# Why are Italian-American names so badly mispronounced, even by their owners? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 22, 2005, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660 "2005-03-22T00:49:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2022, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/101 "2022-10-01T16:25:31Z")
Almost every hill in Italy had its own dialect when most Italians immigrated to the US. So the same word could easily have a dozen of more pronunciations. In the NY/NJ area a lot of the these odder pronunciations are what took hold. * * * * * * My name should have a rolling R and an A sound closer to the short _a_ sound in father. We have a _chi_ at the end that is and should sound like _key_. But we have 2nd cousins where the _chi_ sounds like _chee_ and the _a_ sounds like _ann_. No one I’ve met in person says our last name as is proper back in Italia. ---
**Author:** ![themapleleaf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/themapleleaf/32/14349_2.png) [@themapleleaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/themapleleaf)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2022, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/102 "2022-10-01T18:28:21Z")
> [@Barbarian](#): > > If you think Americans mangle italian names, try 'em out on french surnames. My wife’s last name is Gauthier, pronounced Gotyay, but Americans cannot say anything except Goth-yeer unless we really train 'em. Same goes for Berthiaume (Bair-tyoam v. Ber-thoom) and Paquette (Pack-ett v. Pocket). Heck, there are people in the maritime provinces who pronounce Paquette as ‘pocket’. I remember watching “Flags of Our Fathers”, a film about Marines connected with the flag raising at Iwo Jima; one of the Marines was René Gagnon and he had French-Canadian parents. In French, his name would be pronounced “Re-NAY Gah-NYOAN”, but everyone was saying “Renny GAN-yon”. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2022, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/103 "2022-10-01T18:32:23Z")
Speaking of French names, the name “Beauchamp” is a common name both in Quebec and in Louisiana. The way Americans pronounce it has me cringing. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2022, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/104 "2022-10-01T18:46:07Z")
Is it worse than the way the English pronounce it? “Beauchamp” is one of a bunch of Norman French names held by English nobility that the English have peculiar pronunciations for. ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2022, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/105 "2022-10-01T19:36:23Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > How many German, Slavic, Spanish, Hungarian, etc., names get pronounced like in the original language? My mother’s Hungarian maiden name ends with ‘bor.’ It was usually pronounced ‘bar’ or ‘ber’ by anglos. One of her brothers actually changed his name legally to the ‘bar’ ending because that’s how the army spelled it when he enlisted. It was his first government record (he was 17), and everything just descended from that. It was easier for him to change the spelling of his name than to get all his government records corrected. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2022, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/106 "2022-10-01T20:05:54Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > How many German, Slavic, Spanish, Hungarian, etc., names get pronounced like in the original language? Heck, my Hungarian-American father and his Hungarian-American brother didn’t even pronounce our last name the same way (emphasis on different syllables.) And neither they nor their siblings pronounced it the same way my Hungarian-born grandparents pronounced it - which was nowhere near the way it was spelled. ---
**Author:** ![LH75](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lh75/32/4438_2.png) [@LH75](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LH75)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2022, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/107 "2022-10-02T02:11:50Z")
My wife is of French extraction. Her maiden name ends in -bois. Strict French pronunciation, as near as I can determine, is pronounced as -bwa. Her family can not even settle on a pronunciation. When I met her, she pronounced it as -boyce. Her younger sister pronounces it as -boys. Her younger brother pronounces it as -boy ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2022, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/108 "2022-10-02T02:16:44Z")
Between my siblings we have three different SPELLINGS of our last name. And according to people from the European country that colonized our country and bequeathed us our names, none of us pronounce it remotely correctly. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2022, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/109 "2022-10-02T02:20:23Z")
I used to work with two brothers who pronounced their last name differently. ---
**Author:** ![zimaane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a3d4f5/32.png) [@zimaane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zimaane)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2022, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/110 "2022-10-02T04:20:33Z")
The English name Beecham is derived from bad pronunciation of Beauchamp. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2022, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/111 "2022-10-02T06:19:49Z")
> [@themapleleaf](#): > > I remember watching “Flags of Our Fathers”, a film about Marines connected with the flag raising at Iwo Jima; one of the Marines was René Gagnon and he had French-Canadian parents. In French, his name would be pronounced “Re-NAY Gah-NYOAN”, but everyone was saying “Renny GAN-yon”. If I recall my high school French… Technically, I would think it would be “gan-yoh”. Unless you were saying it in French followed by a word starting with a vowel. A masculine object is _bon_ (good) as le bon Dieu (luh boh Dy-uh) (the good God) while _bonne_ is feminine - une bonne fille (euhn bunn fee-yuh) (good girl). Pronouncing the final consonant (because there is an “e” following) is an indicator of feminine, and I was told that to French speakers, saying the wrong gender grates as much as mixing up singular and plural forms grates on the Engilshes, that we is. You would say the name with a vowel following as such: Gagnon a me dit… (gan yoh-na muh dee). (Gagnon told to me…) Proper Parisian French tends to drop the final consonant except in that circumstance - I forget the name for it. You think English is hard to learn… But then, areas of France like any other country have regional accents. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2022, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/112 "2022-10-02T08:04:10Z")
> [@zimaane](#): > > The English name Beecham is derived from bad pronunciation of Beauchamp. I am talking about the Anglo-Norman name Beauchamp, held by several prominent English nobles, such as the Earls and Dukes of Warwick. I think you will find that the American pronunciation follows from the English pronunciation. And when it comes to Norman French words, I think it might be fair to say that the modern French pronunciation is just as divergent from the original as the modern English pronunciation is. At this point you’re talking about words and names that have been English words and names for 1,000 years. I don’t think the modern French pronunciation can be fairly labeled _the correct_ one. The name is borrowed from 11th century Norman French, not 21st century Standard French. Would you correct the modern English pronunciations of _government_ and _parliament_ based on modern standard French pronunciation? ---
**Author:** ![zimaane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a3d4f5/32.png) [@zimaane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zimaane)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2022, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/113 "2022-10-02T17:37:36Z")
It would be Gagnon m’a dit… Prononciation of the normally silent consonant if the the following word begins with a vowel is called the liasion. Depending on the context, it is either obligatory, optional, or forbidden, and even native speakers will disagree about some cases. ---
**Author:** ![zimaane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a3d4f5/32.png) [@zimaane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zimaane)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2022, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/114 "2022-10-02T17:40:13Z")
i was being a bit tongue in cheek by saying “bad” pronunciation. I don’t know how Beauchamp was said in the middle ages, but I’d guess that it’s a long way from Beecham. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2022, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/115 "2022-10-02T18:03:53Z")
> [@zimaane](#): > > I don’t know how Beauchamp was said in the middle ages, but I’d guess that it’s a long way from Beecham. I’m no expert either, but I should think it likely that the modern Standard French pronunciation is also a long way from the mediaeval Norman French pronunciation. We are talking 1,000 years here, and we know that French pronunciation has changed _a lot_ in that time. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2022, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/116 "2022-10-02T18:40:05Z")
Indeed - we see that in English words borrowed from the French - twice. Guarrentee and warrenty, Guardian and warden, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2022, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/117 "2022-10-02T19:02:27Z")
Even three times— captain, chief, and chef. ---
**Author:** ![themapleleaf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/themapleleaf/32/14349_2.png) [@themapleleaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/themapleleaf)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2022, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/118 "2022-10-02T22:37:56Z")
> [@md-2000](#): > > > [@themapleleaf](#): > > > > I remember watching “Flags of Our Fathers”, a film about Marines connected with the flag raising at Iwo Jima; one of the Marines was René Gagnon and he had French-Canadian parents. In French, his name would be pronounced “Re-NAY Gah-NYOAN”, but everyone was saying “Renny GAN-yon”. > > If I recall my high school French… > > Technically, I would think it would be “gan-yoh”. Unless you were saying it in French followed by a word starting with a vowel. Yes, but there’s still a bit of an “N” there. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2022, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/119 "2022-10-02T22:54:22Z")
Thanks - I didn’t know about that set (though chef and chief are pretty obvious) ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2022, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660/120 "2022-10-06T18:43:08Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > > [@zimaane](#): > > > > I don’t know how Beauchamp was said in the middle ages, but I’d guess that it’s a long way from Beecham. > > I’m no expert either, but I should think it likely that the modern Standard French pronunciation is also a long way from the mediaeval Norman French pronunciation. We are talking 1,000 years here, and we know that French pronunciation has changed _a lot_ in that time According to some of the histories I’ve read, that’s part of the reason that the Plantagenet kings and nobles abandoned French for English - their Norman French was harsh and provincial, in the ears of their Parisian French-speaking peers. For example, Norman French kept a hard “c” that had gradually softened to “s” or “sh” in Standard French; the same word, borrowed twice from French, gave English _cauldron_ and then _chowder_. Likewise the a hard “g” became “w” in Parisian, the source of our _guarantee/warranty_ and _guard/ward_ doublets. > [@Mighty\_Mouse](#): > > Between my siblings we have three different SPELLINGS of our last name. It’s not just non-British names that get mixed up, either. My own surname is a very common, four-letter Scottish-English name that’s perfectly comprehensible to any native English speaker. Yet in the 200 years of records we have on my family, it’s been spelled five different ways. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-italian-american-names-so-badly-mispronounced-even-by-their-owners/295660.md?page=7)