# Why are Indian kids such great spellers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 29, 2009, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-indian-kids-such-great-spellers/498009 "2009-05-29T08:43:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-indian-kids-such-great-spellers/498009/1 "2009-05-29T08:43:32Z")
I just watched the finals of the National Spelling Bee. One thing I noticed was that, of the 11 kids still competing, seven were of Indian descent . . . including the winner. (When I say “Indian,” I mean the general vicinity of India; I’m not that good identifying names by specific ethnicity). What is the reason why these kids should excel in this particular skill? ---
**Author:** ![Donovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ea666f/32.png) [@Donovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donovan)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-indian-kids-such-great-spellers/498009/2 "2009-05-29T08:55:50Z")
WAG - the kids have parents that really want them to succeed and focus on the traditional aspects of education, a lot of times they are the children of first generation immigrants, and the parents are well educated themselves. A lot of the immigrants from that part of the world are highly educated and came to the country in order to take advantage of opportunities not necessarily available in their home countries or were educated in the US and decided to stay. There were a few kids like that in my school district; they were playing classical instruments at a very young age and came into school already ahead of the class due to the strong emphasis placed on success in academic fields even before they entered school. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-indian-kids-such-great-spellers/498009/3 "2009-05-29T09:41:04Z")
Also, unlike first generation immigrants from many other countries, many educated Indians speak English as a first language. ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-indian-kids-such-great-spellers/498009/4 "2009-05-29T09:55:25Z")
Also a current thread here: > **[Success of Indian (dot) kids at U.S spelling bee competitions .](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=519141)** > > What gives ? ---
**Author:** ![BrandonR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@BrandonR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrandonR)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-indian-kids-such-great-spellers/498009/5 "2009-05-29T14:41:15Z")
It’s like asking why Asian kids are good at math… I think it might have less to do with skill and more to do with what level they were pushed to succeed by their parents and teachers at young ages. If American kids perform poorly in their class, their parents complain to the teacher and the bar gets set lower. If Asian kids perform poorly in their class, the teacher hits them with a ruler. Obviously I just posted a bunch of sweeping generalizations that don’t hold true for every situation but it does seem like first generation, American-raised kids with foreign parents push them extremely hard to succeed when they come to the US… ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-indian-kids-such-great-spellers/498009/6 "2009-05-29T16:31:12Z")
It’s genetic. Our high foreheads conceal a handy storage compartment into which a copy of the concise OED fits perfectly. Removing tongue from cheek: one, because their parents instil an extreme dedication to learning, and two, because well-to-do Indian families raise their children to be bilingual, and quite commonly trilingual (English, Hindi and Marathi/Gujarati/Tamil/whatever), which means Indian kids have highly developed language skills from a very early age. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-indian-kids-such-great-spellers/498009/7 "2009-05-29T16:52:39Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It’s genetic. Our high foreheads conceal a handy storage compartment into which a copy of the concise OED fits perfectly. > > Removing tongue from cheek: one, because their parents instil an extreme dedication to learning, and two, because well-to-do Indian families raise their children to be bilingual, and quite commonly trilingual (English, Hindi and Marathi/Gujarati/Tamil/whatever), which means Indian kids have highly developed language skills from a very early age. No, it actually is genetic. Many cultures need to be multi-lingual; the commonest example here in the US is the group who needs to know Spanish and English. Linguistic ability is fundamentally genetic in the same way that many other skills are: nurture layered upon a genetic foundation–an ability in this case to absorb and retain the learning. While the environmental influences are necessary to actually reach a maximum potential, without a genetic superiority no given group would consistently be over-represented for a particular skill, especially in areas where it’s so easy to show similar opportunity. So let’s stop pretending caucasians, for example, have a lesser dedication to learning, or are somehow lazier. Or that exposure to Hindustani increases success in the national spelling bee. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-indian-kids-such-great-spellers/498009/8 "2009-05-29T17:08:31Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > So let’s stop pretending caucasians, for example, have a lesser dedication to learning, or are somehow lazier. Or that exposure to Hindustani increases success in the national spelling bee. So spelling can be genetic but work ethic can’t? Interesting theory. I don’t think anyone is suggesting that exposure to Hindustani increases success. I’m suggesting that exposure to multiple (effectively unrelated) languages does. I imagine Chinese kids who learned English, Cantonese and Mandarin would have similar success, but most Chinese do not learn both Cantonese and Mandarin. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-indian-kids-such-great-spellers/498009/9 "2009-05-29T18:04:44Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > No, it actually is genetic. I’m not quite sure. Is this is a failed joke or not? > [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > While the environmental influences are necessary to actually reach a maximum potential, without a genetic superiority no given group would consistently be over-represented for a particular skill, especially in areas where it’s so easy to show similar opportunity. Because this sounds serious, but of course it’s completely wrong. (Unless by ‘similar opportunity’, it means ‘identical culture’. But that’s the opposite of what’s going on with Indian spelling bee participants.) ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-indian-kids-such-great-spellers/498009/10 "2009-05-29T19:15:56Z")
It’s what people think is important. I know a lot of immigrants and they seem to be very concerned that they are speaking correctly. I had a landlady who was 70 years old and from Poland. She spoke fine English, but her accent was heavy and after living here for 20 years she still took English classes and was upset that she had an accent. I kept telling her everyone understands you, you’re never gonna lose your accent so just forget it. But she wanted to speak like an American. It was very important to her. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-indian-kids-such-great-spellers/498009/11 "2009-05-29T19:25:41Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > No, it actually is genetic. [snip] Linguistic ability is fundamentally genetic in the same way that many other skills are: nurture layered upon a genetic foundation–an ability in this case to absorb and retain the learning. I would like to be the first to greet our new Indian Master Race Overlords. UR SCIENCE UNDERSTANDIN’: POOR ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-indian-kids-such-great-spellers/498009/12 "2009-05-29T21:10:53Z")
Blondes on the left, please. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-indian-kids-such-great-spellers/498009/13 "2009-05-29T21:46:35Z")
I didn’t see it this year - was there another large delegation of extremely polite kids from that private school in Kingston, Jamaica, dominating the finals? Why are \*Jamaican \*kids such great spellers? (Psst… parental and teacher encouragement just might be involved, no matter who the kid is …) ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-indian-kids-such-great-spellers/498009/14 "2009-05-30T03:09:02Z")
If Indian kids can learn to spell their names, they have a head start. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-indian-kids-such-great-spellers/498009/15 "2009-05-30T03:40:26Z")
The _New York Times_ ran an [article](http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/05/weekinreview/05berger.html) on this very question back in 2005: > [@](#): > > In recent years, descendants of Indian immigrants - less than 1 percent of the population - have dominated this contest, snatching first place in five of the past seven years, and making up more than 30 of the 273 contestants this year. > > Behind those statistics lies a beguiling story, not just of immigrant pluck, but of a craze that seems to have swept through the Indian-American community. > > Excellence in a number of fields has always had a cultural tinge - consider the prevalence of Dominicans in baseball, Jews in violin playing, Kenyans in long-distance running. In 1985, when a 13-year-old son of Indian immigrants, Balu Natarajan, beat out his competitors by spelling “milieu,” it had an electrifying impact on his countrymen, much as Juan Marichal’s conquest of baseball had for Dominicans. Balu not only became an overnight Indian sensation, one whose name resonates 20 years later, but other Indian-Americans have tried to emulate his feat. […] > > By 1993, the North South Foundation, based outside of Chicago and devoted to making sure Indians here do as well in English as in math, set up a parallel universe of spelling bees. Now 60 chapters around the country hold such contests, according to its founder, Ratnam Chitturi. > > They become a minor-league training ground for the major league 80-year-old Scripps National Spelling Bee, which was started by The Louisville Courier-Journal as a way to promote “general interest among pupils in a dull subject.” > > The enthusiasm has spread. There are now chat rooms and blogs where Indians discuss spelling. Stories about the contests are featured prominently in community newspapers. > > “When you see a kid spelling correctly, there was the excitement that he was representing all of us,” said Arun Venugopal, a reporter for the newspaper India Abroad who has written about the spelling bees. > > Indian families throw themselves in fevered fashion behind their youngsters, drilling them on esoteric words and etymologies, Greek and Latin roots, as well as from spelling lists provided on the Scripps Web site. In doing so, they are as single-minded as other American parents, who have been known to help their fledgling gymnasts, tennis players and singers. So, while being good at spelling must certainly involve some qualities of intelligence and memory with a strong hereditary component, I don’t think we need to appeal to a specifically _racial_ explanation to account for so many Indian-American kids becoming champions in the particular achievement niche of spelling bees. The actual explanation seems to be primarily that student success in spelling bees (as opposed to, say, art exhibitions or poetry contests or gymnastics competitions) happens to be getting a lot of attention and support in their culture at present. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-indian-kids-such-great-spellers/498009/16 "2009-05-30T04:34:47Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > The _New York Times_ ran an [article](http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/05/weekinreview/05berger.html) on this very question back in 2005: > > So, while being good at spelling must certainly involve some qualities of intelligence and memory with a strong hereditary component, I don’t think we need to appeal to a specifically _racial_ explanation to account for so many Indian-American kids becoming champions in the particular achievement niche of spelling bees. The actual explanation seems to be primarily that student success in spelling bees (as opposed to, say, art exhibitions or poetry contests or gymnastics competitions) happens to be getting a lot of attention and support in their culture at present. Excellence in any endeavor is a combination of an hereditary component and environmental influence. An easy way to see this in daily life is to look at a large family and observe how different children from the same family are–all with the same enivronmental influence. The difference is their genes. And an underlying genetic superiority for a given area–math, athleticism, musical ability, linguistics…whatever–drives both proclivity and culture. It’s unlikely–not impossible, but unlikely–for an individual to pursue something for which they have minimal aptitude. It’s unrewarding. If my genetic endowment lays a foundation for me to be good at languages, say, and lousy at basketball, then I am likely to enjoy pursuing language and less likely to pursue basketball beyond a hobby level. When one sees a given population as a whole over-represented within a given pursuit that requires both an underlying gift of innate ability and a superimposed training, it is likely that there is a cultural drive which supports that pursuit. However it is equally necessary for there to be an underlying genetic over-representation of whatever genes underpin the ability in order for a given population to consistently excel when the rest of the playing field has been leveled. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-indian-kids-such-great-spellers/498009/17 "2009-05-30T12:30:42Z")
Keep in mind that **Chief Pendant** is well known for having his own unique views on genetics. In my experience, most other countries have a vastly different concept of what “learning” is. In most countries, there is a lot of emphasis on memorizing and recalling information. Students are raised to memorize large amounts of information from a young age. This leads to being very good at things that can be drilled, like math or spelling. In America, we’d rather teach kids how to find the information they need (e.g. use a dictionary) and how to analyze that information. We don’t care as much about what we know, as long as we know how to find it an what to do with it afterwards. Our education system is much more into giving us critical thinking skills than teaching us the ins and outs of any given subject. In my opinion, this is why we generally aren’t great mathematicians, but we are great business people. So a child growing up in a household that values memorization-based learning is going to succeed better at these tasks than one that emphasizes something different. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-indian-kids-such-great-spellers/498009/18 "2009-05-30T14:58:27Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Keep in mind that **Chief Pendant** is well known for having his own unique views on genetics. > > In my experience, most other countries have a vastly different concept of what “learning” is. In most countries, there is a lot of emphasis on memorizing and recalling information. Students are raised to memorize large amounts of information from a young age. This leads to being very good at things that can be drilled, like math or spelling. > > In America, we’d rather teach kids how to find the information they need (e.g. use a dictionary) and how to analyze that information. We don’t care as much about what we know, as long as we know how to find it an what to do with it afterwards. Our education system is much more into giving us critical thinking skills than teaching us the ins and outs of any given subject. In my opinion, this is why we generally aren’t great mathematicians, but we are great business people. > > So a child growing up in a household that values memorization-based learning is going to succeed better at these tasks than one that emphasizes something different. I’m not sure the **Pedant** is well-known for anything…one of these days I have to request a change to **Chief Pendant** as I have almost grown to prefer it, and it definitely has more bling in the name. In posting here, my intention is to submit posts backed by evidence, and let the chips fall where they may. In addition to painting me with a broad brush, you’ve painted whole countries with a fairly broad brush. In the US, for instance, while we–as a heterogeneous group–may “generally” not be “great mathematicians” it turns out our asian subpopulations are. Here, for example, are some 2008 Connecticut SAT scores broken down by ethnicity: [http://web.ccsu.edu/oira/research/highered/sat\_ct\_race-ethnicity(2009).pdf](http://web.ccsu.edu/oira/research/highered/sat_ct_race-ethnicity(2009).pdf) A tour of academic disciplines would confirm that asians are generally over-represented in STEM fields, and the marketplace would also confirm this superior performance, with asians again markedly over-represented in fields requiring those background disciplines. (Slide 10 for the STEM proportions by ethnicity, e.g.): [http://www.gs.howard.edu/agep/presentation\_pdf/Howard-utep.pdf](http://www.gs.howard.edu/agep/presentation_pdf/Howard-utep.pdf) Notice the marked improvement in the last 25 years for Under-Represented Minorities in the Social Sciences, but the trivial change for the same URM groups in Engineering or Math&Computer Sciences. It’s difficult to make a case that the STEM academia has somehow deliberately shunned an effort to be more inclusive. Their dilemma is that, because their disciplines are quantifiable, it’s much harder to be inclusive if the groups you are trying to include are less capable, on average. There is no easy mechanism to circumvent standards in order to be more inclusive if the standards in question are not subjective. You would find, across the globe, that (roughly speaking) economically robust–or economically rising–countries whose economic success is not a direct consequence of simply selling a resource (oil, for instance) generally contain large sub-populations of ethnic groups who outperform on standardized tests. You would not be able to explain away ethnic performance difference by arguing for a difference in opportunity. In the United States, you would find that if you corrected SAT scores, for instance, for family income levels, some populations (blacks, for instance) would still underperform asians even if the black family income was higher. And if you gave various cohorts the same four years of college preparation, score differentials by ethnic populations would still persist–and persists with huge gaps–into post-graduate testing such as MCATS and LSATS: [http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2005/mcatgparaceeth.htm](http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2005/mcatgparaceeth.htm) [http://www.lsacnet.org/research/LSAT-Performance-with-Regional-Gender-and-Racial-Ethnic-Breakdowns-1997–1998-Through-2003–2004-Testing-Years.pdf](http://www.lsacnet.org/research/LSAT-Performance-with-Regional-Gender-and-Racial-Ethnic-Breakdowns-1997%E2%80%931998-Through-2003%E2%80%932004-Testing-Years.pdf) I disagree that our US educational system somehow emphasizes “critical thinking” over memorization. That’s much too broad a brush. What you would find instead is that various populations gravitate toward, and excel in, some disciplines over others. Any given population is still heterogenous enough that there are enormous overlaps and many outliers. But when two measures are taken–broad averages and percent of very high performers–it becomes obvious that there are significant, measurable and relatively immutable–i.e. innate–differences among populations. What we “generally are” as Americans is heterogenous. Narrow that down to various subpopulations and the genetically-defined substrates will emerge with increasing clarity depending on how narrowly a given sub-population is defined. ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_Dubinsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dbc845/32.png) [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-indian-kids-such-great-spellers/498009/19 "2009-05-31T01:10:04Z")
When immigrants appear disproportionally smart, there generally _is_ a genetic explanation. The explanation is that first-generation legal immigrants manage to get here through a combination of financial success, commitment, and proclivity toward hard work. The process of immigration, if it is difficult and expensive like the one from India/China/Russia to America, is a powerful filter. It’s not to say that the rich are more intelligent. It’s that the new rich are more intelligent. The old rich aren’t so eager to leave their countries.