Having been in Iraq I would generally agree that there ARE units of the American trained IP’s and IA who support the insurgents. To say, however, that the American’s want that to happen to maintain an enemy so that we can keep our war is ridiculous. The days of ‘It’s a crappy war, but it’s the only one we’ve got’ type thinking are over. I have never met or even heard of an officer in the US military who wants war for war’s sake -Alexander the Great style.
I would, sir, concur on that point. While I was in Iraq I did the rough math on how many of the largest super tanker sized oil loads we would have to steal in order to even come close to breaking even and, if I recall correctly, it was something like 130,000 loads. If anyone thinks that there have been ~130,000 tanker trips to the U.S. and no one noticed they are crazy, have you seen gas prices? I suppose one could contend that the loads did not enter the general US market, thus keeping prices up, but went instead to US reserve facilities. That, to me at least, seems like the long conspiracy theory dream of an ‘I saw JFK and Elvis in his guitar shaped UFO’ nut case.
This idea of some super planned conspiracy goes against the oft mentioned idea that the US government/military/whatever is so incompetent they can’t finish the war. Don’t try and say that the US wants to prolong a war, because 230 yrs of US history should teach us that America loves a good quick war with lots of victory to take to the polls. Notice Bush 1 and 2 have both enjoyed soaring poll numbers as the result of a ‘fun’ victorious war(s), the election just didn’t come soon enough for Bush 1 to win reelection.
Just a note on what the impressions I got of the general Iraqi/Arab mind in Iraq. The ave. Joe is a normal guy who wants to provide for his family. If he can make more emplacing IEDs or filling sand bags for the US he will consider it. Most Iraqi’s, even the educated ones, have some pretty wacko understanding of the history of the World, thanks to that little dictator who had his pic at the front of every text book. The US didn’t start WWI or WWII. The US does not control the economies or politics of Japan or Germany. Generally their English is far better than our Arabic but they would flunk a 9th grade history exam.
Along the same lines remember that most folk think of themselves more as Arabs than Iraqis or even Shia/Sunni. Do remember that the Shia fought WITH Saddam during the Iran war, they didn’t foment a rebellion to unite with their (PERSIAN) Shia brothers to the east. It is true however, that all things being equal the Sunni sure love kicking the crap out of the Shia. The Shia folk could be shady too, but the Sunni’s seemed to be more like the mob. When they got wacked they didn’t sit around waiting to figure out what to do like the Shia (caveat: in the areas in which I served), they seemed to have a hit list already written up. They just went to the next guy down on the list and killed him at the most opportune time.
Do remember that this was led by the son of Teddy Roosevelt, a man who did believe in ‘It’s a crappy war, but it’s the only one we’ve got’ Alexander the Great style ‘Honor’ etc. I think America got a belly full of woe from this type of action in Vietnam and has generally stayed out of the business (except perhaps in S. America, but then perhaps the Monroe doctrine applies) of knocking off democratically elected guys we don’t like (Hugo Chavez is still kicking).
Well, why bother to steal when the oil companies can make money just by suppressing the sale of Iraqi oil and driving up world oil prices ? They are making record profits.
It takes far less planning to suppress oil output and rake off “rebuilding” money than to win a guerrilla war.
So the Iraqi armed forces which mobilised within Baghdad with 70,000 troops, which are an arm of the Iraqi government, aren’t following orders and thus being ‘governed’ by that said authority?
The point is they can’t govern the people, not outside of Baghdad – or within it, for that matter. Step outside the Green Zone and you’re in lawless territory.
The oil community could be suppressing production, I would like to see some facts though. Last I recall it was the insurgents who tried blowing up the oil equipment in the gulf and repeatedly blew up the lines in country, I saw this twice myself.
I suppose you are right about the relative ease of suppressing output and raking money off the top, if that’s what is happening, is certainly possible; fraud waste and abuse exist almost everywhere you find humans involved in the system. I do not think, however, that Bush would allow the suppressing of output if he could do anything about it (and ~130,000 troops is plenty of ability) because it only goes to hurt him.
Bad oil numbers make it look like Iraq’s gov. is having prob’s and the Sec. of Oil is on the take, not good for Bush’s #'s. Also, a general prob with oil flow (as previously mentioned) only hurts the general economy. A gradual increase in cost is what happens/is desired in matters involving a limited resource in capitalism. If one thinks that Bush is so in bed with the oil corps that he would do this I would say you think he owns more stock than any one human does in Exxon.
The guy will make a KILLING just speaking after his term and won’t make a dime if he can be found to 1) have caused extra servicemen to die in Iraq while he tried to suppress production and drive up the price and 2) caused energy costs to rise such that it cost literally EVERY American lots extra at the pump (for some reason Americans are really sensitive about gas prices but don’t seem to care much about taxs, SUV costs etc. it’s a psych thing). If this was found to be true there are millions of redneck Red State citizens who would KILL him for it. The people would riot for sure.
This man has never cared about the welfare of any enterprise he’s had control over; he makes his profit from his family connections. Given that he’s such big buddies with the Saudi royal family, that alone gives him a motive to raise worldwide prices.
Bush has never suffered consequences for anything he’s done in his life; I doubt he even considers the downside of anything he does. For him, there is none.
And as far as the Red Staters seeking vengeance, forget it. Those people are mindless right wing cattle; he can treat them any way he wants, and they’ll blame it all on the liberals.
Ok from the top, ‘No invasion, no insurgents.’ well I suppose so but this is more a discussion of how things are now, after the invasion.
As for him never caring about his succes/enterprise well I just think that is crazy. Bill Clinton, the Bush’s, Reagan, Carter, all generally tried, i think, to be successful. The point of contention has to do with all those POTUS’s had/have different standards of what quantifies success.
So you are saying that for the sake of family ties to the Saudis he is going to fart on his own country, his own legacy, his own administration? I think from a logical stand point there is not enough money to be made simply from stock dividends (or what have you [kick backs you would say maybe?] from the Saudis) to risk raising the price of oil, spending $1/3 trillion, and getting caught having trumped it all up as a pyramid get rich quick scheme.
As for the red staters, they would kill him for the right reason, they’re the type that love the reason we rebeled from King George and they still reinact the Civ War. You call them mindless because they like to kill over issues, so why not think they would over gas?
I’m obviously from the states, where are you from and where do you live now?
Sure. I don’t think he cares in the slightest about America. As for the rest; as I said, I think he just doesn’t believe in personal consequences. He’s been untouchable from childhood, after all.
They would never belive Bush was to blame; they’ll blame the liberals, gays and atheists, like always.
Iraq probably has as much oil as Saudi arabia-the olde fields around Kirkuk aren’t even close to being fully exploited. I suspect that there is a lot of petroleum in the ground-and this is what Bush is counting on to save Iraq. A SA-sized oilfield would bring foreign investment in, and pay for the country to be totally rebuilt-if we can keep the shia and sunnis from slaughtering eachother.
Chouinard Fan, you were correct in what you told me on the phone. There’s just no point in arguing with some people. “You can’t argue a position that a person didn’t reach through logic.”
I did especially like the XXL helping of liberal elitism, though. Way to make yourself look reasoned and lucid, dude.
“Liberal elitism” ? As opposed to the people who treat the Iraqi’s as subhuman ? As opposed to the people who think America is “The Greatest Country in the World !”, and specially chosen by God ? It’s the right that is elitist; insanely, murderously so.
Who is this “they” who are somehow intrinsically incapable of blaming Bush, no matter what? Because it looks as though he has recently been losing significant amounts of support among conservatives, Republicans, and other red-staters:
I’m sure there are some absolutely die-hard Bush supporters who could see Bush eating their barbecued grandmother and find some way to blame it on those atheist gay liberals. But I doubt they’re representative of all red-staters, and if you continue to claim otherwise then I’d like to see a cite.
What you’ll fail to find is the part where I said there weren’t elitists on both sides. So why don’t you just shut up? Wow, that’s about as strong as I’ve ever gotten on this board, or care to, because, see, when we fly off the handle, it makes all our points shink in relevance. We seem like the kind of person given to making emotional statements with little content, and then people discount what we have to say.
For the record, I didn’t say that, and you’re riding the train that I just LOVE to see go down the tracks: The other side has jerks in it, so it therefore follows that my side doesn’t / or must be right.
No examples of liberal elitism have been given, nor have I seen any. I have, however, observed some silly arguments.
Higher oil prices help oil companies (just as a drought in California will help Florida Citrus producers). But $3.00 petrol tends to upset voters (at least in the US), Wall Street doesn’t appreciate higher inflation and on the whole the Republican donor class is hurt by higher input prices. It’s a net loser.
Incidentally, Der Trihs, you may be villifying the wrong guy. The Iraq War may have sprung from the Cheney-Rumsfeld axis. Frontline’s June 20th episode explores the intragovernmental conflicts between those neocons and Tenet’s CIA.
Actually, I think it’s significant that 2/3 of all Republicans still approve of the job the President is doing. Furthermore, campaigns based on fear, queers and smears have never failed the Republicans in the past. This year may be different. But I’m not holding my breath.
As long as naive voters look to their leaders for emotional gratification, as opposed to tough-minded fact-based analysis, politicians with wonkish leanings such as Bill Clinton will face substantial challenges. Even when –especially when– they have a proven record of success.
Oops, sorry. My last post provides some excellent examples of liberal elitism. Sue me. Hm: “Mindless right-wing cattle”. I guess I better concede this point.
I read Baghdad Burning . A Family In Iraq ,And Free Iraq frequently. These are blogs from people in Iraq. They call the foreign troops occupiers. They complain about paying huge gas prices, having very little electricity , intermitent running water, and fear of encountering troops that will mistreat them and take their men away. They wait at night for their front doors to be kicked dpwn and the soldiers to physically abuse them,
After you get into a country ,you have a war for hearts and minds. We are losing that war miserably. Unemployment and government corruption are a fact of life. Paul Bremers 100 points which took over the businesses in Iraq is well known and hated . Before the Bush war Iraqi women didn,t have to wear the traditional clothes and were able to walk the streets. and go to school and work.
The Oil-game: 1) Sanctions + Shock and Awe => A lot to repair 2) The US tax-payers pays for the war. 3) US companies repairs and gets payments from the sold Iraqi oil. 4) The oil is sold for a favorable price to the US oil-companies. 5) Out of the 100 biggest companies operating in Iraq, 60 does not pay taxes to USA, even the personnel is hired through Cayman Islands and such tax-paradises. 6) The war that the US tax-payers pays for need more money. 7) Every senator and congressman tries to get orders to his state; orders of guns and ammo and whatever the military needs. The tax-payers pay.
Conclusion:
Us firms will build whatever for years, because of the good contracts. (Schools and hospitals will be nice for the propaganda,… and the companies)
The oil-companies are glad to buy oil from Iraq. As long as there is any left.
The tax-payers, some of them, can’t understand why the oil does not come for their benefit. Suckers! These same guys that can’t figure out how it works, are just unhappy to pay more taxes [later], but will anyhow pay them “because of national interests”!!! Big suckers!
The Iraqi guy know how this game goes. He knows that as it is, he will not, or his people will not see any oil-money before the debts are paid. Which takes, according to some sources, about 30 years with the today prices (at the well).
And some Americans believes that US will leave the best business opportunity in the world?
That US will leave as long as the corporations are against?
The same corporations that has bought (lobbied) the congressmen and senators and tells them “what is in the interests of the nation”???
Besides, Iraq is geopolitically a very important country, so even the hawks are against leaving.
So who is for leaving Iraq? The tax-payers? And how is that seen?
Even the Pride Parades are bigger than all the protesters put together.
Suckers! These same guys that can’t figure out how it works, are just unhappy to pay more taxes [later], but will anyhow pay them “because of national interests”!!! Big suckers!