# Why are Italian-American names so badly mispronounced, even by their owners? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 22, 2005, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660 "2005-03-22T00:49:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/61 "2005-03-24T14:45:38Z")
> [@Doobieous](#): > > Those who drop the t will be hung, set on fire and then drowned. Do you mean they’ll be “hanged,” as in “by the neck until dead,” or do you mean they’ll just be hung like a wall decoration? ---
**Author:** ![OxyMoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e9a140/32.png) [@OxyMoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OxyMoron)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/62 "2005-03-25T14:32:42Z")
I suspect he means hung in a rather…_different_ sense. What I don’t get about these little controversies is that, this being America 'n all, it’s easy enough to change the spelling to fit the pronunciation. That’s especially true the farther west you go: Worcester, MA v. Wooster, OH. Why not simply spell the damn name Shyvo or Talyafyero or somesuch? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/63 "2005-03-25T14:35:13Z")
> [@OxyMoron](#): > > I suspect he means hung in a rather…_different_ sense. > > What I don’t get about these little controversies is that, this being America 'n all, it’s easy enough to change the spelling to fit the pronunciation. That’s especially true the farther west you go: Worcester, MA v. Wooster, OH. Why not simply spell the damn name Shyvo or Talyafyero or somesuch? With all the Taemis and Madysyns and Lemonjellos (:D) in the world, you’d think more people would be okay with changing the spelling of LAST names, too… ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/64 "2005-03-25T15:36:10Z")
Amen. There can even be different pronunciations in different regions of the US. E.g., my surname is Greek. The first half is the ‘Pappa’ prefix (indicating a priest). When he came through Ellis Island, my father anglicized the last part of the name, but very deliberately preserved the original ‘double-p’ spelling, which is distinct from the Italian spelling of ‘Papa’. In their respective old countries, both are pronounced with a long “a” sound (as in ‘pop’). Now, I grew up in a small West Virginia town with very few Italians or Greeks. Everyone, including me, pronounced my name with a short “a” sound (as in ‘cat’). This was the convention with the names most people there heard on a regular basis (‘Capp’, ‘Sapp’, 'Clapper, 'etc.) When I heard my father pronounce it with a long “a”, I assumed it was his foreign accent (but I usually pronounced it that way around him or my mom). When I moved to the Baltimore/Washington region (where people encounter Italian and Greek names a lot more frequently), I found that people seeing my printed name invariably used the long “a”, which is how I now pronounce it. I guess, when you’re in Rome, do as the Baltimoreans do. > [@pulykamell](#): > > Because the name has become anglicized within the family. I pronounce my Polish surname with an English pronunciation, not the correct Polish one. Let’s suppose my last name was “Kowalski.” Even though I know it’s actually pronounced “Koh-VAHL-skee,” I choose to pronounce it “Koh-WALL-ski,” because it’s simply easier that way. Nine out of ten people pronounce it the English way, so rather than correct everybody, it’s just easier on all parties involved to simply anglicize the name. > > This happens with names of all nationalities—I don’t even think that Italian that gets a disproportionate amount of anglicization heaped upon it. How many German, Slavic, Spanish, Hungarian, etc., names get pronounced like in the original language? ---
**Author:** ![brownie55](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f14d63/32.png) [@brownie55](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brownie55)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2005, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/65 "2005-03-26T01:14:09Z")
Regarding ownership of one’s name: My buddy the EMT once transported a patient who’s name was pronounced “SHA-thayd” and I belive she would have been rightly upset if you pronounced it like it looked, “Shithead” ---
**Author:** ![sjc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e5b9ba/32.png) [@sjc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sjc)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2005, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/66 "2005-03-26T16:52:30Z")
My family mispronounces my Italian. Everyone gets the consonants (more or less) right, but the vowels… There are four vowels in my last name, three of which are a’s and one of which is an ‘o’. The ‘o’ gets it’s proper value, but the 'a’s are pronounced: ‘a’ as in cat, schwa, and ‘e’ as in ferry. They should all be pronounced pronounced ‘ah’. I don’t really understand why we pronounce our name this way, it seems like a fairly easy name for Americans to pronounce very nearly correctly, but we still pronounce it incorrectly. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2005, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/67 "2005-03-26T18:42:43Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > It’s impossible for the owner of a name to mispronounce his own name. Whatever pronunciation that person uses is the correct pronunciation. Although I understand your point, this statement is not strictly correct. I mispronounce my own name all the time, and know very well it is incorrect. My surname is a misspelled version of a Swiss-German name. I know how it should be pronounced correctly, and in an ideal world I would prefer that pronunciation to be used. Years ago, I used to pronounce it the correct way, but it was always a hassle. People would constantly ask me to repeat it, since it was so unfamiliar. (Also, pronouncing it that way sounds affected to an English speaker.) Now for simplicity I just use the Anglicized pronunciation, because its much easier to deal with people that way, even though I know it’s incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![Helix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e19adc/32.png) [@Helix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helix)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2005, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/68 "2005-03-27T00:20:58Z")
Gosh. For sure, your name is correctly pronounced how you pronounce it. There are many historical examples including that depicted in “Young Frankenstein”. You know, “That’s Frankensteeeen!”. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/69 "2005-03-28T14:51:51Z")
I’d like to propose a sub-rule. If the general rule is that the way you pronounce your own name is correct, then I’d also propose that it is never _incorrect_ to pronounce a name the way it is pronounced in its language of origin. ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2005, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/70 "2005-03-29T02:50:35Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > I’d like to propose a sub-rule. If the general rule is that the way you pronounce your own name is correct, then I’d also propose that it is never _incorrect_ to pronounce a name the way it is pronounced in its language of origin. I was almost with you on the sub-rule, but what about names like Caitlin? If you called to an American named Caitlin using the Gaelic pronunciation, she might not even turn her head. People are using the term “correct” in this thread without defining it. Surely one cannot expect that failure to pronounce a name according to someone’s (possibly unconventional) preference would carry any kind of penalty. Objectively, about all you can say is (a) whether the pronunciation is standard and (b) whether the bearer of the name pronounces it in the standard way. Everything else is opinion. I am not suggesting that if a guy named Hugh wants you to pronounce it “Huff” that you should insist on saying it “Hyoo” even if it pisses him off. But nobody can seriously argue that “Huff” is any kind of conventional or standard pronunciation. There’s nothing Hugh can do to change that. ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2005, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/71 "2005-03-29T06:28:07Z")
Here are three points: First, awhile back, there was an American college football quarterback whose family name was “Theez-man.” He was so good, though, that he was a contender for the Heisman (highs-man) trophy. Suddenly, the headlines and posters chanted Theissman (thighs-man) for Heisman. The player went with the tide, and he’s been Joe “Thighs-man” ever since. I know two men whose grandfathers had quarrels with their families. A Stamps became a Stamp, and a Motzinger (Swiss) became a Motsinger (Bohemian). The changes lay hidden for two generations. When Newton “Ging-rick” went into politics, he Americanized his name. We call the former Speaker of the House Newt “Ging-rich” now. Yes, the owner of the name gets to call the tune. My last name sounded different in the old country. It’s spelled the same, but we say it differently over here. ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2005, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/72 "2005-03-29T14:53:38Z")
> [@AskNott](#): > > When Newton “Ging-rick” went into politics, he Americanized his name. We call the former Speaker of the House Newt “Ging-rich” now. The last time I saw Newt Gingrich on TV, he referred to himself in the third person (must have been hanging around Bob Dole too long). He pronounced his name “Gingrick”. I don’t know what that proves either way. ---
**Author:** ![Not\_Insane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/34f0e0/32.png) [@Not\_Insane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Not_Insane)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/73 "2010-11-17T04:01:27Z")
I have an Italian surname. It is a very simple name of the form CVCVCV. I pronounce my name using the Anglicized pronunciation, the one used by all of my relatives with that name and by everyone in the US I’ve met with that name, even unrelated persons. Since I don’t speak Italian at all (or more relevantly, don’t speak it as a native language), how could anyone consider the Italian pronunciation to be correct? 2 other points: 1. I do speak a 2nd (non-native) language. When I lived in Germany, everyone Germanized the pronunciation of my last name, even though its spelling does not look German. At first I corrected them. After a couple of dozen corrections, I adopted the German pronunciation – but only when speaking German. 2. Most Americans use what they think is the Italian pronunciation of my name, but like many Italian names, it is an exception to the stress rules. I’m so used to it that I don’t even correct people anymore. My first name is James. I never use a nickname, but everyone insists on calling me Jim. Not only do I no longer correct them, but I don’t even hear the difference anymore. ---
**Author:** ![GiantRat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@GiantRat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GiantRat)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/74 "2010-11-17T04:17:25Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > It’s impossible for the owner of a name to mispronounce his own name. Whatever pronunciation that person uses is the correct pronunciation. > . Obligatory _Space Camp_ response: Andie: Hideo Takamini… HIDEO TAKAMINI? Kevin: Right here! [holding up a stolen nametag] Andie: Hideo Takamini? Kevin: Well actually it’s pronounced “Kevin Donaldson.” Andie: I don’t have a “Donaldson.” Kevin: Well, you have one now. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/75 "2010-11-17T05:05:48Z")
Maybe not typical, but my family has a name that is a common Jewish name, though an uncommon spelling. My dad was born into a Jewish family, but for whatever reasons distanced himself from Judaism. He started pronouncing the family name how it would be pronounced as if it were German, presumably so it wouldn’t sound as Jewish. I was 50 before I found out that all my relatives with the last same name pronounced it differently that we did, and that it’s not a German name but probably has its origins in Hebrew by way of Lithuania. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/76 "2010-11-17T05:15:04Z")
Ahhh! Italian zombies! Get out the garlic! ---
**Author:** ![Antigen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/848f3c/32.png) [@Antigen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antigen)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/77 "2010-11-17T05:44:38Z")
> [@Barbarian](#): > > If you think Americans mangle italian names, try 'em out on french surnames. My wife’s last name is Gauthier, pronounced Gotyay, but Americans cannot say anything except Goth-yeer unless we really train 'em. Same goes for Berthiaume (Bair-tyoam v. Ber-thoom) and Paquette (Pack-ett v. Pocket). Heck, there are people in the maritime provinces who pronounce Paquette as ‘pocket’. I’ve used an anglicized version of my last name for years because it’s just easier. When I’m speaking French, I’ll say it the French way, but if I’m speaking English, I’ll say it the English way. I’d rather it be mangled by pretending it’s an English word, than attempting a very bad imitation of the French pronunciation. It’s a name that’s very hard for non-French-speakers to say “properly”. ---
**Author:** ![lshaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e36b37/32.png) [@lshaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lshaw)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/78 "2010-11-17T09:53:57Z")
Because everyone else butchers it? My surname is romanized from Chinese, so of course most people in America pronounce it every way but the way it’s actually pronounced in Mandarin. When I’m introducing myself to non-Chinese, I always just say it in the “mispronounced” way. No one would be able to pronounce it if I say it the “correct” way. Just makes it easier. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/79 "2010-11-17T12:01:45Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Not according to the AP and other style guides. The speaker always is right when it comes to pronuciation and spelling of his own name. > > Consider: On the TV show, “Petrocelli” was pointedly pronounced with a “ch” sound, (petro-Chelli) yet Rico Petrocelli pronounced it with an “s” (Petro-selli). When talking about the TV show, “Petro-chelli” was correct; when talking about the ballplayer, “Petro-selli” was correct. Rico himself, when asked, said no one in his family used the TV version of his name. What right do you have to say he’s wrong? > > In England, “Featherstonehaugh” is pronounced “Fanshaw.” However, around here, there is a Featherstonehaugh family that pronounces it “feather-stone-haw.” If you called them “fanshaw,” you’d be mispronouncing their name. > > Or, John Chancellor – he annouced at one point in his career that his name is pronounced with an “OR” at the end, not the “ur” most people use. From that point, it was prounounced that way. Even more pronounced is that of hockey player Walt Tkachuk. In his early career, his team announced his name was pronounced “Tay-chuck.” Later, he let it be known that it had always been prounounced “Ka-CHOOK.” Sports shows immediately changed to meet his wishes. > > It also works with spelling (think of Prince). > > Ultimately, if someone wishes to pronounce his name in a certain way, why should someone else overrule his wishes? It’s his name, after all, and if he doesn’t want to follow the rules, that’s his business. Indeed. To use a famous modern example, it is extremely impolite to not pronounce it Co-a-lin Powell despite his first name clearly being Colin. Why? Because Colin Powell says so as is his right. I may have a right to think he is a bit weird, but it would still be rude of me to insist that he is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Fionn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Fionn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fionn)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/80 "2010-11-17T12:39:06Z")
My grandfather grew up in New York City and anglicized the pronunciation of his last name at the recommendation of an Anglo teacher, even though it made his father angry. He met my grandmother during World War II and stayed in the Houston area. My father and brothers didn’t grow up around Italian speakers and he refused to teach them, so they didn’t realize they were using an Anglicized pronunciation. If my mom hadn’t worked with an Italian doctor and learned how it would be pronounced, I wouldn’t have known either. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660.md?page=5)