POWER by criticizing every detail and demanding you appease them. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/654 "2018-05-10T04:16:38Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I hope you find someone, **Robot Arm**. I’ll never stop rooting for you. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/655 "2018-05-10T05:34:29Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Then there’s the common interactions with rude or stupid people that most people in a better place blow off and don’t remember, but people in a state of depression absolutely do and are injured by. > > I’m just an average middle aged white guy, but I’d say that at least once or thrice a year someone, usually a woman, will make some stupid comment about how I look creepy or I make them nervous just by going about my business. Usually I blow it off, but if I’m suffering a bout of anxiety or depression (yesterday was a very bad day), then that sort of stuff hits harder, gets really offensive and I react. > > Hell, 30 years ago I rode up the elevator in our company parking ramp, my employee badge clearly visible on my shirt and yet some fucking idiot woman cowered in the back of the elevator staring at me with her mace in her hand. I was young and very angry about this and if she had maced me for no reason but her fear, I’d have likely beaten her within an inch of her life I hope she’d have gotten her money back from whoever sold her the weak-ass Mace, then… ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/656 "2018-05-10T10:01:04Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Right. So…are you saying we should just shun him until he can fix himself out of these thought patterns? What are you saying? (This why I’ve grown tired of posting in this thread…it seems like I can’t express a viewpoint without me then having to defend something that doesn’t follow from anything I wrote. Like, where is this question coming from?) No, I’m not saying that. See this earlier post from mine. > [@](#): > > If the lack of social connections is mostly the result of other factors, then what good does it do for us to focus on the social angle? I don’t want to come across as dismissive to this particular concern-- in general I think social isolation is a problem–but since it’s unrealistic to expect people to stop freely associating and disassociating with people who behave in antisocial ways, then I don’t know what the solution is except to tackle causes of antisocial behavior. **That means addressing problematic beliefs and mental health conditions.** ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/657 "2018-05-10T10:05:42Z")
**you with the face** , I also think mental health conditions need to be addressed. I just also think the social stuff is important too. I’m sorry that you’ve somehow missed this in my posts. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/658 "2018-05-10T10:17:18Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > **you with the face** , I also think mental health conditions need to be addressed. I just also think the social stuff is important too. I’m sorry that you’ve somehow missed this in my posts. I haven’t missed that because I keep saying the social isolation is a problem too. I’m simply choosing to you engage on the points where I do disagree with your conclusions a bit. My opinions seem to be pissing you off for some reason despite the care I’m putting into expressing them. Since that is not my intent, I’m outie. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/659 "2018-05-10T10:42:35Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I haven’t missed that because I keep saying the social isolation is a problem too. I’m simply choosing to you engage on the points where I do disagree with your conclusions a bit. > > My opinions seem to be pissing you off for some reason despite the care I’m putting into expressing them. Since that is not my intent, I’m outie. It’s pissing me off because you’re arguing with me on what seem like extremely trivial points. You asked a very good question about whether these guys’ social isolation could be driven by mental illness (which you cryptically called “toxic ideology” but whatever) or whether their mental illness is the result of social isolation, and I offered a hypothesis about positive feedback loops and then threw out some speculation about our favorite punching bags Elliot Rodger and Adam Lanza. And then you come back accusing me of forgetting past crimes committed against me by assholes on the playground thirty years ago. Did you really have to be that personal with your response, when I was agreeing with you that your question was a good one that needs to be researched? Of course I would be pissed off by that. I’m only human. It was a weirdly personal and argumentative way of making a point that didn’t need to be made. I’m not stupid enough to think there’s no possibility that Elliot Rodgers was a raging asshole his whole life. It just doesn’t matter to the point I was making. However, I wasn’t pissed until you went there with the stroll down memory lane. Up to that point, I was fine with what you said. I ain’t got no hard feelings, and I really don’t want you to be “outie”. But you haven’t been totally innocent in the miscommunication between us, is all I’m saying. It would be nice if you’d own up to that, but I’m fine if you just want to be outie. This thread is probably about to die anyway. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/660 "2018-05-10T10:59:40Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Why do you doubt it without knowing anything about him? For me to doubt something like this, I would need to believe there are no little boys out there doing and saying cruel things to others that consistent with “toxic ideological” thinking. I can’t do that. > > Don’t you remember in kindergarden, some boy threw sand in your face and it got in your eyes and everything? WTF was _that_? I will never forget that scene on the playground. You were bawling and he just stood there looking at you. That boy could’ve been an incel in the making. We don’t know, do we? That wasn’t weirdness. That was a compulsion do harm. > > Elliot Rodger could’ve always had some weird superiority/inferiority complex going on, where he looked down on anyone that was below his “level” (like black people) while simultaneously feeling his opportunities were limited due to his race and height. And for all we know, Adam Lanza was the kid who kicked down other kid’s sand castles and knocked ice cream cones out of their hands just to see them cry. Of course, I have zero idea if either one of them was like this. But if they were? Well, then hell yeah they ain’t going to have friends. It would be more than just weirdness. It’s antisociality that needs treatment. > > We need to be sympathetic without _imagining_ sympathetic things, yo! n.b. Lanza had serious mental illnesses identified when he was a child, long before his rampage. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269.md?page=32) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269.md?page=34)