# Why are Jewish people so disproportionately successful **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 14, 2013, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027 "2013-06-14T21:55:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2013, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/81 "2013-06-16T18:55:09Z")
Cite: Warning PDF [http://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/immigration-statistics/yearbook/2011/ois\_yb\_2011.pdf](http://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/immigration-statistics/yearbook/2011/ois_yb_2011.pdf) > [@](#): > > Africa … > 40,183 Immediate relatives of U.S. citizens > 23,812 Diversity > 23,523 Refugees and asylees > 7,940 Family sponsored preferences > 4,360 Employment based preferences > 556 Other > > 100,374 Total The “wealthy, educated, well-connected, employed, and/or have wanted job skills.” claim doesn’t fit the facts about who does immigrate. Yet that group still tends to outperform most other source continents. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2013, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/82 "2013-06-16T20:04:00Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Actually outside of the immigration lottery selection is more biased towards family then any other item. > > These first generation immigrants are not all arriving “rich” and educated as you claim. Please show where I said they were ALL arriving rich and educated? Since you can’t Feel free to retract your mischaracterization. > [@Malthus](#): > > This “what are Jews?” question comes up every single time Jews are discussed. > > The answer is this: Jews are neither a race nor a religion - they are a _tribe_. Well, they are certainly a religion as well. The two are not mutually exclusive. That said, I have already acknowledged that when I compared them to a selective, and self-selecting “club”. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > The “wealthy, educated, well-connected, employed, and/or have wanted job skills.” claim doesn’t fit the facts about who does immigrate. Yet that group still tends to outperform most other source continents. Your list is for naturalized citizens (AFACT), not all immigrants or people coming here. More importantly, when you look at the break down for Nigeria, the country we are talking about. You see the following: In 2011 I-94 admissions, when you exclude tourist and business travelers, were heavily skewed towards Students & Exchange visitors (7,531), and Diplomats and Other Representatives (3,458), rather than Temporary Workers and Families (3,227). Of those workers, almost 50% were HB1 visas given to workers in specialty occupations. Additionally, your list doesn’t refute my point. being brought over as a family member likely means your family has the resources to take care of additional people. Here is another cite to back my [claims](http://www.inmotionaame.org/migrations/topic.cfm;jsessionid=f830816391371378801287?migration=13&topic=4&bhcp=1): > [@](#): > > For a significant number of Africans, the United States is not their country of first migration; many have come from Europe, the Middle East, the Caribbean, and other nations in Africa. These are motivated expatriates, adaptable risk-takers always in search of better opportunities and with a wealth of experience acquired at home and in their countries of first immigration. > > Besides their “migration experience,” the most significant characteristic of the African immigrants is that they are the most educated group in the nation. Almost half have bachelor’s or advanced degrees, compared to 23 percent of native-born Americans. Contrary to popular belief, the most substantial part of African emigration is thus directly linked to the “brain drain,” not to poverty. Actually, 98 percent are high school graduates. > > Sub-Saharan nations bear the great cost of educating students who will continue their education in the West and may not return home during their most productive years. As renowned Nigerian computer scientist Philippe Emeagwali puts it: “The African education budget is nothing but a supplement to the American education budget. In essence, Africa is giving developmental assistance to the wealthier western nations which makes the rich nations richer and the poor nations poorer.” > > According to the United Nations Economic Commission for Africa and the International Organization for Migration, 27,000 African intellectuals left the continent for industrialized nations between 1960 and 1975. While 40,000 followed them from 1975 to 1984, between 1985 and 1990 the numbers skyrocketed to 60,000, and has averaged 20,000 annually ever since. It goes on but I think you get will get the point. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2013, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/83 "2013-06-16T20:19:51Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Please show where I said they were ALL arriving rich and educated? Since you can’t Feel free to retract your mischaracterization. Good miss-direction on the “all” > [@brickbacon](#): > > People in those groups **typically didn’t make it here unless** they were more intelligent and/or creative than average in the first place. They also **often** don’t get to stay here \*\*unless they are wealthy, educated, well-connected, employed, and/or have wanted job skills. \*\* In all likelihood, they will raise smart successful kids that share their values and can take advantage of their parents accumulated wealth. Not even a plurality fit your claims. So you can hand wave away that they are more successful then other groups like “Jews” but it is not a pile of super humans from Africa. Less then 10% are admitted due to economic or employment preferences so how about you retract your false claims? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2013, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/84 "2013-06-16T20:36:55Z")
Not I somehow deleted the part about the non-immigrent visa’s being meaningless, they are not counted in the “success” levels. And the rest of your “cite” shows that is is more about education, how the family units value education and their life goals then it is about any potential genetic reason. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2013, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/85 "2013-06-16T21:14:34Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Good miss-direction on the “all” It’s not a misdirection, it’s highlighting the fact that you apparently can’t read so well. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Not even a plurality fit your claims. Dude, your list doesn’t even address anything I have claimed. Is there a reason you think refugees and family members of citizens can’t be wealthy, educated, etc? You just found a chart, and decided to post it even though not at at all germane to the discussion. I get that you think since it says Africa on top, and Nigeria is in Africa, it must be relevant but it’s not. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > So you can hand wave away that they are more successful then other groups like “Jews” but it is not a pile of super humans from Africa. Less then 10% are admitted due to economic or employment preferences so how about you retract your false claims? I didn’t say they were admitted due to economic or employment preferences. Again, your reading comprehension problem rears its ugly head. Here is what I said that you seem to be getting in a huff about: [QUOTE=Me] People in those groups typically didn’t make it here unless they were more intelligent and/or creative than average in the first place. They also often don’t get to stay here unless they are wealthy, educated, well-connected, employed, and/or have wanted job skills. In all likelihood, they will raise smart successful kids that share their values and can take advantage of their parents accumulated wealth. [/QUOTE] Please show me how you parse that to mean what you are saying it does? > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Not I somehow deleted the part about the non-immigrent visa’s being meaningless, they are not counted in the “success” levels. They are the usually the pool from which many eventual citizens are chosen. More importantly, that’s the only data they have that actually addresses the question. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > And the rest of your “cite” shows that is is more about education, how the family units value education and their life goals then it is about any potential genetic reason. When did I posit a genetic reason? Are you even reading what is being said here? The cite addressed the fact that many Africans come here ALREADY having been educated. Or at least more educated relative to their peers. In many of these counties, a good education is expensive, and it a likely indicator that you are not poor by their standards. More importantly, do you really think poor, uneducated Africans can, in general, afford to get to the US, apply for citizenship, demonstrate to the government they will not be on the dole, etc.? I just went this process. It’s not cheap or easy to understand. Many people retain a lawyer to fill out forms, and often need to be physically present in the US or your country during certain parts of the process. Being able to successfully demonstrate all that in addition to having the desire and wherewithal to do it is more than enough to weed out most of those with few resources, skills, or connections. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2013, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/86 "2013-06-16T21:17:32Z")
The OP misses an obvious choice: There is a dominant subculture in elite society which is substantially Jewish, and they promote their own out of group interest. Just like WASP’s, or aristocratic clans in any number of countries. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2013, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/87 "2013-06-16T22:42:54Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > It’s not a misdirection, it’s highlighting the fact that you apparently can’t read so well. OK, you work on the obscure semi developed unsubstantiated theories on the lines of (Jews are more successful because they kick the low performers out) Ague you point with yourself I am bored with you moving the goal post for me. But you may want to consider that an H1-B conversion would be an employment consideration conversion as would the other types you indicated…still way below 10% But go ahead and play with your fake numbers while expecting absolute truth for me…It is a good way to win a debate when the facts aren’t on your side. I will stick with reality that parental expectations and involvement in education is one of the few causal forces that effect a persons educational attainment. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2013, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/88 "2013-06-16T22:56:59Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > OK, you work on the obscure semi developed unsubstantiated theories on the lines of (Jews are more successful because they kick the low performers out) I already linked to a book written by two experts documenting the evidence for such a theory and backing it up with hard evidence. You have presented a table that doesn’t even show what you think it does. If you are incapable of reading the book, or understanding the theory as presented, the fault lies with you at this point. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > But you may want to consider that an H1-B conversion would be an employment consideration conversion as would the other types you indicated…still way below 10% Which, again, doesn’t disprove anything I have said. Are you able to understand basic facts and figures? I don’t get why it’s so hard for you to actually address what is being discussed rather than just flailing about, whining about irrelevant things. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > But go ahead and play with your fake numbers while expecting absolute truth for me…It is a good way to win a debate when the facts aren’t on your side. You have presented ZERO relevant numbers. The fact that you cannot get that a table on Africa naturalization means nothing with regard to my statement is very telling. You have made it clear that you are hopelessly lost in this discussion so I don’t think anyone is missing out if you decide not to contribute more nonsense to this thread. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > I will stick with reality that parental expectations and involvement in education is one of the few causal forces that effect a persons educational attainment. And if you had been following along, you would see that I too think those things are a factor. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2013, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/89 "2013-06-16T23:49:36Z")
In the time I have I’ll try to get to a few of the points made - there is currently a high cost to being “engaged in the jewish community” but not to having a Jewish identity which _requires no engagement at all_. There was no such substantial cost for most of the past hundreds of years. For most of the time period that produced these outliers Jews were either marginalized members of society or within one or two generations of having been so. Only a very few were part of the elite. Most middle class and upper middle class Jews in America trace their heritage to poverty within one to three generations, usually one or two. It was not until the WW2 and beyond era that American Jews began to emerge as solidly middle class. Let’s just focus on the op. Again 0.2% of the world and 2% of the United States population identifies as Jewish yet orders of magitude more are present at vaious measures identified by the op. Let us accept that that number of self-identified Jews would be higher if some did not leave the pool of being so identified over the generations: converting to avoid discrimination, to help get ahead, becoming disaffected with the religion, seeing the light of another religion, marrying a non-Jewish partner and raising children without a Jewish identity, just drifting off due to the lack of membership in a synagogue, apathy, … whatever. Your hypothesis \*both \*requires that such losses selectively lose the least creative/intelligent/ambitious of the population and that the numbers so lost exceed the numbers who stay by an order of magnitude or so. Neither of which seem likely to be true. Yes Arnold is American and I am sure would state he was if asked. He might state he was born in Austria but he would not state he is an Austrian. He might state that because he is not American by birth he is not elgible to run for President but that he is 100% American. What an odd position to take! Let’s stick with the Nigerian American example. Who has been weeded out and who selected for? What are the features of the group that is in America and will those features be passed on to the next generation? Is it a group that has whatever genetic bits there are that predispose to success compared to their peers left behind (be it overall IQ, creativity, a willingness to take risks, a temperament imbued with tenacity, whatever)? Or the fact that this group shares some cultural values about the importance of education and hard work, etc.? Or both? Or do those who come to America and fail start to not call themselves Nigerian anymore? Or what? Your answer? > [@brickbacon](#): > > People in those groups typically didn’t make it here unless they were more intelligent and/or creative than average in the first place. They also often don’t get to stay here unless they are wealthy, educated, well-connected, employed, and/or have wanted job skills. In all likelihood, they will raise smart successful kids that share their values and can take advantage of their parents accumulated wealth. Okay. By what mechanism will the children of these Nigerian American be smart successful kids? (Their parents are often still poor during most of their childhood, during grad school and post docs, and early careers.) Why more so than the kids of others in the same socioeconomic groups? So Jews in Europe from Ireland to Italy over the last hundreds of years, from those living in shtetls to those fewer raised in wealthy households, mostly only stayed Jews, by your way of thinking, if they were more intelligent or creative or wealthy or successful. (Mind you I can see the decision to remain Jewish in the face of discrimination as a sign of tenacity, but not really the smartest decision, but we’ll go with it for the sake of the discussion.) And they, and children of American Jews raised in poor neighborhoods in the 20s through the 40s, were more likely then to produce children who were intelligent or creative or wealthy or successful. How? Because of the genes of those who remained or because of the environment that intelligent/creative parents provided or because of some other cultural values they passed along or how? Note that [those who argue the genetics side](http://www.economist.com/node/4032638) for Jews make pretty much the same argument you’ve made - those who were not smart in Eastern European Jewish life did not get as much of chance to make new Jews as those who were smart. You focus on the loss of the less smart, they focus on the smart ones having larger families, but same net effect. > [@](#): > > European Jews at the top of their professions in the Middle Ages raised more children to adulthood than those at the bottom. Of course, that was true of successful gentiles as well. But in the Middle Ages, success in Christian society tended to be violently aristocratic (warfare and land), rather than peacefully meritocratic (banking and trade). > > Put these two things together—a correlation of intelligence and success, and a correlation of success and fecundity—and you have circumstances that favour the spread of genes that enhance intelligence. The questions are, do such genes exist, and what are they if they do? Dr Cochran thinks they do exist, and that they are exactly the genes that cause the inherited diseases which afflict Ashkenazi society. … Now mind you I take the position that any such genetic influence are swamped by cultural ones and that that those cultural ones are becoming more common across all cultures. But I do find it interesting that your argument parallels theirs so much. **foolsguinea** I was wondering when the “clannish” trope would come up! Hard to explain “10% of senators, about 25% of nobel prize winners and fields medal winners, 20% of the wealthiest 400 americans” based on helping out your own. Promoting your own can get a kid an interview but it does not make one elected to the Senate or win one a Nobel Prize. And be real, to the degree that Jews may “promote their own” they are hardly unique - as you note, so do WASPs, and a host of other people in power, of whom there are many more who are of not Jewish groups across the world. Why and how do you think Jews are so much more successful at this clannish promotion of their own than all these other groups? ---
**Author:** ![Desolation\_Island](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Desolation\_Island](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desolation_Island)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/90 "2013-06-17T00:51:33Z")
Regarding the definition of being Jewish and the relative costs of it: > [@brickbacon](#): > > The article also says the average synagogue membership fee is $1100/year and that it’s over 3-4 times more in major cities. Of course people who identify as Jewish have to be doing moderately well in order to afford to live a Jewish lifestyle. That has little to do with genes, but rather a selective pressure put on the unsuccessful that encourages most to not live “Jewishly”. Now I suppose you may see some cumulative advantage amongst the remaining Jews, but I think little of that is due to genes, but rather inertia and redefining what it means and takes to be Jewish. > [@DSeid](#): > > **brickbacon** , many in America who both are identified as and self-identify as Jews do not belong to congregations and are both secular and fairly areligious. While “Jewish” is a religious identity, it is not only a religious identity. The culture transcends the religion. Einstein was raised in a non-observant household and went to a Catholic school. He disparaged organized religion including Judaism as an adult but certainly self-identified as a Jew. He was clearly impacted by Jewish culture. To quote Doctor Who: “It’s complicated.” But if you only recognize as Jews those who are religiously observant I’d suspect that that list of accomplished Jews would be winnowed down by a large percent. The elephant in the room here is anti-semitism. If we’re going to use a selectionist argument to say that being Jewish is costly, then the financial burden of practicing the religion or of maintaining a Jewish lifestyle is arguably negligible compared to the costs of enduring anti-semitic persecution, especially as you go further back in time, in which case this type of argument still works even if the Jew is question is secular. Being Jewish could be thus explained in terms of the peacock’s feathers in sexual selection: Anti-semitism is such a burden that poor Jews, unremarkable Jews, etc. have a greater tendency to downplay their Judaism, eventually marrying into Christian families and becoming gentiles. Meanwhile Jews who happen to be prosperous, industrious, intelligent, etc. can figure out ways to succeed in spite of the persecution they suffer, and manage to pass down their traditions. The particular aspects of Jewish culture do not necessarily have to confer an advantage, although in my personal opinion, many of them do. Furthermore, there’s a lag time factor to consider as well. For a peacock, a bad diet (and thus the inability to procure resources) becomes very rapidly apparent in the bird’s plumage. But how many generations does it take before a family starts to lose the ability to ‘keep up appearances’? Now that anti-semitism is much less of a problem than it was 200 years ago, will this mean that Jews will gradually become more mediocre? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/91 "2013-06-17T01:03:08Z")
There is selectivity in self identification. There are economic benefits to community participation, including employment, tuition costs, references, and personal contacts. This particular sub-culture definitely takes a community interest in the success of it’s members. Those who no longer participate will lose those benefits, and those who don’t recieve them are less likely to maintain their identity. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/92 "2013-06-17T01:15:38Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > I already linked to a book written by two experts documenting the evidence for such a theory and backing it up with hard evidence. You have presented a table that doesn’t even show what you think it does. If you are incapable of reading the book, or understanding the theory as presented, the fault lies with you at this point. No, that book did nothing to establish a causal factor in the decline. It is something they offered it is far from accepted “fact”. > [@](#): > > That the causal factor for the dramatic decline in Jewish population in the first half of the first millenium was the demand by religious authorities that all children must receive a religious education. There are many potential causes, the main being that, being brutally savaged in their homeland by the Romans, they may have decided to leave their traditions for the same reasons the “pagan” tribes of Europe did, they wanted to live. But until you can point to evidence that shows that eugenics works and that a persons success can be tied to genetics (outside of having features which limit ones socioeconomic mobility like skin color) it doesn’t matter. To claim that they have a genetic advantage, gained from culling their ranks, requires some proof, this you have not offered. > [@brickbacon](#): > > Which, again, doesn’t disprove anything I have said. Are you able to understand basic facts and figures? I don’t get why it’s so hard for you to actually address what is being discussed rather than just flailing about, whining about irrelevant things. I will take the fact that you are resorting to frothing at the mouth with personal attacks that you have nothing…40% of those are direct relations, show that there is a genetic component to education attainment and success. > [@brickbacon](#): > > You have presented ZERO relevant numbers. The fact that you cannot get that a table on Africa naturalization means nothing with regard to my statement is very telling. You have made it clear that you are hopelessly lost in this discussion so I don’t think anyone is missing out if you decide not to contribute more nonsense to this thread. > > And if you had been following along, you would see that I too think those things are a factor. Once again…personal attacks show you have nothing to your argument except for wishful thinking. But lets go back to your original unsubstantiated false claim. [QUOTE=brickbacon] > [@](#): > > Yes, but you also must consider that a self-identified group with few distinguishing characteristics has the unique ability to expel people who don’t live up to cultural expectations. If you are too lazy to study the Torah, or if you aren’t interested in compulsory education for your kids, you can just convert. In short, the high demands placed on adherents weeds out the uncommitted, which had the lucky side-effect of making the remaining Jews better prepared for a (future) world where education matters. [/QUOTE] Please show how in the modern world, that the orthodox church holds such a power that lets say Georgian Jews under Soviet rule could cull their heard by restricting access to education, yet as a part of US culture they end up quite educated and successful. Plus if you think all Jews are Orthodox…well I just can’t help you there. Your claims have not been proven, and shouting personal insults do nothing to prove they are true. Everything points to a cultural explanation, a community that respects and values education, has a good social network and are willing to exploit both for the betterment of their children. Don’t get me wrong…I can see the appeal to blame a form of eugenics, but the evidence is not there…how about that for one small step forward, please just show that genetics matters at in relation to the educational attainment of a child. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/93 "2013-06-17T01:16:43Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > In the time I have I’ll try to get to a few of the points made - there is currently a high cost to being “engaged in the jewish community” but not to having a Jewish identity which _requires no engagement at all_. Yes, but those people disproportionately become less Jewish over time. By that I mean they identify less and less with Judaism until their offspring eventually become indistinguishable from gentiles. > [@DSeid](#): > > There was no such substantial cost for most of the past hundreds of years. Not true, at least if you want to go back to far enough. To quote the book: > [@](#): > > Let’s first start describing the profound transformation of Judaism at the beginning of the first millennium, which has been amply documented by scholarly works. In the centuries before 70, the core of Judaism was centered around two pillars: the Temple in Jerusalem, in which sacrifices were performed by a small elite of high priests, and the reading and the study of the Written Torah, which was also restricted to a small elite of rabbis and scholars. (It was the power of this elite that the Jew Yeshua ben Josef, later know as Jesus Christ, so often decried.) > > The destruction of the Temple in 70 at the end of the first Jewish-Roman war was the first of the three external events which permanently shaped the history of the Jewish people. Momentously, it canceled one of the two pillars of Judaism, shifting the religious leadership within the Jewish community from the high priests in Jerusalem to a much more widely dispersed community of rabbis and scholars. In so doing, it transformed Judaism into a religion whose main norm required every Jewish man to read and to study the Torah in Hebrew himself and, even more radically, to send his sons from the age of six or seven to primary school or synagogue to learn to do the same. > > In the world of universal illiteracy, as it was the world at the beginning of the first millennium, this was an absolutely revolutionary transformation. At that time, no other religion had a similar norm as a membership requirement for its followers, and no state or empire had anything like laws imposing compulsory education or universal literacy for its citizens. The unexpected consequences of this change in the religious norm within Judaism would unfold in the subsequent centuries. > > [SNIP] > > Given this situation, what would economic logic predict? What would likely happen to Judaism and the Jewish people? Given a high preference for religious affiliation, some Jews will educate their children and will keep their attachment to their religion. Other Jews, however, will prefer their material well-being and will not educate their children. Furthermore, a portion of this latter group will likely convert to other religions with less demanding requirements. And so, over time, even absent wars or other demographic shocks, the size of the Jewish population will shrink because of this process of conversions. > > But are the predictions of the economic theory consistent with what really happened to the Jews during the first millennium? The historical evidence assembled in our book says yes. The implementation of this new religious norm within Judaism during the Talmud era (third to sixth centuries) determined two major patterns from 70 C.E. to the early 7th century. > > The first of these trends was the growth and spread of literacy among the predominantly rural Jewish population. The second: a slow but significant process of conversion out of Judaism (mainly into Christianity) which, caused a significant fall in the Jewish population – from 5 to 5.5 million circa 65 to roughly 1.2 million circa 650. War-related massacres and epidemics contributed to this drastic drop, but they cannot by themselves explain it. > > [SNIP] > > The third historic encounter of the Jews – this time with the Mongol conquest of the Middle East – offers the possibility to answer this question. The Mongol invasion of Persia and Mesopotamia began in 1219 and culminated in the razing of Baghdad in 1258. It contributed to the demise of the urban and commercial economy of the Abbasid Empire and brought the economies of Mesopotamia and Persia back to an agrarian and pastoral stage for a long period. > > As a consequence, a certain proportion of Persian, Mesopotamian, and then Egyptian, and Syrian Jewry abandoned Judaism. Its religious norms, especially the one requiring fathers to educate their sons, had once again become a costly religious sacrifice with no economic return. And so a number of Jews converted to Islam. > > Once again, persecutions, massacres, and plagues (e.g., the Black Death of 1348) took a toll on the Jewish population in these regions and in western Europe. But the voluntary conversions of Jews in the Middle East and North Africa, we argue, help explain why world Jewry reached its lowest level by the end of the 15th century. > > The same mechanism that explains the decline of the Jewish population in the six centuries after the destruction of the Second Temple, that is, accounts for the decline of the Jewish communities of the Middle East in the two centuries following the Mongol shock. > > None of this was planned. The rabbis and scholars who transformed Judaism into a religion of literacy during the first centuries of the first millennium, could not have foreseen the profound impact of their decision to make every Jewish man capable of reading and studying the Torah (and, later, the Mishna, the Talmud, and other religious texts). > > However, an apparently odd choice of religious norm–the enforcement of literacy in a mostly illiterate, agrarian world, potentially risky in that the process of conversions could make Judaism too costly and thus disappear–turned out to be the lever of the Jewish economic success and intellectual prominence in the subsequent centuries up to today. This is the overall novel message of “The Chosen Few.” So yes, there were lots of pressure over the past hundreds of years that still reverberates today. More importantly, many modern elements of Judaism has in effect replaced literacy as a factor that has thinned the ranks. > [@DSeid](#): > > Most middle class and upper middle class Jews in America trace their heritage to poverty within one to three generations, usually one or two. It was not until the WW2 and beyond era that American Jews began to emerge as solidly middle class. Which again is because the traits they valued and honed became valuable to society at large. Read about the story of Skadden and how they became a huge law firm. It’s one of many stories like that about how Jews being marginalized gained skills that fortuitously became valued later on. A lot of that is culture, a lot is just happenstance and luck to have an ostracized group welcomed to the most economically prosperous and successful country in the history of the world, and one that would soon be undergoing a movement of educational meritocracy. > [@DSeid](#): > > Your hypothesis \*both \*requires that such losses selectively lose the least creative/intelligent/ambitious of the population and that the numbers so lost exceed the numbers who stay by an order of magnitude or so. Neither of which seem likely to be true. Well, you could never prove such a thing, but it makes perfect sense. To analogize, the cost of getting into Harvard are fairly high in terms of study and man hours. Plenty of smart people are capable of succeeding art that school, they are just not interested in putting in the hard work to do it. Don’t you think that by it’s nature is gonna remove a lot of the untalented and unmotivated? > [@DSeid](#): > > Yes Arnold is American and I am sure would state he was if asked. He might state he was born in Austria but he would not state he is an Austrian. I would guess he considers himself an Austrian-American. Either way, would you think it’s fair to put him of a list of American Mr. Universe winners? > [@DSeid](#): > > Let’s stick with the Nigerian American example. Who has been weeded out and who selected for? People who have the skills, resources, and wherewithal to get here are more likely to be successful than average. > [@DSeid](#): > > What are the features of the group that is in America and will those features be passed on to the next generation? Wealth, values, genes, and culture tend to be passed on to some extent from generation to generation. > [@DSeid](#): > > So Jews in Europe from Ireland to Italy over the last hundreds of years, from those living in shtetls to those fewer raised in wealthy households, mostly only stayed Jews, by your way of thinking, if they were more intelligent or creative or wealthy or successful. They stayed Jewish because they didn’t mind baring the costs of maintaining a Jewish identity. Those cultural norms: education, literacy, etc. turned out to be very sought after in today’s society. They were not (as much) back then. Regardless, the costs of being Jewish leads to people with more innate intelligence and creativity and the like, sticking with it. If studying the Torah takes you an inordinate amount of time because you are stupid, you are more likely to give it up. Thus, you are left with a cohort that has facility with those things, and is likely smarter than average. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/94 "2013-06-17T01:21:08Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > No, that book did nothing to establish a causal factor in the decline. It is something they offered it is far from accepted “fact”. Right cause a well-researched book from two scholars who studied the issue at length hold not weight compare to the ramblings of some guy on the internet. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > But until you can point to evidence that shows that eugenics works and that a persons success can be tied to genetics (outside of having features which limit ones socioeconomic mobility like skin color) it doesn’t matter. You don’t know what eugenics means, and you have not been following the discussion at all given that I do not hold genetics to be a relevant factor at all. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/95 "2013-06-17T01:28:19Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Right cause a well-researched book from two scholars who studied the issue at length hold not weight compare to the ramblings of some guy on the internet. > > You don’t know what eugenics means, and you have not been following the discussion at all given that I do not hold genetics to be a relevant factor at all. You may want to google “appeal to authority” And their book’s thesis is considered off the wall, not mainstream or accepted. This is why you can only provide one source. But if you aren’t claiming a genetic reasons why didn’t the Protestant Reformation blow away any gains the Orthodox Jews had… If you claim that this “culling of the ranks” is still happening today in those who are of the Jewish faith I want actual cites. Can you offer anything but personal attacks and an appeal to the authority of one book? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/96 "2013-06-17T01:52:27Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > … because the traits they valued and honed became valuable to society at large. … Jews being marginalized gained skills that fortuitously became valued later on. A lot of that is culture, a lot is just happenstance and luck to have an ostracized group welcomed to the most economically prosperous and successful country in the history of the world, and one that would soon be undergoing a movement of educational meritocracy. … Wealth, values, genes, and culture tend to be passed on to some extent from generation to generation. … Those cultural norms: education, literacy, etc. turned out to be very sought after in today’s society. … you are left with a cohort that has facility with those things, and is likely smarter than average. So if I understand you correctly your point is trivial. You believe that Jews are over represented as defined in the op because they have some combination of genes, values, culture, and, let’s state broadly, resources, that tend to be passed on from generation to generation. That pretty much covers the whole spectrum of possible explanations. Your belief is that such occuring was the result of self-fulfilling prophecy of requiring literacy and later of other costs of continued membership (be they financial or the price paid by discrimination against them or what have you), keeping many lower intelligence converts out and driving those who did not have those values or the capacity to meet those costs (be it the intelligence or the tenacity) to no longer identify to some extremely great degree. Others have speculated the increased fecundity of those who were successful in cognitive skill sets over hundreds of years more in European Jewish communities than in European Christian ones. Others play up the influence of percieving oneself to be an outsider and needing to prove one’s self, that insecurity drives hard work. Others play up the exposure to multiple culture’s ideas. So on. In truth none are mutually exclusive hypotheses. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/97 "2013-06-17T02:01:39Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > You may want to google “appeal to authority” Do you understand the words you are using? Appeal to authority is not a means to dismiss the researched opinions of experts. I am not citing the book as the ultimate authority. I have presented their and my theses, and you have done nothing but say you disagree. That’s fine, but it holds absolutely no weight as you have demonstrated no understanding of the issue, nor the words you are using. Its’ quite pathetic actually. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > And their book’s thesis is considered off the wall, not mainstream or accepted. This is why you can only provide one source. Point out the flaws in their thinking or the discrepancies in their data. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > But if you aren’t claiming a genetic reasons why didn’t the Protestant Reformation blow away any gains the Orthodox Jews had… Gains in terms of what? What exactly are you talking about? > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > If you claim that this “culling of the ranks” is still happening today in those who are of the Jewish faith I want actual cites. I did already. I linked to rabbis, experts, and others talking about how the high cost of Judaism is creating an elitist Jewish community. Alternatively, you can look at the numbers. The number of Jews worldwide has declined in recent years. Some of that is natural attrition, but much is from people voluntarily leaving the flock. Here is another [commentary](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-shmuley-boteach/too-expensive-and-lonely_b_173065.html) by Rabbu Shmuley Boteach: > [@](#): > > The two most urgent priorities of the American Jewish community are making Jewish life more affordable and fixing the broken Jewish dating scene. > This recession has reinforced a conclusion that many came to before, that’s it’s just too expensive to be Jewish. Yes, we Jews have paid a far higher price than money to hold on to our traditions. So how ironic that an economic downturn may end up knocking countless Jewish families out of the possibility of Jewish practice. > > [SNIP] > > No doubt others have far better suggestions than me. But to ignore our community’s financial and romantic crisis is to watch a generation of Jews leave the fold not because they’re bored or busy but because they’re broke and alone. Is that enough for you, or do all those Rabbis and journalists not know what they are talking about? ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/98 "2013-06-17T02:15:49Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > So if I understand you correctly your point is trivial. You believe that Jews are over represented as defined in the op because they have some combination of genes, values, culture, and, let’s state broadly, resources, that tend to be passed on from generation to generation. That pretty much covers the whole spectrum of possible explanations. Geez. How are is this. It’s not even as if it my inarticulateness as I basically quoted a synopsis of the book written by someone else and several others commenting on this. > [@DSeid](#): > > Your belief is that such occuring was the result of self-fulfilling prophecy of requiring literacy and later of other costs of continued membership (be they financial or the price paid by discrimination against them or what have you), keeping many lower intelligence converts out and driving those who did not have those values or the capacity to meet those costs (be it the intelligence or the tenacity) to no longer identify to some extremely great degree. More or less. There are some errors with your characterization, but I don’t feel like spending much more time outlining them. > [@DSeid](#): > > In truth none are mutually exclusive hypotheses. Did I imply they were? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/99 "2013-06-17T02:18:11Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Do you understand the words you are using? Appeal to authority is not a means to dismiss the researched opinions of experts. I am not citing the book as the ultimate authority. I have presented their and my theses, and you have done nothing but say you disagree. That’s fine, but it holds absolutely no weight as you have demonstrated no understanding of the issue, nor the words you are using. Its’ quite pathetic actually. > > Point out the flaws in their thinking or the discrepancies in their data. I did, but here are a quick two a) pagan’s also decliend in the roman empire during the same time. b) the book’s claims ended at 1492…you have failed to provide any connection between then an now or to explain a better then average performance of Jews that didn’t have access to this expensive Jewish education. > [@brickbacon](#): > > I did already. I linked to rabbis, experts, and others talking about how the high cost of Judaism is creating an elitist Jewish community. Alternatively, you can look at the numbers. The number of Jews worldwide has declined in recent years. Some of that is natural attrition, but much is from people voluntarily leaving the flock. Here is another [commentary](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-shmuley-boteach/too-expensive-and-lonely_b_173065.html) by Rabbu Shmuley Boteach: > > Is that enough for you, or do all those Rabbis and journalists not know what they are talking about? Oh my…you do realize that [Catholics](http://theweek.com/article/index/202388/catholics-in-crisis) and [Methodists](http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/religion/2010-11-07-methodist07_ST_N.htm) and [Christians](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States#Attendance) in general are losing members faster than the Jewish churches. They are all polishing brass on the Titanic and ignoring the reality that as our knowledge and communication abilities increase we are becoming more secular. Or are you making the claim that the cost of religious education Episcopal church is prohibitive? Why is Judaism dropping at a slower rate? Also…that bit about the genetics of your parents and success…can I assume you have decided that doesn’t exist? The culling…you said that they could cull those they wanted to, not that people left because that couldn’t afford it…I am guessing you have decided to concede that claim was false too? ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/100 "2013-06-17T02:38:43Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > a) pagan’s also decliend in the roman empire during the same time. Which means nothing wrt to why the Jewish population declined. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > b) the book’s claims ended at 1492…you have failed to provide any connection between then an now The same mechanisms are at play. I think that was clear in my last post. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > or to explain a better then average performance of Jews that didn’t have access to this expensive Jewish education. Who are you talking about, and where is the cite that shows that Jews without access to this “expensive Jewish education” are doing better than average? > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Oh my…you do realize that [Catholics](http://theweek.com/article/index/202388/catholics-in-crisis) and [Methodists](http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/religion/2010-11-07-methodist07_ST_N.htm) and [Christians](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States#Attendance) in general are losing members faster than the Jewish churches. Again, the same mechanisms are at play. There is a cost to being religious in today’s society. It affects Catholics, Methodists, and the like just as it does Jews. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Or are you making the claim that the cost of religious education Episcopal church is prohibitive? No, I am saying that choices have costs. The Episcopal church imposes costs it’s members just as any other group does. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Why is Judaism dropping at a slower rate? Because they have been dropping or stagnant in terms of numbers for a longer period of time, are starting from a lower number, and most of the least committed have already left. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Also…that bit about the genetics of your parents and success…can I assume you have decided that doesn’t exist? Are you really calling in to question that the children don’t get most of their parents genetic attributes? > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > The culling…you said that they could cull those they wanted to, not that people left because that couldn’t afford it…I am guessing you have decided to concede that claim was false too? What are you talking about? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027.md?page=6)