# Why are Japanese WWII War Crimes so "off the radar" in N. American Pop History? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 16, 2007, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-japanese-wwii-war-crimes-so-off-the-radar-in-n-american-pop-history/400290 "2007-04-16T02:46:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-japanese-wwii-war-crimes-so-off-the-radar-in-n-american-pop-history/400290/81 "2007-04-18T05:28:33Z")
[QUOTE=Sleel] Some of the excuses given for the Nanking massacre were that Matsui was ill, was not physically present in the area, and his authority was possibly undermined by the presence of prince Asaka, Hirohito’s uncle. However, no real attempt was made by either Matsui or Asaka to stop the atrocities until news began to leak out and be reported in the outside world, and an organized effort to screen mail and non-Chinese leaving the region for photographic or written evidence of what was happening. [/QUOTE] Edward L. Dreyer in China at War, 1901-1949 ( 1995, Longman Group Limited ), claims that Matsui was indeed out of the command loop at that point and had no involvement. He pins responsibility instead on Asaka, his fellow Lieutenant-Generals, Yanagawa Heisuke and Nakajima Kesago and Major-General Suzuki Teiichi. And he states flat-out that the troops were egged on in an attempt to intimidate Chiang and his government to come to terms. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-japanese-wwii-war-crimes-so-off-the-radar-in-n-american-pop-history/400290/82 "2007-04-18T06:12:24Z")
[QUOTE=Shamozzle] **Why are Japanese WWII War Crimes so “off the radar” in N. American Pop History?** [/QUOTE] A more important question is, why are they off the radar in **Japanese** pop history? I mean, the Germans have had no problem acknowledging **their** war-guilt, and have become a more humane and civilized nation as a result. ---
**Author:** ![Shamozzle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shamozzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shamozzle)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-japanese-wwii-war-crimes-so-off-the-radar-in-n-american-pop-history/400290/83 "2007-04-18T06:18:39Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] A more important question is, why are they off the radar in **Japanese** pop history? I mean, the Germans have had no problem acknowledging **their** war-guilt, and have become a more humane and civilized nation as a result. [/QUOTE] Yes, certainly. I did actually ask that earlier but I think that slipped under the radar as well… ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-japanese-wwii-war-crimes-so-off-the-radar-in-n-american-pop-history/400290/84 "2007-04-18T06:39:36Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] A more important question is, why are they off the radar in **Japanese** pop history? [/QUOTE] **BrainGlutton** , I’m going to tackle some of the reasons I see for this. Some caveats, first: I may be wrong, and I imagine that our Dopers from Japan will have a better handle on things than I do. I think, first and foremost, is that it’s nearly impossible to overstate the effect of the reverence certain segments of the Japanese population have for the idea of a military aristocracy. As others have pointed out, the far right wing of the Japanese political spectrum have invested staggering amounts of political capital into what appears to many Westerners as nearly ancestor worship of all their famous military service members. While the deniers that other posters have mentioned are infuriating, I think that the most illustrative act is/was the inclusion of Togo and several other executed war criminals into the [Yasukuni Shrine](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasukuni_Shrine). Adding to the problem is that while this faction of the Japanese government is claimed (With justification, I believe.) to be not completely representative of the Japanese population’s attitudes as a whole, it has had a signifigant effect on the design and approval of texts for teaching history in the Japanese schools. Which then leaves many Japanese people without a specific interest in history with a somewhat skewed view of their own history.\* But that’s only some of the mechanisms for why war crime denial is such a strong aspect in Japanese culture. It doesn’t offer a real answer for why these groups feel so strongly about keeping their history ‘pure.’ I _think_ that part of it is due to how Japan reacted to being opened to the west, going back to at least the Meiji era, and earlier. For a number of reasons the Japanese government and social institutions invested a lot of effort into fostering a self-reinforcing idea that Japanese people are special, and that their unique instutions are better than those of the rest of the world - even in the face of some daunting examples of foreign prowess. Though I’ll admit that the cause and effects there could be argued to be the reverse, too. \*I’m well aware that most nations’ elementary education, especially in the US, is going to hit the high points only, leaving a lot of ambiguity on the cutting room floor, so to speak. I am of the opinion that the Japanese example sets a local ‘high water mark’ for this sort of behavior, but it’s far from unique to Japan. ---
**Author:** ![Shamozzle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shamozzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shamozzle)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-japanese-wwii-war-crimes-so-off-the-radar-in-n-american-pop-history/400290/85 "2007-04-18T07:00:49Z")
[QUOTE=OtakuLoki] **BrainGlutton** , I’m going to tackle some of the reasons I see for this. Some caveats, first: I may be wrong, and I imagine that our Dopers from Japan will have a better handle on things than I do. I think, first and foremost, is that it’s nearly impossible to overstate the effect of the reverence certain segments of the Japanese population have for the idea of a military aristocracy. As others have pointed out, the far right wing of the Japanese political spectrum have invested staggering amounts of political capital into what appears to many Westerners as nearly ancestor worship of all their famous military service members. While the deniers that other posters have mentioned are infuriating, I think that the most illustrative act is/was the inclusion of Togo and several other executed war criminals into the [Yasukuni Shrine](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasukuni_Shrine). Adding to the problem is that while this faction of the Japanese government is claimed (With justification, I believe.) to be not completely representative of the Japanese population’s attitudes as a whole, it has had a signifigant effect on the design and approval of texts for teaching history in the Japanese schools. Which then leaves many Japanese people without a specific interest in history with a somewhat skewed view of their own history.\* But that’s only some of the mechanisms for why war crime denial is such a strong aspect in Japanese culture. It doesn’t offer a real answer for why these groups feel so strongly about keeping their history ‘pure.’ I _think_ that part of it is due to how Japan reacted to being opened to the west, going back to at least the Meiji era, and earlier. For a number of reasons the Japanese government and social institutions invested a lot of effort into fostering a self-reinforcing idea that Japanese people are special, and that their unique instutions are better than those of the rest of the world - even in the face of some daunting examples of foreign prowess. Though I’ll admit that the cause and effects there could be argued to be the reverse, too. \*I’m well aware that most nations’ elementary education, especially in the US, is going to hit the high points only, leaving a lot of ambiguity on the cutting room floor, so to speak. I am of the opinion that the Japanese example sets a local ‘high water mark’ for this sort of behavior, but it’s far from unique to Japan. [/QUOTE] Very interesting, thanks ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-japanese-wwii-war-crimes-so-off-the-radar-in-n-american-pop-history/400290/86 "2007-04-18T10:23:14Z")
My uncle was out in Burma, according to him the British were not that interested in taking prisoners - flame throwers were effective. Actually, my uncle and aunt’s generation seemed to consider the Japanese utter swine. In wartime, all parties tend to behave pretty badly, afterwards there is a tendency to re-write history. 20 years ago, in Singapore, I was told that Sing was occupied by Japanese officered, Japanese speaking, Korean raised regiments. I’ve no idea whether it is true, but it is quite convenient. One of the most touching scenes I’ve ever seen was seeing an elderly Japanese guy bowing before a war memorial in Sing. I suppose what I’m getting at is that it is possibly better not to rake over the past, since empirically people don’t seem to learn from history, maybe picking scabs is not that productive. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-japanese-wwii-war-crimes-so-off-the-radar-in-n-american-pop-history/400290/87 "2007-04-18T16:05:24Z")
Can anyone reccomend some decent books on the subject? ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-japanese-wwii-war-crimes-so-off-the-radar-in-n-american-pop-history/400290/88 "2007-04-18T16:09:51Z")
[QUOTE=Guinastasia] Can anyone reccomend some decent books on the subject? [/QUOTE] [The Rape of Nanking](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rape_of_Nanking_(book)), by Iris Chang. While scholarly and well-supported, it is one harrowing read. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-japanese-wwii-war-crimes-so-off-the-radar-in-n-american-pop-history/400290/89 "2007-04-18T16:15:50Z")
[QUOTE=OneCentStamp] [The Rape of Nanking](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rape_of_Nanking_(book)), by Iris Chang. While scholarly and well-supported, it is one harrowing read. [/QUOTE] Yes, I read that awhile ago-I probably should have mentioned it. Very disturbing. :smack: Thank you, though-I appreciate it. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-japanese-wwii-war-crimes-so-off-the-radar-in-n-american-pop-history/400290/90 "2007-04-18T16:46:02Z")
[QUOTE=OneCentStamp] [The Rape of Nanking](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rape_of_Nanking_(book)), by Iris Chang. While scholarly and well-supported, it is one harrowing read. [/QUOTE] But please note **China Guy** ’s post above on Chang and her book. Chang’s work has it’s share of detractors - so for example David Askew rather acerbic comment: _The first major monograph on Nanjing to be published in English after Hsū was the problematic work by Iris Chang (1997), The Rape of Nanking, a work that can only be described as frequently fabricated and/or fictitious._ From this article: [ejcjs - The Nanjing Incident: Recent Research and Trends](http://www.japanesestudies.org.uk/articles/Askew.html) - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-japanese-wwii-war-crimes-so-off-the-radar-in-n-american-pop-history/400290/91 "2007-04-19T04:12:45Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] A more important question is, why are they off the radar in **Japanese** pop history? I mean, the Germans have had no problem acknowledging **their** war-guilt, and have become a more humane and civilized nation as a result. [/QUOTE] Well, there are a number of people who are quite willing to harass and attack anyone who tries to bring up the subject. This morning’s Mainichi News: [Activist nabbed for hurling Molotov cocktail at newspaper headquarters](http://mdn.mainichi-msn.co.jp/national/news/20070418p2a00m0na020000c.html) > [@](#): > > A right-wing activist who hurled an unlit Molotov cocktail at the Tokyo headquarters of the Nihon Keizai Shimbun economic daily after it published an article on Yasukuni Shine and the class-A war criminals enshrined there was arrested Thursday, police said. > > … > > Investigators said Hiraoka’s actions came a day after the paper published an article reporting that Emperor Showa had expressed discomfort over the enshrinement of class-A war criminals at Yasukuni. > > “I decided to warn them over the report,” police quoted Hiraoka as saying. And this is not really an isolated incident. [Ultra-rightist tilt posing clear, present danger to free speech](http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20070117f1.html) Japan Times, Jan 17, 2007 (may require registration) > [@](#): > > When ruling party lawmaker Koichi Kato criticized Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi’s annual visits to Yasukuni Shrine, retribution from the rightwing was swift: An extremist set his house on fire and tried to commit ritual suicide. > > … > > Outspoken independent lawmaker Makiko Tanaka last year received a string of threatening phone calls for her criticism of the ruling party. A leading paper reported that Emperor Hirohito, known posthumously as Showa, opposed honoring war criminals at Yasukuni – and a firebomb was thrown at the paper’s entrance. ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-japanese-wwii-war-crimes-so-off-the-radar-in-n-american-pop-history/400290/92 "2007-04-19T04:15:18Z")
My apologies, the Mainichi article was about the arrest. The actual bomb-throwing took place last year, and is the same incident referenced in the Japan Times article. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-japanese-wwii-war-crimes-so-off-the-radar-in-n-american-pop-history/400290/93 "2007-04-19T14:08:32Z")
I think what **Tom** says is right on. There is a difference between planned systematic evil and local spontaneous evil. As noted by other posters, while Hirohito was made aware of the various atrocities, and probably should have been made responsible for that, there is a difference between planning things and going along with them. Hence, I can’t agree with **ralph124’s** claim that that Hirohito and Hitler were equally guilty. For the question concerning Japan’s perception of it’s guilt, there are a number of factors which must be considered. As noted above, MaCarthur made a choice of keeping the emperor in place to better control the country. That’s a huge topic in and of itself, so I’m going to not go into the merit and demerits here. However, as a direct consequence, there is a lessened sense of personal responsibility for the war. Hell, if the emperor was mislead by the government and the generals, then what could the average Joe have done? This wasn’t the primary consideration for the American occupation force, but this was result of American policy. No one wants to take responsibility for horrible things, and anyone would take the chance to run away. Again, that doesn’t excuse people, but if I were in the same circumstance, I could see how I would take the same out. ---
**Author:** ![Grossbottom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ba8739/32.png) [@Grossbottom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grossbottom)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-japanese-wwii-war-crimes-so-off-the-radar-in-n-american-pop-history/400290/94 "2007-04-19T21:28:26Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] I mean, the Germans have had no problem acknowledging their war-guilt, and have become a more humane and civilized nation as a result. [/QUOTE] I’d be interested in a cite for a substantial, tangible and measurable benefit that has been indisputedly derived by Germany as a direct result of their acknowledgment of their “war-guilt,” whatever that is. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-japanese-wwii-war-crimes-so-off-the-radar-in-n-american-pop-history/400290/95 "2007-04-20T18:20:09Z")
[QUOTE=TokyoPlayer] I think what **Tom** says is right on. There is a difference between planned systematic evil and local spontaneous evil. As noted by other posters, while Hirohito was made aware of the various atrocities, and probably should have been made responsible for that, there is a difference between planning things and going along with them. Hence, I can’t agree with **ralph124’s** claim that that Hirohito and Hitler were equally guilty. For the question concerning Japan’s perception of it’s guilt, there are a number of factors which must be considered. As noted above, MaCarthur made a choice of keeping the emperor in place to better control the country. That’s a huge topic in and of itself, so I’m going to not go into the merit and demerits here. However, as a direct consequence, there is a lessened sense of personal responsibility for the war. Hell, if the emperor was mislead by the government and the generals, then what could the average Joe have done? This wasn’t the primary consideration for the American occupation force, but this was result of American policy. No one wants to take responsibility for horrible things, and anyone would take the chance to run away. Again, that doesn’t excuse people, but if I were in the same circumstance, I could see how I would take the same out. [/QUOTE] Hirohito was chief of state of Japan. Any and all military decisions had to be approved by him. Fortunately for his post-war reputation, most of the transcripts of the meetings of the Army and navy (with the Imperial staff) were destroyed. Could Hirohito have done anything? Yes-had he any strong revulsion (toward the massacres in China) he could have resigned and brought the government down. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-japanese-wwii-war-crimes-so-off-the-radar-in-n-american-pop-history/400290/96 "2007-04-20T20:12:51Z")
[QUOTE=ralph124c] Hirohito was chief of state of Japan. Any and all military decisions had to be approved by him. Fortunately for his post-war reputation, most of the transcripts of the meetings of the Army and navy (with the Imperial staff) were destroyed. Could Hirohito have done anything? Yes-had he any strong revulsion (toward the massacres in China) he could have resigned and brought the government down. [/QUOTE] Emperor Hirohito was, as you said, head of state, but he wasn’t the head of government. While he did have influence in the making of decisions, and probably knew (and didn’t care much) about some of the atrocities the Japanese Army commited, the Showa Emperor didn’t micromanage every element of the war. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2007, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-japanese-wwii-war-crimes-so-off-the-radar-in-n-american-pop-history/400290/97 "2007-04-22T03:23:20Z")
The main problem I see with Japan refusing to recognize their actions in the past is the old “those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-japanese-wwii-war-crimes-so-off-the-radar-in-n-american-pop-history/400290.md?page=4)