# Why are Jewish people so disproportionately successful **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 14, 2013, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027 "2013-06-14T21:55:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/121 "2013-06-20T15:41:33Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Not just Indonesia, but pretty much all over Southeast Asia. But that may be a different phenomenon since we’re talking about a group that is a minority in all of its home countries, but still with strong ties to the regional powerhouse-- China. Imagine Roman citizens in outposts throughout Europe around the time of Christ. In Indonesia at least, the overseas Chinese have faced considerable discrimination and persecution. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/122 "2013-06-20T20:18:21Z")
So now the question is: What educated cohesive subcultures have not enjoyed disproportionate success? How about Mormons as another success example? I don’t think Judaism, Jewish heritage, or Jewish culture is unique when considering success as defined here. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/123 "2013-06-20T20:32:26Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > So now the question is: What educated cohesive subcultures have not enjoyed disproportionate success? > > How about Mormons as another success example? > > I don’t think Judaism, Jewish heritage, or Jewish culture is unique when considering success as defined here. I agree totally. They just happen to be a very prominent example, in the Western world at least. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/124 "2013-06-20T20:35:07Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > I’d also add in another few cultural aspects - > > The Jewish people were historically one people spread out among and travelling between many nations, in eras long before the internet. They had no natural resources; they were instead rich in exposure to the ideas of many cultures. So the culture fostered skills in the business of ideas, developing them, transporting them, translating them, transforming them, creatively adapting them to novel cultures and circumstances. You work with what you got: you got oil you drill wells, you got how another culture solved a similar problem you exploit that idea in a similar circumstance in a different culture even if you need to be a bit creative to make it work. It was also a nice set up for getting involved in trade of other things as well, which historically was were many Jewish finincial dynasties were created. > > Also the religious tradition of _arguing_ … even with God. The stories that got emphasis were ones of Moses arguing with God, Jacob wrestling with the angel, so on. The great and revered rabbis were those who were known to argue their case, their interpretation, better and more tenaciously. The students who could defend an interpretation were praised. The religious tradition was not to merely memorize what the laws were but to look for evidence that supported one interpretation over the other and to question. The value is revealed in an old proverb which mocked someone as “a bookcase; not a scholar.” As some became more assimilated into various mainstream cultures and cared less about Talmudic debates they applied those same traditions to more mainstream subjects - a good fit for the sciences in particular. > > My WAG is that these “advantages” are becoming less important in today’s era as everyone has exposure to the world of ideas and arguing has become a more valued actvity by many other cultures as well. Like the Doper culture? 😉 I’d say that these things are true, but also they operated in conjunction with a history of intermittent persecution over the centuries that, at least in Europe, (a) kept Jewish people from ever being able to settle down and become landed gentry, getting by on the accumulated wealth of previous generations, and (b) kept them in a state of reliance on assets that were portable and couldn’t easily be taken from them. And knowledge and intellectual skill are as good as it gets in that department. In short, the effect of this history of persecution was that the tradition of valuing literacy, ideas, and argumentation never got a chance to dissipate, as it might’ve for some group that was able to rise to the top of the heap, and coast on their wealth once they got there. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/125 "2013-06-21T02:21:16Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > So now the question is: What educated cohesive subcultures have not enjoyed disproportionate success? > > How about Mormons as another success example? > > I don’t think Judaism, Jewish heritage, or Jewish culture is unique when considering success as defined here. Some areas yes, like politics, and maybe business. But how many Mormon Nobel Prize winners are there? Even highly accomplished Mormon scientists? [Not too many](http://www.famousmormons.net/sci.html) or too accomplished. [Quakers](http://www.jhsteel.clara.net/science.html) a _few_ more, and _one_ Nobel prize winner. Agreed that being a perpetual outsider culture with a strong value on education will correlate with disproportionate success and is certainly a large part of the answer. And that is not all of the answer. The complete answer must explain the facts that 26% and 41% of the world’s total Nobel Prizes in Physics and Economics respectively have been won by Jews, an over-representation that no other educated outsider minority culture comes close to. RTF … yes like Doper culture, very seriously. The arguing that my wife bemoans as dysfunctional or at least annoying (“Why is everything a debate with these kids?!?”) is a quintessential part of the culture and a key elemental skill, worldview even, in certain fields. It is that worldview that attracts people to the Dope and why Dopers have an over-representation of intellectuals … not people with higher IQs, but people who are attracted to putting the brains they got to those sorts of uses, people who are interested in questioning answers that others accept. We Dopers are not so smart either (certainly not as smart as some think they/we are) I don’t think … but we do have quite a few with a particular sets of useful habits of the mind. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/126 "2013-06-21T02:30:04Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > In Indonesia at least, the overseas Chinese have faced considerable discrimination and persecution. I don’t think that changes anything. The OSC are not just some run-of-the-mill minority, but are helped by strong ties to China itself and other OSC families. There are almost 50M OSC throughout the world, most of whom are in Asia This is significantly different form Jewish populations. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/127 "2013-06-21T02:32:40Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Some areas yes, like politics, and maybe business. But how many Mormon Nobel Prize winners are there? Even highly accomplished Mormon scientists? [Not too many](http://www.famousmormons.net/sci.html) or too accomplished. [Quakers](http://www.jhsteel.clara.net/science.html) a _few_ more, and _one_ Nobel prize winner. > > Agreed that being a perpetual outsider culture with a strong value on education will correlate with disproportionate success and is certainly a large part of the answer. And that is not all of the answer. The complete answer must explain the facts that 26% and 41% of the world’s total Nobel Prizes in Physics and Economics respectively have been won by Jews, an over-representation that no other educated outsider minority culture comes close to. Ok, but over-representation in Nobel prizes is not necessarily related to disproportionate success. We may have many Hindu Indians who win Nobels in the future but with enormous number of Hindu Indians there are it will not easily correlate to greater success for that group as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/128 "2013-06-21T02:43:31Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Ok, but over-representation in Nobel prizes is not necessarily related to disproportionate success. We may have many Hindu Indians who win Nobels in the future but with enormous number of Hindu Indians there are it will not easily correlate to greater success for that group as a whole. It … _is_ … a certain sort … of disproportionate success. It may or may not relate to other sorts of success. The point is that with the “enormous number of Hindu Indians” a large percent of Nobels being won by them would _not_ be disproportionate success … it would be proportionate success. The fact there are relatively few of them is a function that Indian culture does not develop and exploit the full intellectual potential of most of its people and perhaps to some Western world centrism of the Nobel process. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/129 "2013-06-21T02:50:26Z")
Missed the edit window: I realize that defines disproportionate representation, but that could simply be a necessary characteristic of larger groups. Nobel-ability within a group as a whole may be independently based on the same conditions required for financial success, yet not as a factor in achieving other definitions of success. It may even be something tied to unique circumstances in a narrow timeframe. If the Society of Friends had not been a declining religion in the 20th century we might have seen the same kind of disproportionate representation in Nobel prizes among them. ETA: Ok, since you saw the first part, yes the Indian example wasn’t to explain the disproportion, but the effect of circumstances in creating the disproportion or lack of it. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/130 "2013-06-21T04:38:34Z")
Is the Nobel Prize really a good example? It is decided by a committee, no? That introduces at least some subjectivity into the results. Things like billionaires or Thomas Edisons seem a truer measure. But then again, culture. Bah! As an aside, are there still any Hebrews? Have they been re-branded, or did they fade out somehow? ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/131 "2013-06-21T08:53:16Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Some areas yes, like politics, and maybe business. But how many Mormon Nobel Prize winners are there? Even highly accomplished Mormon scientists? Not too many or too accomplished. Quakers a few more, and one Nobel prize winner. First, that list is incomplete. [Joseph Hooton Taylor Jr.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Hooton_Taylor,_Jr.) is another Quaker Nobel Laureate as well as [Frederick Sangar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Sanger) who won the Nobel Prize (twice!). There may be more, I stopped looking after a brief skim. There does appear to be an [extended family (PDF warning)](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&ved=0CFQQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pennyghael.org.uk%2Fimages%2FQuakerFamilyNobelPrizes.pdf&ei=PRXEUYjCOsew0AWYw4DoAQ&usg=AFQjCNGtzgrCgx-Ukth7PdxeSp7K9wW8LA&sig2=PFQZkUGt1G6kqg7IZbfrmg&bvm=bv.48293060,d.d2k), of which Sangar and Hodgkin were members, that have won eight prizes between them, however, and to what extent all of these can be considered Quaker Nobel Prizes is up for debate. Second, are we really trying to pretend the Nobel Prize is subjective, and that it’s a cut and dried issue that Joseph Lister, a man who revolutionised medicine with his work on antisepsis, was not worthy of a Nobel Prize, whilst those who did receive the Nobel Prize in Physiology undoubtedly did more profound work than he did? Third, half of the scientists listed on that page were dead before the Nobel Prize was even thought of; the first award only being made in 1901, with the prize not being awarded posthumously. I’d argue _at least_ one (Dalton) of those Quaker scientists did pioneering, revolutionary work that, if performed a little later, would undoubtedly have been recognised by the Nobel Committee. Lastly, the world population of Quakers is about 360,000, whilst the world population of Jews is 13.3 million, 36 times as many, and by the time the twentieth century came around, where science came into its own (and the Nobel Prize appeared), the Quaker star was already beginning to fade. (Disclosure: I’m neither a Jew nor a Quaker). ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/132 "2013-06-21T09:03:36Z")
Their small number. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/133 "2013-06-21T09:28:30Z")
If you want to calculate success per Nobel Prize winners, you should start by discounting the useless Nobel Prizes – the Peace and Literature. So I get 161 Jewish Nobel Prize winners. With 13.3 million people that amounts to 1 per 82,608. The Faroe Island has one Nobel Prize winner. There’re 50,000 people on the godforsaken islands. So 1 per 50.000. Ergo the Faroese are vastly more successful than the Jews. Actually more so, since Jews tend to be killed and Faroese tend to breed like rats. So the relative population size was probably a lot more to the Jewish side if you go back a few years. Hurrah for me. I’m successful per proxy! ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/134 "2013-06-21T09:34:16Z")
Also fun to compare: [Mormon criminals](http://www.famousmormons.net/infamous.html) and [Jewish criminals](http://kenbraiterman.com/great-jewish-criminals-then-and-now-and-fewer-jewish-addicts-then/). From the above wholly unscientific comparison, it seems that even in crime Jews do much better. While the Jewish immigrant generation (1880-1920), had less alcoholism, crime, and domestic violence than other immigrant groups, when they did cross over to the dark side, they did great. The infamous Mormons were lone sad individuals who murdered for provate reasons, like Ted Bundy. Compare that to the big Jewish mobsters, or to Bernie Madoff, who got away with the biggest Ponzi scheme history ever saw. ---
**Author:** ![Norvaal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/d9b06d/32.png) [@Norvaal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norvaal)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/135 "2013-06-21T11:04:49Z")
I am not sure how much I can add to the discussion; we have had so many interesting comments and supporting statistics up to this point. The question is not a simple one to answer, but I will try to give my opinion based on what I have observed. As some have touched on already, Jewish culture has always encouraged children and adults to study hard, whether the material is religious or not, so they tend to do well academically. Aside from that, I think that it has been a matter of being in the right place at the right time. A case in point is Hollywood; many of the early pioneers of the motion picture industry, such as the original Warner Bros., were Jewish, and it is common knowledge that to this day the Jews still have a very large presence in Hollywood. Experience has taught many of them to recognize a profitable opportunity when they see one. As for their success having anything to do with “genetic IQ,” I find that too controversial an idea to offer any kind of feedback. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/136 "2013-06-21T12:24:13Z")
Capt Ridley’s, Some valid points about Quakers as a specific example (albeit the Nobel being subjective and some who deserved it not getting on the list is one that presumptively cut out some Jewish contenders as well, unless you posit a strong anti-Quaker bias by those who have been on the Comittee). My counterpoint remains: “success” as measured by having outlier levels in sciences at least, is not something that follows in all or even most outsider groups that highly value education, even if Quakers are also over-represented. It alone is an insufficient explanation. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/137 "2013-06-21T12:35:19Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > Also fun to compare: > [Mormon criminals](http://www.famousmormons.net/infamous.html) and [Jewish criminals](http://kenbraiterman.com/great-jewish-criminals-then-and-now-and-fewer-jewish-addicts-then/). > > From the above wholly unscientific comparison, it seems that even in crime Jews do much better. While the Jewish immigrant generation (1880-1920), had less alcoholism, crime, and domestic violence than other immigrant groups, when they did cross over to the dark side, they did great. Don’t forget the great Jewish master spy tradition (my personal favorite is the notorious [Two-Gun Cohen](http://www.movieweb.com/news/doug-liman-directing-two-gun-cohen-biopic), who handled counter-intelligence for the Chinese in the 1920s-30s). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/138 "2013-06-21T13:41:14Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > From the above wholly unscientific comparison, it seems that even in crime Jews do much better. _“Man has climbed Mount Everest, gone to the bottom of the ocean. He’s fired rockets at the Moon, split the atom, achieved miracles in every field of human endeavor… except crime!”_ ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/139 "2013-06-21T16:45:16Z")
An [excellent article](http://www.american.com/archive/2011/october/the-2011-nobel-prize-and-the-debate-over-jewish-iq) pertinent to this op! One bit that applies to one point made earlier: > [@](#): > > Charles Murray argues that the commandment that Jewish fathers teach their children the Law would cause Jews incapable of meeting the intellectual and literacy demands of their faith to abandon the community. The less intelligent would drift off to join other groups, leaving behind a more intelligent core.28 The problem with this theory is that there were many periods in early Jewish history in which many Jews were simple peasants, and either did not follow Jewish law, left their worship in the hands of the priests, or developed the superstitions of folk Judaism. > > Others argue that there was never any selection for intelligence among European Jews—rather, European Christian society selected against intelligence.29 Christian clergy were celibate, and knights fell in battle, giving reproductive advantages to the less accomplished and intelligent … Another about a different one: > [@](#): > > Though Cochran, et al. maintain that non-Ashkenazi Jews do not show high average IQ scores, and are not disproportionately represented in cognitively demanding fields, there is evidence to the contrary.22 The Jewish scientists in Sarton’s studies were not Ashkenazim of central Europe, but rather Sephardi Jews living in more tolerant Spain and Islamic countries. After the 1492 expulsion from Spain, Sephardi Jews were especially prominent in the trade centered around Amsterdam, in the age of discovery, and in building Jewish communities around international trade in the new world. Again, my take, FWIW: I have no quibbles withe the cpncept that IQ, whatever it actually represents, is to a large degree genetic. There seems little debate that the average IQ of Ashkenazi Jews is very modestly higher than the genral population mean. That difference is modest enough that it means very little for the average person however, Jewish or not. Most Jews are still pretty broadly average in IQ. Yes, a broadly better than average IQ is required for the highest level of accomplishments but it is not enough. As the article points out: > [@](#): > > A mean intelligence 7.5 IQ points above the American average would result in four times as many Jews with an IQ above 130 compared to their gentile counterparts,8 but the overrepresentation is greater than that. One must also have the interest in applying that IQ in particular ways. That interest is cultural. Jewish culture has both had the outsider insecurity and has pushed the concept of argumentative nerd and geek as an aspirational model for centruries while the most able in many other cultures were aiming for warrior or hunter or craftsman … not being a person of books (let alone of the Book). Once again, these differences between Jewish and other cultures is no longer as true. Younger Jews are less insecure about their place in the world and other cultures elevate the argumentative geek/nerd archetype too now. Whatever gene pool factor has been extant may even be less pertinent as Jews marry others in increasingly greater numbers (although to be fair, they do _tend_ to attract and be attracted to smart mates with similar cultural values …) ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/140 "2013-06-24T04:08:51Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Let’s see - > > Israel - population 7.8M - 10 Nobels > Japan - population 128M - 20 Nobels > Italy - population 60M - 20 Nobels > Australia - population 22M - 13 Nobels > etc. etc. > > And if you want to compare apples to apples - that is, since Israel was created in 1948, you only look at Nobel prize winners from 1948 and later, it is even more lopsided. > > So - not really “like any other”, no. This looks like bad math to me. Number of Nobels to the population is not a clear correlation to anything, and neither are Olympic gold medals. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027.md?page=8)