# "Why are incels so angry?" **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 28, 2018, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269 "2018-04-28T16:45:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2018, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/101 "2018-04-29T19:54:38Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > Internet is enabling the Travis Bickles of the world to think they’re joining Project Mayhem so they can become Tyler Durden. If only they could just stay in the phase where they beat the shit out of each other all the time, everyone would be happy. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2018, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/102 "2018-04-29T20:02:14Z")
If a person is getting ‘virgin shaming’ and are over 12 years old I would like to suggest that you try to make a new group of friends that are commonly referred to as adults. That this is worth discussion on the SDMB is nuts. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2018, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/103 "2018-04-29T20:04:00Z")
> [@P-man](#): > > I don’t get the sense of entitlement that the “incels” have. If a significant number of women say they are not uncommon, I have no reason to disbelieve. But is there a significant minority who are prone to violence? The “entitled man” is something every woman encounters and has to deal with. They are a minority, but they are a persistent minority. There’s the sort of man who will relentlessly pursue a woman and will NOT take “no” for an answer. Some of them will back off if you lie and say you have a boyfriend. For some, that’s not sufficient ownership of a woman by a man and will pursue you unless you have a husband (which is why women have sometimes gone to the extreme of wearing a false wedding ring) and are thus “property” of some man. And then there are the ones that will be deterred by _nothing_ - they will happily take another man’s property if they can, and that “property” includes the man’s woman (because to that sort a woman is either owned or fair game - women have no right to be their own people). THAT sort may well become violent. Some of the incel links in this thread have the incels’ talking about raping women so their boyfriends and husbands will never see them the same again, throwing acid to ruin a woman’s beauty, and so forth - basically, saying they’re going to break some other man’s toys/property/chattel. No, they don’t think women are human. And I don’t think they understand that there are men who will love their women just as much after a rape as before. Because these angry young men wouldn’t hesitate to abandon someone who isn’t pretty enough by their standards they don’t understand that victims aren’t automatically abandoned by their family and friends out here in the real and at least somewhat sane world. So yes, the violent minority exist. Do they exist in significant numbers? Define significant and then I can answer you. But since just one of these nutjobs can harm dozens of people, perhaps hundred over a lifetime, it doesn’t take a lot of them in sheer numbers to cause a serious problem. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2018, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/104 "2018-04-29T20:14:07Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > If a person is getting ‘virgin shaming’ and are over 12 years old I would like to suggest that you try to make a new group of friends that are commonly referred to as adults. > > **That this is worth discussion on the SDMB is nuts**. Are you new here? There is a 7 page thread currently in CS on _ordering a sandwich at Subway_, fer Og’s sake! ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2018, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/105 "2018-04-29T20:14:14Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > If a person is getting ‘virgin shaming’ and are over 12 years old I would like to suggest that you try to make a new group of friends that are commonly referred to as adults. > > That this is worth discussion on the SDMB is nuts. So, quit your job because your co-workers can’t act like adults? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2018, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/106 "2018-04-29T20:16:01Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Are you new here? There is a 7 page thread currently in CS on _ordering a sandwich at Subway_, fer Og’s sake! Oooh, I missed that. Gotta go check it out! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_King_of_Soup)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2018, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/107 "2018-04-29T20:21:51Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > …Women have never held to looks the way that men have. But it’s easier to blame the opposite sex for being superficial and petty than it is to look inward. You are absolutely correct. But the symmetry of these two sentences made me smile. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2018, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/108 "2018-04-29T20:23:51Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > So, quit your job because your co-workers can’t act like adults? Sure. I wouldn’t work for them. Would you? Or simply ignore the assholes (that they clearly are) until you can find a place with you know, adults. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2018, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/109 "2018-04-29T20:28:52Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Sure. I wouldn’t work for them. Would you? I have, as the alternative was poverty and homelessness. > [@](#): > > Or simply ignore the assholes (that they clearly are) until you can find a place with you know, adults. I’m about 40, and I have had 27 jobs. The only job that I have had that didn’t have at least one asshole who would call out and mock the socially awkwards is the one I have now, where I’m the owner and the boss. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2018, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/110 "2018-04-29T20:36:03Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Being called an asshole because you are a bit shy, or lack self confidence, or because you are not so physically attractive helps to push you away from mainstream thought, and puts you on the path towards radicalization. Some people get called assholes because they’re assholes. If one person calls you an asshole, you can probably ignore it. But if a dozen people call you an asshole then you should stop and consider the possibility that they’re right. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/111 "2018-04-29T20:37:31Z")
A phrase I’ve used in other threads: \* Explanation is not justification.\* It seems that many people refuse to take anything other than “because they are evil pieces of shit, and anything else is defending and excusing it” when anyone tries to figure out the wherefores of some criminal behavior, whether they get it right or wrong. But we are humans and many of us want to know what were the stages of the meltdown. Meanwhile, what I dunno if I’m puzzled or annoyed or amused by is the creation of this neologism, “incel”. Seems to me to describe this class of males who among the many results of their many personal defects are failing at mating, and somehow center around _that_ one consequence as the core major grievance that excuses their acting out against others. And yes, I suppose once upon a time before the networks, they would have just been individual bullies/wifebeaters/psychos with the ocassional old-school serial killer, and would not know that there was this label they could apply to themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2018, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/112 "2018-04-29T20:43:55Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I don’t think there should be any mystery why they are angry. Just like there’s no mystery why the Forever Alone people are sad. Virgin-shaming is a thing (along with parental basement dweller-shaming), and so is the notion that relationships are the best indicator of self-worth. We never see images of happy loners doing their own thing. No, happiness always seems to be the domain of the guy/girl who has a significant other and all the other conventional trappings of success. It’s nice to think that everyone should be evolved enough to ignore these messages and just be happy with their lot in life. But if you were consoling one of these people, who would you point to as a role model for him to follow? All the positive role models out there are conventionally cool, good-looking people who are in relationships. The only role models who are relatable to people at the bottom of the social hierarchy are bad dudes who mow down people on the street. I agree, except I think the loneliness of being Forever Alone goes beyond just low self-worth. Being alone means going without the pleasant, even joyful interactions with someone you deeply care about. I don’t define myself by my lack of relationships, or feel worthless (or worth less) because of it, but taking a book instead of a date when I go out to dinner gets real old after a while. > [@monstro](#): > > I didn’t find the other stuff you said to be that disagreeable, but this is patently wrong. Virgin shaming is a real thing. Just because you have never experienced it doesn’t mean it isn’t a thing. It was a thing when I was a 20-something (I’m a 40-something now). And it is a hugely real thing for in the hate-filled internet content world that 20-somethings today face. > > I was “virgin shamed” out of the blue a year ago. I was chitchatting with a group of coworkers and one of them started playfully teasing me about my socks. This guy (who I only knew as New Guy, not even knowing his name or what unit he worked in) decides he wants to be a part of the conversation and, completely apropos of nothing, asks if I’ve ever been with a guy. \* I don’t even know this motherfucker’s name.\* The silence that followed was deafening, but once it passed we pretended not to have heard him. I never talk about my sexuality in the workplace. I try my hardest to socialize like everyone else and just blend in. No one knows anything about me, _but especially that guy._ But I was still a target for some reason. (Shortly afterwards, someone registered a formal complaint about him for some other reason and he was demoted. I think it’s just a matter of time before he’s fired. I’m keeping my fingers crossed.) > > Society “shames” all kinds of social deviants. Hell, society shames people even when they represent a sizable portion of the population (fat people and adults who live with their parents being two such groups). So tell me why would adult virgins be spared? What is it about adult virgins that make them immune to the hate of the world? > > I have been innocently asked if I have ever been in a relationship. Usually I get these questions from people who want to befriend me and probably want to know which direction I swing. Often when I volunteer the truth, I get a negative response in return. Usually expressions of pity. If I’m real unlucky, that person will come back later with a joke at my expense. Should I hang my head in shame for not having the “good manners” to keep my mouth shut? Cuz check this: I would prefer NOT to lie or to play coy all the time. I would prefer to talk about myself as unapologetically as anyone else. I don’t always want to be the enigmatic eccentric. But it seems to me you’re saying that I should not be honest, because if I am, I deserve whatever shit is flung my way. That is nonsense. That is bullshit. As long as people like me keep our lives secret for the sake of your “good manners”, the more stigmatized and marginalized and lonely the unhappily single will feel about their lot in life. And the happily attached will continue to think that only basement-dwelling losers have no experience with romantic relationships. Very well put. > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I agree with **monstro** and others that there is a stigma attached to adult virgins. A [picture](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1723121/mediaviewer/rm1869129472) is worth a thousand words. (For those who’d rather not click, it’s the poster for a movie that came out a few years ago, “We’re the Millers”.) > [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](#): > > Your feelings about that encounter belong to you and are not up for debate. That question was rude, tone-deaf, and boundary-violating, and it did reference virginity, so I accept that in context it was an example of virgin-shaming, and I’m sorry you had to experience it. But I’m glad it happened a year ago: most LGBTQ people of my acquaintance have to go back only a few hours at most to find their last encounter with the demonization or disparagement of their particular brand of otherness; my ex, who was overweight, never made it through a week. I, being merely bald, can go a couple of months between incidents of what I might call “bald-shaming.” I also find it hopeful that society, as represented in your workplace, apparently does _not_ encourage virgin-shaming, not out of deference to you, but just as a matter of course. That may be true, but LGBTQ people also have a lot more positive messages; things like the “it gets better” project, and pride parades. I know there is still very real discrimination and hateful messages directed at that community, and I hope the positive messages help to counteract it to some degree. I don’t see the same for virgins. No one’s telling us it gets better. Where’s the positive messaging, where are the role models? You have to go back 2,000 years to find someone lauded for virginity, and I’m not religious. Even if I was, the Christian message seems to be that virginity is something to be suffered through only until you find the straight, monogamous, married relationship you’re really supposed to. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2018, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/113 "2018-04-29T20:46:01Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Some people get called assholes because they’re assholes. If one person calls you an asshole, you can probably ignore it. But if a dozen people call you an asshole then you should stop and consider the possibility that they’re right. But, when the consensus is that the people who cannot attract a sexual partner cannot do so because they are assholes, and one cannot attract a sexual partner, what inference is one to take from that? Same as when people call you a loser, or whatever other insults have been thrown, in just this thread, towards those who are not as capable of attracting mates. Your statement is an excellent example of “virgin shaming”, and that is one of the things that is part of what puts people in a position to be radicalized. Now, if you are talking about some specific individuals, then sure. They may very well have been assholes right from the start. But you are talking about “these guys”, not individuals. What are “these guys”, but the losers who have some reason that they are less successful in their romantic lives? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2018, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/114 "2018-04-29T21:02:15Z")
> [@Jacquernagy](#): > > Also, while there will always be a few guys who slip through the cracks or who were able to detachedly complete the military training/service without absorbing any of the camaraderie, I’d think going through that experience would _help_ a guy develop some of the confidence that could help him get laid, or if not, at least the determination to _work_ on improving himself so that he can. Also, a trip through basic and a couple years of service generally instills an acceptable baseline of personal hygiene and physical fitness. They may not smell like roses or have muscles like Schwarzenegger, but post-military guys have at least that baseline going for them. Does it guarantee they get laid? Nope. But it’s a couple more items stacked in their favor. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2018, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/115 "2018-04-29T21:03:37Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Also, a trip through basic and a couple years of service generally instills an acceptable baseline of personal hygiene and physical fitness. They may not smell like roses or have muscles like Schwarzenegger, but post-military guys have at least that baseline going for them. > > Does it guarantee they get laid? Nope. But it’s a couple more items stacked in their favor. They also tend to have a bunch of money when they get out. ---
**Author:** ![Delicious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@Delicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Delicious)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2018, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/116 "2018-04-29T21:06:10Z")
> [@Jacquernagy](#): > > Yes, in my opinion. In earlier times, these guys would have just wallowed in alcohol and (if they could afford it) drugs and prostitutes, until they either drank themselves to death, committed suicide, or in rare cases, acted out. Or they might have joined (or started) cults. Now they have forums and an echo chamber. We need to get word to these groups that the old methods are still very much available. Maybe not cults so much. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2018, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/117 "2018-04-29T21:10:41Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > But, when the consensus is that the people who cannot attract a sexual partner cannot do so because they are assholes, and one cannot attract a sexual partner, what inference is one to take from that? You keep insisting on arguing a point that nobody else is making. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2018, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/118 "2018-04-29T21:15:33Z")
> [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](#): > > Hi **monstro**. I enjoy and often profit from reading your posts, and here’s another one. I was aiming for disagreement, not disagreeable. Let’s see if we can achieve a better understanding. > > I concede that there is such a thing as virgin-shaming. When people are uptight and unpleasant about it, someone may mutter “S/he needs to get laid.” When an acquaintance adopts some unfashionable accessory or hairstyle, someone may think it funny to say “congratulations on your vow of celibacy.” It is not an excuse to say that the target of such remarks is actually the bad behavior or sartorial choice–we wouldn’t give a pass to someone who said “That outfit is _tres_ Gay” as a disparagement. Self-described “incels” probably would, though, and that’s a small part of the problem I have with using virgin-shaming as an explanation for them: they have no problem demonizing others. Appearance-shaming (in all it’s forms) is as evil as virgin-shaming, surely: yet these “incels” gleefully indulge in it while describing the women who are not good enough for them. The hate-filled internet world “incels” inhabit was created by the “incels” themselves in order to express their hatred and contempt for women. If there were some social contract that promised them anything, they’ve already breached it and would be entitled to nothing. As I said upthread, I don’t think most Incels are born that way. I think they are created. They are created in response to both perceived and real slights. Maybe we Forever Aloners need to just suck it up and not talk about all slights since the normies will just deny they exist anyway. But the normies can’t then be surprised when Incels explode with rage. Rage is what happens when people are told to STFU one too many times. > [@](#): > > Please note that I’m not saying that your painful experiences are invalid or anything other than deplorable. I am saying that virgin-shaming does not even belong in the conversation when it comes to “incels’” misogyny and murder. I think understanding the stigma of virginity (not just in terms of sex, but in terms of meaningful relationship) is essential to understanding where the anger comes from, though. That’s what the OP was asking about. The misogyny and murder may very well be separate things, but the virgin-shaming (as well as the basement-dwelling, Mc-Job shaming) is what pushes people into the clutches of the misogynist and murdering mindset. And it isn’t just the _shaming_ shaming–the stuff you can tell is shaming from a million miles away. It’s all the internet “tough love” that’s waiting for you if you deign to talk about your lack of success, dished out by people who don’t know a single thing about you but still think they have you figured out. That’s often shaming too, but dressed up as advice. The internet is a cold harsh place to those who find themselves in the “loser” category. So it is no wonder (to me) that so-called losers wind up in the very worst corners, listening to the very worse voices. It seems like there aren’t a lot a whole lot of people who can just listen without judgment, without throwing out platitudes, without handing out tired advice. Even when I try to be this kind of person, I probably fail at it because it is so tempting to find reasons to blame someone for their problems. I found the non-judgmental listener in therapy, but many people can’t afford therapy. They turn to family, friends, and internet strangers. > [@](#): > > Your feelings about that encounter belong to you and are not up for debate. That question was rude, tone-deaf, and boundary-violating, and it did reference virginity, so I accept that in context it was an example of virgin-shaming, and I’m sorry you had to experience it. But I’m glad it happened a year ago: most LGBTQ people of my acquaintance have to go back only a few hours at most to find their last encounter with the demonization or disparagement of their particular brand of otherness; my ex, who was overweight, never made it through a week. I, being merely bald, can go a couple of months between incidents of what I might call “bald-shaming.” I also find it hopeful that society, as represented in your workplace, apparently does _not_ encourage virgin-shaming, not out of deference to you, but just as a matter of course. Wow. I’ve never been dismissed in such a smarmy, condescending way before. Check this. Most adult virgins have double, triple, quadriple whammies. It’s not just that they’ve never had a girlfriend. But they also don’t have many friends. They often have mental illness or neurological issues to deal with (like I deal with). They may have physical defects, like severe acne or obesity. They likely do not have very prestigious jobs and thus lack the trappings of financial success. So your average Incel isn’t fucked-up in the head because he can’t get laid. He’s fucked-up in the head because he’s at the bottom of every hierarchy he can think of. And everywhere he turns, someone is shaming him. Shaming him cuz he hasn’t touched a girl. Shaming him cuz he’s an Aspie. Shaming him because he’s fat and can’t run around the track without vomitting. Shaming him because he lives in his mom’s basement. I didn’t share my story so that you could tell me “It’s not so bad”. I shared my story to convey that if a 40-year-old professional woman who is happily single can feel the sting of virgin shaming, surely it is not hard to imagine how a 20-something underemployed guy trying to fit in a world that puts tremendous value on social contacts and relationships could feel it a lot worse. > [@](#): > > Isn’t it possible that you were the target because you were _already_ the target (the socks) when this lackwit joined the conversation? Not that it excuses such rudeness, of course. Is it possible for you to take my story at face value and not try to paint me as some overly sensitive crazy person? Has anyone ever poked fun at _you_ in that way? Because never have I ever been tempted to do such a thing. Calling it “rudeness” completely misses the fucking point. It was like telling a nigger joke when the conversation is about a basketball game. > [@](#): > > They’re not immune: noone (For me, it’s a word) is. Paraphrasing A. Whitney Brown, there are millions of minorities, and everybody is a member of at least ten of them. But that fact does not give everyone an equal claim to victim status, and you know that better than I do. Just because there are millions of tales of woe out there doesn’t mean that some specific kind of tales aren’t important. I would argue that it is really important to understand any set of experiences shared by men who are mowing people on the street. If you can’t be bothered to listen to people because you think you know their story already, then you can’t be surprised when those people decide _you_ don’t matter to them and they unleash on you. > [@](#): > > I confess to wanting to know something that’s none of my business: what these negative responses are: something along the lines of “what a shame” or “that’s a pity” strike me more as half-witted conclusions to a failed pick-up line than anything else. I can’t imagine what “joke” they might come back with later (and I have heard a lot of ethnic, religious, and sexuality-based jokes). And do they really ask, not if you are currently in a relationship, but if you have _ever_ been in one? I believe you, but I have never heard anybody ask that of anyone. Sorry, I’m not going to feed your curiosity about this. I’m not in the mood to have my answers to you pulled apart. Not by you or anyone else. > [@](#): > > No, you should not, and I didn’t say so. If you want to answer a question about your sexuality to a person whom you like or trust, great. If you decide to go public and write a personal manifesto in the hopes of reducing the stigma you suffer from, also great. I said that well-mannered people don’t indiscriminately discuss their sex lives, but frankly, you have a point: that rule applies mostly to people who have sex, because another person’s privacy is involved. I’ll concede this: virgins who proclaim their virginity should not be punished or disparaged or made the butt of jokes for it. I may not want to hear about my friends’ sex lives, and when hearing about it means hearing about someone’s virginity, well, that hits the exacta of being both TMI and kind of boring. Great. > [@](#): > > But do you realize how far we’ve come from the topic at this point? I don’t know what you’re asking me. And I don’t think I have enough patience to come up with a response even if I did know. > [@](#): > > This is as close as you have ever come to making me think you might be less than perfect. Did I really say you shouldn’t be honest? Certainly you have your boundaries clear: you keep your life secret at work, and share it on a pseudonymous message board, which is fine, and you’ve decided to do that with no input from me. Did I say you deserve anything whatever, good or bad? Are you an “incel,” defending murder in the service of creating a social contract that entails nonconsensual sex? Consider, then, that maybe when I’m talking about them, I’m not talking about you. I’ll admit that I think that Elliott Rodger might have helped himself and all of us with a little self-imposed quietude and reflection. Consider that this is a free-flowing conversation, and that you seem to be talking about the very worst of the worst Incel, while I’m talking about the subpopulation in general who have faced similar struggles as Incels but may not actually identify with their mindset. And though I was addressing you, I wasn’t thinking just about your “good manners” remark. I was also thinking about the invisibility of the romantically unattached and how lack of honesty perpetuates myths and stereotypes. The only visible representatives we have of adult virgins are people like Elliot Rodgers or the Fedora-wearing unfortunately looking individuals we see in internet memes. We don’t see happy, cool, good-looking professionals who are doing positive things in their communities and in their life. And we never hear their stories. Why? Do they not exist? They must exist, because I exist. I can only guess they are invisible because they’ve heard that it isn’t “good manners” for them to talk openly about their lives. It is alright for other people to talk about their sexuality and their romance drama, but no one wants to hear the sob stories from the 40-year-old virgin because it’s TMI. Why it’s TMI, I don’t know. But that’s what you’re telling me, so it must be true. At any rate, because these otherwise successful people keep their lives and their struggles secret, we are left with unemployed neckbeards being the representative face. Perhaps if there was none of this shaming shit (implicit or explicit), everyone–including Incels–would be able to better appreciate the diversity of romance success and failure. Perhaps the Incels would realize that many women, even those who aren’t 500 lbs, also face hardship in the romance department. Perhaps they would also see that even guys who have everything (nice house, nice car, nice job) can make it to 30 without having a girl on his arm. As long as there is a taboo against talking about this, expect Incels to just keep being crazier and more entitled. > [@](#): > > Honestly, reading your post, it’s kind of hard to tell (1) whether you have simply opted out of sexual relationships and are upset that such a choice is often an object of ridicule; (2) whether you’re really talking about virgins or more generally people who don’t have sex for a while; or (3) if you are abstaining from sex but are kind of unhappy and resentful about it (pretty close to my description). I’m not asking, but assuming each one leads to a very different interpretation of what you’re saying. It’s hard for you to tell because none of that matters to the thrust of my post. I didn’t mention it because it’s not important. But FWIW, I’m happily unattached. I don’t want a mate or a tryst. I’m perfectly fine with my lot in life. My life has never been greater, and I envy no one. Yet people still find a way to undermine that happiness with their shitty little comments and jokes and nosiness. It was only through good luck that I endured that shittiness when I wasn’t happy with my life. If I hadn’t found something in my life to be proud of, who knows? Maybe I would have become an Incel (something that was actually started by a woman). > [@](#): > > In short, **monstro** : Virgin-shaming is real, at least among peer groups. I am not convinced that it is as widespread or as venomous and harmful as the hate and derision directed at almost any other despised “other,” who all seem to avoid coalescing into internet hate groups advocating (and sometimes committing) murder, inventing an entire ideology of misogynistic lies to excuse it, and I have to say, you have reinforced, rather than undermined, that skepticism. I am absolutely sure that self-called “incels” are not entitled to any claim of victimhood as they continue their fight for the right to victimize women. Stigmatized and marginalized and lonely is exactly how (until enlightened) these guys _should_ go through life. So what is your solution to the problem? Let them blow themselves up and take everyone down with them? Surely, not being a totally stupid poster, you can think of some basic things we could all do to help young people who are dealing with social failure. Because I think this is what we are dealing with when it comes to Incels. We aren’t talking about evil people who just want to be evil for evil’s sake. We are dealing with social failures who don’t have anywhere to turn with their social failures except a dangerous echo chamber. The world that you inhabit doesn’t want to hear their stories because “TMI, bro! And other people have it worse, so you get no sympathy from me!” If I were a 20-something guy and I had to deal with such dismissiveness, I could see myself noping out of the polite society quite easily. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2018, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/119 "2018-04-29T21:18:02Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > If a person is getting ‘virgin shaming’ and are over 12 years old I would like to suggest that you try to make a new group of friends that are commonly referred to as adults. Maybe not 12, but definitely 18. It’s nobody else’s business. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2018, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269/120 "2018-04-29T21:26:45Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You keep insisting on arguing a point that nobody else is making. You are right, no one has called these incels assholes or thrown any other insults towards them. My bad. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-incels-so-angry/813269.md?page=7)