# Why are Italian-American names so badly mispronounced, even by their owners? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 22, 2005, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660 "2005-03-22T00:49:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![LH75](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lh75/32/4438_2.png) [@LH75](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LH75)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/81 "2010-11-17T13:18:16Z")
My wife’s maiden name is French. The members of her own immediate family seem to pronounce it differently The ending of the surname is bois. My wife pronounces it as rhyming with choice. My brother in law pronounces it with no ending s, as in boy. My sister in law pronounces it boys. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/82 "2010-11-17T15:08:38Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > That is an extreme opinion. My opinion is that one does not own one’s name and that most names have standard pronunciations just like other words. If you go around writing your name “Bill” but insist on pronouncing it “Jim”, that’s wrong. But then your pronunciation has no rhyme or reason to it at all. “Tagliani” spelled “Tag-lee-AHN-ee” at least is phonetic, whereas “Bill” pronounced “Jim” is neither true to the original usage or a logical extrapolation from the spelling. Pronunciations change, sometimes for good reasons. Sometimes it happen to mathc spelling - “Zebra” was once pronounced “zebber” but in the late 19th century they started using the modern, and more logical, pronunciations of “Zee-bra” and “zeb-ra,” depending where you live. Sometimes they change just to make it easier, like know “knight” changed from something approximating “k-ni-ggt” to “nite,” which is less phonetically logical but at least you don’t sound like you’re choking. I don’t see why there’s anything wrong with names adopting local pronounciation. Most languages do this, not just English. If the owner of the name’s fine with it, I have no reason to complain. Names change. Hell, my name is “Jones,” and it’s very unlikely it was originally pronounced that way; it was probably closer to “John’s” when it first popped up around the 12th century. > [@](#): > > Similarly, in California, native speakers of English pronounce the place names “San Pedro” as “San Pee-dro”, “San Jose” as “Sanozay”, and “San Rafael” as “San Rafel”. Well, sure, and Baltimore speakers have been know to call their city “Ballimer,” many Bostonians call their city “Bastin,” and Ontarians usually call Toronto “Turranha.” Someone from elsewhere calling them “Baltimore,” “Boston” and “Toronto” isn’t WRONG, they just don’t have the same local accent. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/83 "2010-11-17T15:38:26Z")
I think this is an important point. You shouldn’t have to seek confirmation individually from every person in order to ascertain “correct” pronunciation. That individual’s personal pronunciation choice is _a_ correct pronunciation, but so is any other widely recognized, standard pronunciation of that sequence of letters, including any variations in accents. You can’t force everyone else to speak in your accent in order to say your name correctly. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/84 "2010-11-17T15:47:42Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > You shouldn’t have to seek confirmation individually from every person in order to ascertain “correct” pronunciation. Why not? A personal name _isn’t_ an ordinary word, a “sequence of letters.” It belongs _entirely_ to the person bearing it. People can unilaterally change their own names. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/85 "2010-11-17T15:54:40Z")
> [@Kegg](#): > > I went to school with a girl with the name Benoit, which we pronounced Ben-OIT. > One day we had a supply teacher who pronounced it Ben-WAH. The girl said that is the way it should be pronounded, but that everone said Ben-OIT so they just went along with it . > > * * * Yabbut (this whole thread is yabbuts) I work with a Benoit (a Louisianan) who is a BEN-wah. French doesn’t have stressed syllables, so you just put them wherever. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/86 "2010-11-17T15:55:42Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > The speaker always is right when it comes to pronuciation and spelling of his own name. Except when he’s daft. Like a certain Ohio congressman, Pat Tiberi, who pronounces his last name Tea-berry. That’s just wrong. The good thing is that when he spouts some evasive crap, we think of it as the Tea-berry shuffle\*. \*ancient ad reference. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/87 "2010-11-17T15:58:14Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Why not? > > A personal name _isn’t_ an ordinary word, a “sequence of letters.” It belongs _entirely_ to the person bearing it. People can unilaterally change their own names. Actually, it is just like any other word. It’s a noun. A name for something. In this case, an indivdidual person. The only reason it exists is for the convenience of other people. Because the number of names you will encounter in your life will exceed by magnitudes the number of people you will ever meet in person to hear them say their names for you. And your name will live on in records after your death far longer than you will have lived and no one will be able to ask you to pronounce it. Additionally, no individual has veto power over _other people’s speech_. You can pronounce however you want, but if the tide of culture and history pushes pronunciation in a different direction, you’re just SOL. For example, it is likely that Stevenson believed that his character Henry Jekyll’s name was pronunced /dʒikəl/ (JEE-kull), but history and society and all kinds of things that Stevenson couldn’t control have made the standard accepted pronunciation /dʒɛkəl/ (JEK-ull). It’s the same way with actual people’s names. Is there anyone alive who pronounces Jesus’s name exactly as he would have? Or Julius Caesar’s? Or Christopher Columbus’s? Ultimately, pronunciation belongs to the person doing the pronouncing. Not to the person who thinks he owns the word that’s being pronounced, and there is no good reason to make personal names an exception where people’s speech is controlled by individual tyrants. A name is primarily for _other_ people to use when referring to you, so it’s up to them exactly how they want to use it. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/88 "2010-11-17T16:18:19Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Because the number of names you will encounter in your life will exceed by magnitudes the number of people you will ever meet in person to hear them say their names for you. Sure, but that’s just incomplete information. Suppose you meet someone whose name you have seen written before that. In the face-to-face personal introduction, they pronounce their own name differently from your previous guess or assumption. What do you do? Call them a “tyrant” and go on addressing them with your own version? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/89 "2010-11-17T16:31:01Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Sure, but that’s just incomplete information. Having complete information about speaking one’s own language shouldn’t depend on having to consult one particular person, whom you might or might not ever meet. Names, like and other words, have standard accepted pronunciations, which are, or should be, acceptable in all circumstances. > [@](#): > > Suppose you meet someone whose name you have seen written before that. In the face-to-face personal introduction, they pronounce their own name differently from your previous guess or assumption. > > What do you do? Call them a “tyrant” and go on addressing them with your own version? What you do in that particular instance is up to you, and, ultimately not interesting to me. It becomes a matter of a particular personal relationship rather than language. What is of interest to me is when you’re discussing that person with a third party who might or might not ever have met that person or heard him or her pronounce his name. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/90 "2010-11-17T16:43:37Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > What you do in that particular instance is up to you, and, ultimately not interesting to me. It becomes a matter of a particular personal relationship rather than language. Maybe you aren’t interested in what others do with names, but I’m asking you what _you_ would do, for the illumination of our readers. Why are you ducking the question? > [@acsenray](#): > > What is of interest to me is when you’re discussing that person with a third party who might or might not ever have met that person or heard him or her pronounce his name. I would use the named individual’s own pronunciation of their own name, of course, provided I knew it–and perhaps to the limits of my ability to replicate that pronunciation. If I hadn’t heard it at all, I’d have to use my best guess. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/91 "2010-11-17T16:48:31Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Maybe you aren’t interested in what others do with names, but I’m asking you what _you_ would do, for the illumination of our readers. Why are you ducking the question? As I said, it becomes a matter of a personal relationship rather than language usage, and it’s irrelevant to the point I’m making. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/92 "2010-11-17T17:00:30Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > As I said, it becomes a matter of a personal relationship rather than language usage, and it’s irrelevant to the point I’m making. There is no distinction in this example. Addressing a person by name is an element of personal relations in the form of language, or language applied to the task of personal relations. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/93 "2010-11-17T17:04:25Z")
Your example is one in which considerations of personal relationship supersede consideration of language usage. Not all rules apply all the time equally. I decline to address that circumstance. ---
**Author:** ![runcible\_spoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9fc29f/32.png) [@runcible\_spoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runcible_spoon)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/94 "2010-11-17T18:34:50Z")
Not to derail y’all, but I suspect [there are limits to how one pronounces one’s name.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNoS2BU6bbQ&feature=fvw) ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/95 "2010-11-17T18:41:40Z")
> [@runcible\_spoon](#): > > Not to derail y’all, but I suspect [there are limits to how one pronounces one’s name.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNoS2BU6bbQ&feature=fvw) Indeed there are. He’s not _pronouncing_ it there, is he? ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/96 "2010-11-17T20:50:04Z")
How about Seattle Mariners General Manager, Jack Zduriencik? It seems to be pronounced zu-REN-sik. Professional wrestler Vern Gagne vs. professional baseball player Eric Gagne. One’s pronounced GAG-nee and the other Gon-ya (can’t recall which is which). Kid I grew up with had the last name Fluegge, and pronounced if “FLEE-gee” (with a hard “g”), and would get angry if you pronounced it “FLOO-gee”. But there’s a dentist in my current town with the same name, who pronounces it “FLOO-gee”. ---
**Author:** ![rmw7380](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ba8739/32.png) [@rmw7380](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rmw7380)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2022, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/97 "2022-10-01T00:36:31Z")
Italian is always spelt as it’s written, except for a dozen or so rules. So, if it’s not pronounced as it is said and the rules aren’t being applied, then the word is either misspelt or mispronounced. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2022, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/98 "2022-10-01T01:13:39Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > Jack Zduriencik? It seems to be pronounced zu-REN-sik. I’m 12 years too late, but it would be pronounced, as spelled, something like “zdoo-RYEN-cheek” or “zdoo-ree-EN-cheek.” I’m not a Polish authority, but I’m reasonable with my pronunciations. It’s not a surname I recognize, and Googling it makes it seem quite rare. At any rate, there’s not really silent consonants in Polish (though there may be digraphs, like in sz, cz, rz. ch and probably others I’m forgetting off the top of my head.) It kind of irritates me a little bit. Yesterday afternoon, I was walking around at a nature park on the southwest outskirts of Chicago (Little Red Schoolhouse, for those in the area), and they had various placards with flora and fauna and their names in English, Spanish, and Polish. I had some issue with the Spanish pronunciations, but some of the Polish ones were just way off. Flower is kwiat in Polish. The sign said it was pronounced “FEE-aht.” It’s actually pronounced “KFYAHT” (/kfjat/ in IPA). One syllable, and with a leading “K” sound. “FEE-aht” would mean absolutely nothing to me other than an Italian car (or old school Soviet-era Polish car) if you uttered it to me saying it was a Polish word. I would need heavy context to figure it out. Now, I understand “K” to “F” is not a usual start to a word in English (we have that sound pair in “backfire,” though.) I could understand if you wanted to write it out as “kuh-FEE-aht.” That’s getting somewhat closer and I’d probably get it without context, but it should be one syllable with an initial “k.” It’s important, people! Why are you dropping entire consonants from the pronunciation? There were quibbles I had with other approximations in English, but that was the most egregious one. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2022, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/99 "2022-10-01T09:18:50Z")
> [@EmeraldGrue](#): > > > [@Kegg](#): > > > > I went to school with a girl with the name Benoit, which we pronounced Ben-OIT. > > Heh. Same thing happened with a fellow in my school surnamed Charron, which ought to have been “Sha-ronh”, but everyone pronounced “Chairin’”. And in the Maritimes, what’s Presqu’ile or “Pres-keel” on one side of the border is a twangy “Pres-ky-ull” on the other. There’s a park near me, a peninsula named “Presqu’île Provincial Park”. I call it “almost French for almost an island”. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2022, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/100 "2022-10-01T16:17:28Z")
> [@rmw7380](#): > > Italian is always spelt as it’s written, except for a dozen or so rules. > So, if it’s not pronounced as it is said and the rules aren’t being applied, then the word is either misspelt or mispronounced. There are regional accents, though. The hotel I stayed at in Venice was near the Pont d’Angelo - but was pronounced locally d’an-zho-lo and a few maps even spelled it with the “zh”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660.md?page=6)