# Why are Jewish people so disproportionately successful **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 14, 2013, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027 "2013-06-14T21:55:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/21 "2013-06-15T00:50:56Z")
Don’t forget Jewish mothers. Seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/22 "2013-06-15T00:54:43Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > Additionally, your figures only represent wealth. That is relevant because there is [no real correlation](http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=3178567&page=1#.Ubu7AflvNh4) between wealth and IQ. So the fact that Jews have an IQ on average of about 115 doesn’t explain why they are wealthier if there is no connection between the two. ---
**Author:** ![Randvek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@Randvek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randvek)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/23 "2013-06-15T01:24:51Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > That is relevant because there is [no real correlation](http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=3178567&page=1#.Ubu7AflvNh4) between wealth and IQ. MENSA likes to point out that it has both billionaires and welfare recipients in its membership rolls. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/24 "2013-06-15T01:29:08Z")
It seems to me that rather than asking this about “Jews” we perhaps should be asking this in regards to “American Jews”. Certainly, Israel has lots of Jews who are poor and not terribly successful. ---
**Author:** ![user\_hostile](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/user_hostile/32/474_2.png) [@user\_hostile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/user_hostile)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/25 "2013-06-15T01:45:03Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Asia proper (Russia, China, India, etc) isa 60% of the human race. So there are going to be Asians in that list. > > I don’t know what % of the Forbes 100 are Jewish. Looking at that list Soros, both Koch, Ellison, Bloomberg, Bettencourt, Paulson, etc. all seem to be jewish, I think. > > Considering that jews make up only 0.2% of global population, that is a pretty impressive list and I’m guessing 10-20 of the top 100 are Jewish. However most billionaires seem to come from OECD nations, and Jews tend to disproportionately live in those nations too. > > [Forbes ranking: The world’s richest Jews | The Jerusalem Post](http://www.jpost.com/Business/Business-Features/Forbes-ranking-The-worlds-richest-Jews-310104) > > 0.2% of the global population and 11.5% of all billionaires. Pretty impressive numbers. I don’t believe the Kochs are Jewish. Haven’t been able to Google-fu a cite. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/26 "2013-06-15T01:51:42Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > We don’t proselytize. In fact, Judaism actively discourages conversions. As I mentioned there are several reasons for the low numbers including what you mentioned. But 15 million Jews worldwide is really, really low. Even putting aside all the difficult circumstances Jews have faced, just standard population growth would likely lead to higher numbers than that. According to one historian, Jews accounted for 10% of the population of the Roman empire. It wasn’t just war, disease, and isolation that accounted for the low modern numbers. To quote an [article](http://www.slate.com/articles/life/faithbased/2012/11/the_myth_of_jewish_literacy_maristella_botticini_and_zvi_eckstein_explain.html) about Maristella Botticini and Zvi Eckstein authors of The Chosen Few: > [@](#): > > All of this history is widely known and understood, but what Botticini and Eckstein do differently is trace this development alongside the size of the Jewish population and their occupational distribution. The Jewish global population shrunk from at least 5 million to as little as 1 million between the year 70 and 650. It’s not surprising that a conquered people, stifled rebellions, and loss of home would lead to population shrinkage, but Botticini and Eckstein argue that “War-related massacres and the general decline in the population accounted for about half of this loss.” Where did the remaining 2 million out of 3 million surviving Jews go? According to them, over multiple generations they simply stopped being Jewish: With the notion of Jewish identity now tied directly to literacy by the surviving Pharisaic rabbis of the Talmud, raising one’s children as Jews required a substantial investment in Jewish education. To be able to justify that investment, one had to be either or both an especially devoted Jew or someone hoping to find a profession for his children where literacy was an advantage, like trade, crafts, and money lending. For those not especially devoted and having little hope of seeing their children derive economic benefit from a Jewish education, the option to simply leave the Jewish community, the economists argue, was more enticing than the option to remain as its unlettered masses. Two-thirds of the surviving Jewish population, they assert, took that route. And you can even see it today. While plenty of people of Jewish ancestry are still religious, many (most that I know) are not. They probably won’t make their kids go to Hebrew school, aren’t culturally Jewish, and may not even marry a fellow Jew. I doubt 30 years from now, all of the Jewish exceptionalism we see today will be much of a factor given the cultural expectations are fading more and more each day. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/27 "2013-06-15T01:53:26Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > It seems to me that rather than asking this about “Jews” we perhaps should be asking this in regards to “American Jews”. > > Certainly, Israel has lots of Jews who are poor and not terribly successful. A disproportionate number of Russian billionaires and oligarchs tend to be Jewish too. But yes, per capita the nation of Israel is not much more impressive than any other western nation, from what I can see. > **[The richer they come ...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/jul/02/russia.lukeharding1)** > > Can Russia's oligarchs keep their billions - and their freedom? By Luke Harding. > [@](#): > > And in a country where anti-semitism is still rife and openly expressed, nationalist rabble-rousers have made much of the fact that of the seven oligarchs who controlled 50% of Russia’s economy during the 1990s, six were Jewish: Berezovsky, Vladimir Guzinsky, Alexander Smolensky, Mikhail Khodorkovsky, Mikhail Friedman and Valery Malkin. That fact is incontestable - but it is the result not of some grand conspiracy, but of the way the Soviet Union restricted Jews’ ability to assimilate and rise up in society. While ethnic Slavs dominated all the best career slots in the highly bureaucratised official society, Jews who wanted to get ahead were forced into the black market economy. When communism collapsed and the black market was legalised as free market capitalism, the Jewish entrepreneurs had a head start. Perhaps due to genetics and culture, because Jews have been forced to survive and thrive at the fringes of society they have developed certain cognitive talents that can be translated into success in the business and social world. I didn’t mention that in the OP, but that could be a major ingredient. And by ‘genetics’ I mean Jews who are genetically prone to the skillset necessary to survive and function on the outskirts of society would have more kids than Jewish people who didn’t. The end result of that is a group of people who are better at rising to the tops of business and politics since their history has selected people and encouraged a culture of people who can navigate complex social and economic situations where they are at a disadvantage, and still come out ahead. In a way it’d be like taking a group of people who have done nothing but run all their lives, then put them in a walking competition with people who have done nothing but walk. If a group learns to survive on the outskirts of the economic and social system, certain genetic and cultural traits will be passed on and you end up with a people who are better at navigating those situations to rise to the top. ---
**Author:** ![Washoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecae2f/32.png) [@Washoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Washoe)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/28 "2013-06-15T01:55:53Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > Don’t forget Jewish mothers. > > Seriously. Yeah, I can see that. Being welcome to hang in the upstairs bedroom until you’re 35 and having someone to do all your cooking and cleaning for you sure makes it a lot easier to get a doctorate. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/29 "2013-06-15T03:01:50Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > A disproportionate number of Russian billionaires and oligarchs tend to be Jewish too. But yes, per capita the nation of Israel is not much more impressive than any other western nation, from what I can see. > > [The richer they come ... | Russia | The Guardian](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/jul/02/russia.lukeharding1) > > Perhaps due to genetics and culture, because Jews have been forced to survive and thrive at the fringes of society they have developed certain cognitive talents that can be translated into success in the business and social world. I didn’t mention that in the OP, but that could be a major ingredient. And by ‘genetics’ I mean Jews who are genetically prone to the skillset necessary to survive and function on the outskirts of society would have more kids than Jewish people who didn’t. The end result of that is a group of people who are better at rising to the tops of business and politics since their history has selected people and encouraged a culture of people who can navigate complex social and economic situations where they are at a disadvantage, and still come out ahead. In a way it’d be like taking a group of people who have done nothing but run all their lives, then put them in a walking competition with people who have done nothing but walk. If a group learns to survive on the outskirts of the economic and social system, certain genetic and cultural traits will be passed on and you end up with a people who are better at navigating those situations to rise to the top. I think you should drop the _genetic_ aspect. Just saying. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/30 "2013-06-15T03:12:39Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > Don’t forget Jewish mothers. > > Seriously. Go ahead, give your fahthuh a heart attache! ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/31 "2013-06-15T03:32:04Z")
Seen _Fiddler On The Roof_? **Tradition!** ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/32 "2013-06-15T03:35:46Z")
No one’s going to mention the obvious? God like Jews better than other people. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/33 "2013-06-15T03:36:06Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Just a nitpick - I hate the term “Jewish people”. To me it seems that when it is used in place of “Jews” that’s because “Jews” somehow sounds derogatory to the speaker. Or the speaker is trying to be extra careful to not have his meaning be derailed by bullshit sensitivity. By that I mean like yours. What he said wasn’t offensive but you have qualms about his word choice because it was chosen over what you thought he should say but didn’t because he thought it would have connotations that are also not offensive but you think he or his audience thinks there are. Just my nitpick. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/34 "2013-06-15T04:08:53Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Jewish people or Jewish men? > > I wonder how Jewish Women compare to their Shiksa sisteren. Not too bad. 10% of female Senators (2 out of 20, and both of them mine) are Jewish, and 16% of female Nobel Prize winners (7 out of 44) are Jewish, not to mention 2/3 of female Supreme Court justices. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/35 "2013-06-15T04:52:52Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > …it is kinda telling that there are about 15 million Jews in the world compared to 1.2 billion Catholics, 1.6 billion Muslims, and around 900 million Hindus. Yeah, I’m going with the cutting-off-part-of-your-dick requirement as what’s holding the numbers down. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/36 "2013-06-15T05:41:05Z")
I tried to unsuccessfully to track down an article perhaps in the NYT some years ago by a successful NY Jewish man who described how his mother pushed him to succeed with incredible intensity, persistence and creativity. And, how all his friends who also became successful Jewish men had mothers doing the exact same thing. It isn’t the stereotype I’m talking about, it is the enormous investment Jewish women traditionally have made in making their sons successful, as scholars, businessmen, professionals. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/37 "2013-06-15T06:38:46Z")
In medieval times, as it is now in Islamic countries, money lending was a religious taboo. The bible forbids loaning money for a percentage of interest. This would considerably have hampered the economy, if not for the practical solution of leaving the money lending to the Jews. So there had to be one or more Jewish money lenders/bankers/goldsmiths in every town. So, while most Jews weren’t rich, many have in their extended family and circle of aquantances a Jew who _is_ rich. And as the Jews have a tradition of charity and helping each other out (maybe grudgingly, but still) that means that enterprising Jews, or Jews who need capital to pursue an expensive education, may easier get the money to do so. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/38 "2013-06-15T14:55:43Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > So, while most Jews weren’t rich, many have in their extended family and circle of aquantances a Jew who _is_ rich. And as the Jews have a tradition of charity and helping each other out (maybe grudgingly, but still) that means that enterprising Jews, or Jews who need capital to pursue an expensive education, may easier get the money to do so. Your use of the present tense here is bizarre. Was that intentional? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/39 "2013-06-15T15:26:58Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > This is an excellent question. One my instructors was Jewish and he invited me over to his family. One of his daughters showed me her coin collection and one of the coins were unrecognizable to me, it had all sorts of weird Arabic-Chinese-Claw like script on it. She noticed I was looking at the coin and she told me that it was shekel (I never saw one till then) and went on to say that Jewish people were special and she was one of god’s people. Obviously, my instructor was embarrassed and quickly ushered her upstairs, but I thought it was cute and likely a personal motivator for her. I don’t know whether my former instructor’s Jewish home is representative of how Jewish families are (I don’t know), but such homes would put out smarter kids simply due to the inertia of self-confidence and self-motivation such kids would have. Just my 2 cents. > > - Honesty I’m wondering if there is such thing as a reverse [stereotype threat](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype_threat). I have a good friend who is Jewish. She isn’t shy at all about expressing her “tribe pride”. If a Jewish wunderkind appears in the news, she gets absolutely giddy over it. She loves talking about Jewish predominance of the Noble Prize roster and the generosity of the Jewish people. She has said some things that make me go :dubious:, if I only because I never know what she wants me to say. It makes me wonder, though. If it’s irrational for a person to be self-loathing because of their group membership, is it equally irrational for a person to have high self-esteem because of it? ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/40 "2013-06-15T15:42:23Z")
The Jewish culture in no doubt a model for success. A close friend and mechanic that had worked for me and retired the same time I did had banked every paycheck though his entire career. They lived off of his wifes check and lived a simple but comfortable life. They would withdraw from savings for property investments which were always positive cash flow investments. His networth exceeded $10,000,000 when he retired from a blue collar truck mechanic job. ``` Another casual friend and fellow swapmeeter had a small bagle business. He wore one of those signs with 2 pcs of plywood connected by rope like a tent. 10 years later he owned a very successful large bagle company. The one thing they seem to have in common is that they are taught when they are young that they are special and that they deserve success. I don't know any statistics on how many Jews become attracted to chrystal meth but just from casual observation it seems to be a bit of a weakness. I have seen some young people with very promising careers fall victim to this and later fall into severe mental illness. ``` [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027.md?page=3)