# Why are Jewish people so disproportionately successful **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 14, 2013, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027 "2013-06-14T21:55:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/141 "2013-06-24T13:01:55Z")
> [@the\_diego](#): > > This looks like bad math to me. Number of Nobels to the population is not a clear correlation to anything, and neither are Olympic gold medals. I hate it when people ignore what the post was about and instead substitute a strawman. Look at the post for which my post was the response. That post clamed: “Correct me if I’m wrong, but my impression is that Israel does not deliver more then the average number of Nobel prize winners. They are a country like any other, in that regard.” I showed that no, Israel does “deliver” way more than the average number of Nobel winners. Thus they are not “a country like any other, in that regard”. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/142 "2013-06-24T13:08:28Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > …Jews marry others in increasingly greater numbers (although to be fair, they do _tend_ to attract and be attracted to smart mates with similar cultural values …) I’ll pass this along to Mrs. J., who shares my interests in dogs, seafood and Aztec Human Sacrifice. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/143 "2013-06-24T15:15:31Z")
The demographic group most overrepresentation in Nobel Prize winners are white males. I assume that the people who read anything into Jewish Nobel Prizes are equally at ease with doing the same for whites and men. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/144 "2013-06-24T23:45:51Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I hate it when people ignore what the post was about and instead substitute a strawman. > > Look at the post for which my post was the response. That post clamed: “Correct me if I’m wrong, but my impression is that Israel does not deliver more then the average number of Nobel prize winners. They are a country like any other, in that regard.” > > I showed that no, Israel does “deliver” way more than the average number of Nobel winners. Thus they are not “a country like any other, in that regard”. Did you try to “average” the numbers you gave? Looks like he was right. He was talking about number of awards with no regard to length of time or size of population. And that was your second “I hate” post. Strange coming from you. ---
**Author:** ![Renee\_RL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7c8e57/32.png) [@Renee\_RL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renee_RL)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/145 "2013-06-25T00:06:21Z")
> [@the\_diego](#): > > This looks like bad math to me. Number of Nobels to the population is not a clear correlation to anything, and neither are Olympic gold medals. Before Germany killed off millions of jews , there was a large number of Nobel prize winners,afterwards hardly any. I see a correlation. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/146 "2013-06-25T00:26:54Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > The demographic group most overrepresentation in Nobel Prize winners are white males. I assume that the people who read anything into Jewish Nobel Prizes are equally at ease with doing the same for whites and men. Speaking just for me I do - there are cultural explanations for why White males were at the top of the sciences for so many years. Opportunities that existed for them that did not exist for others. Doors that opened for them that were less open for others. And, I believe, there are cultural explanations for the over-representaions of Jews there, just different ones. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/147 "2013-06-25T02:07:31Z")
> [@Prejteach2](#): > > Before Germany killed off millions of jews , there was a large number of Nobel prize winners,afterwards hardly any. I see a correlation. For just Germany, sure. Now did you count the number of scientists who went to the US after the war, not just those gassed? ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/148 "2013-06-25T02:46:50Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > It seems to me that rather than asking this about “Jews” we perhaps should be asking this in regards to “American Jews”. There may be a kernel of truth to this insofar as the majority of American Jews are of Ashkenazy background. I would submit, that for whatever reason, and using metrics such as Nobel Prize, Fields Prize, “successful” academics, etc., that it _is_ the Ashkenazy Jews who are “disproportionately successful”. As for more concrete evidence that it is not American Jewry so much as Ashkenazy Jews who are successful, I will note (without cites), the percentage of Jews at the highest level of academic achievement in Canada, South Africa (before the last wave of emigration), and in virtually all European countries before WWII. All these groups are/were predominantly Ashkenazy. All that said, you also mentioned Israel, but in order to show that the there were “unsuccessful” Jews there. Of course there are. But I ask you to look at the number of mathematicians, “basic science” cryptographers, engineers, chess masters, musical prodigies, etc., in a country with a population less than half that of New York City. I submit that is _prima facie_ evidence of the abilities talents of Jews _per se_, not just “American Jews”, and presumably not just Ashkenazy Jews. ---
**Author:** ![Namkcalb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c89c15/32.png) [@Namkcalb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Namkcalb)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/149 "2013-06-25T06:57:03Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Lastly, the world population of Quakers is about 360,000, whilst the world population of Jews is 13.3 million, 36 times as many, and by the time the twentieth century came around, where science came into its own (and the Nobel Prize appeared), the Quaker star was already beginning to fade. Most Quakers are in Kenya and other developing countries. It is unfair to compare them with Judaism, a religion mostly practiced in the developed world. Futhermore, other than their pacifism, ~90% of Quakers today aren’t that different from regular Christians, it’s only ~10% still have pastorless, unprogrammed/silent meetings for worship. Those 10% are disproportionately successful. Interestingly, like the Jews, Quakers were barred from higher education until the late nineteenth century, thus forcing them to find alternatives. [Here’s a BBC article on the subject](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/8467833.stm) ---
**Author:** ![Terrible\_Twos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@Terrible\_Twos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrible_Twos)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/150 "2013-07-03T12:53:23Z")
Some of this may have been covered above: 1. stable family life and until recently very low divorce rates 2. Jews have been pacifists for several thousand years until recently, directing their energies into finding a way to survive without fighting. The passion to excell was, nearly undoubtably, part of the struggle to survive. Jewish humour abounds with reflections on the neurosis of this passion/struggle 3. in ancient times had already developed international network of business cooperation 4. prevented in Europe from owning land, therefore developed trade, finance, business acumen. They were also considered trustworthy with regard to the authorities (and had to be given the vulnerability coming out of their marginal status 5. community solidarity and support 6. huge emphasis on education and literacy, partly as a way of survival and partly (see 7 below) 7. huge commitment in the past to God and His Teachings, and the debate thereof. Through this they explored deeper consciousness, developed intellectual power, sensitivity, insight, powers of analysis, dispassion and detachment and other virtues which served them well (8) relatively very low alcoholism rate; may have changed in last few decades not sure (9) power of example. Having educated, succcessful, hardworking examples reproduces itself in the next generation. 115 IQ as an average may not tell the whole story about the number of Jewish Nobel Prize winners. Is it possible that Jewish scores at the high end of the spectrum are more prevalent? ---
**Author:** ![Longshanks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Longshanks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Longshanks)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/151 "2013-07-11T13:31:06Z")
I don’t think being a Jew has anything to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![Ab3K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/858c86/32.png) [@Ab3K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ab3K)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/152 "2013-07-11T19:47:16Z")
Jews helping other jews get to the top…once there are plenty of jews in that certain sector they move on to another and so on. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/153 "2013-07-11T19:58:13Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I’m wondering if there is such thing as a reverse [stereotype threat](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype_threat). > > …It makes me wonder, though. If it’s irrational for a person to be self-loathing because of their group membership, is it equally irrational for a person to have high self-esteem because of it? Yeah, I think having high expections of yourself and growing up in an environment where others have high expectation of you probably makes a difference. > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Lets take the conversation in that direction, see how it turns out. …Granted, other minority groups have been persecuted in world history. But I think the persecution of the Jews has gone on longer, and been far wider (since it covered most christian and Islamic nations, which make up the bulk of the world’s power) so there were fewer places to escape to. It sounds like you think that Jews are successful for much the same reason that the Fremen of Arrakis were badass warriors. Sure adversity breeds ability but I think Brickbacon makes a good point in this post: > [@brickbacon](#): > > Or they stop identifying as Jewish. While I don’t dismiss your hypothesis outright, I think you glossing over an important question- what is a Jew? Is it someone of the Jewish faith? Is it someone who shares certain genes or culture? If you go with the thinking that it’s a race of people, then self-identified Jews are likely a very small (and exceptional) portion of those who are actually Jewish. If you go by people who have a certain religion, then why would you assume a self-identified, self-selecting group has significant genetic overlap? My third hand understanding is that the rabbinical tradition made an already difficult life as a Medieval Jew almost unbearable if you weren’t smart. So why put up with persecution from society generally and disdain from your fellow Jews when all you had to do was put on a cross and get rid of all your problems at once. I guess I’m saying that the perils of persecution may not have been as much of a selective factor for high intelligence (lots of people get persecuted, why aren’t the Roma doing as well as the jews?) as internal favoritism towards high IQ that caused other people to opt out of the group. This combined with a history and tradition that encouraged investments in portable wealth and human capital (human capital weighs almost nothing) and being prepared for when (not if) the SHTF. So you had a lot of focus on developing human resources like skills and education. You also had a much richer tradition of entrepreneurialism because noone would give you a job. Or it could just be a conspiracy by the elders of Zion.😉 ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/154 "2013-07-11T20:38:15Z")
> [@Ab3K](#): > > Jews helping other jews get to the top…once there are plenty of jews in that certain sector they move on to another and so on. Interesting assertion. Do you have a cite for this? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/155 "2013-07-11T21:21:00Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > Interesting assertion. Do you have a cite for this? It strikes me that the [**Diamond District**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_District) in NYC makes for a pretty good cite. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/156 "2013-07-11T22:08:05Z")
So the diamond district is a cite for how Jews are clannish and we look out for each other as a matter of protocol and give other Jewish people unfair and discriminatory business advantages simply because they’re Jewish. And it’s a cite for how Jews move on from one industry to the next, like economic predators, once they’ve reached a critical mass in one industry . Like a virus. Interesting, that. Would you care to investigate George Tenet, again, Red? ---
**Author:** ![bita\_malt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@bita\_malt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bita_malt)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/157 "2013-07-11T22:45:10Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Jews have a higher IQ, around 115 on average for verbal and mathematical IQ, but a little lower for spatial. I’m a little confused. I have read that the average IQ of Ashkenazi jews is [between 107 and 115](http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/007796.html) or, alternatively, [between a fifth to one full standard deviation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jewish_intelligence#Does_a_group_difference_in_intelligence_exist.3F) for math and verbal intelligence. Why then do you say “around 115” (and i have seen this in other forums (sometimes they say “117”))? Could you give me a link to an article that provides that figure? ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/158 "2013-07-11T23:35:54Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > It strikes me that the [**Diamond District**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_District) in NYC makes for a pretty good cite. Not really because that’s a pretty exceptional business model. It’s hardly a widespread phenomena and for most of history, a Jewish background was a liability in business. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/159 "2013-07-31T22:54:50Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > Also fun to compare: > [Mormon criminals](http://www.famousmormons.net/infamous.html) and [Jewish criminals](http://kenbraiterman.com/great-jewish-criminals-then-and-now-and-fewer-jewish-addicts-then/). > > From the above wholly unscientific comparison, it seems that even in crime Jews do much better. While the Jewish immigrant generation (1880-1920), had less alcoholism, crime, and domestic violence than other immigrant groups, when they did cross over to the dark side, they did great. > > The infamous Mormons were lone sad individuals who murdered for provate reasons, like Ted Bundy. Compare that to the big Jewish mobsters, or to Bernie Madoff, who got away with the biggest Ponzi scheme history ever saw. On the subject of successful jewish criminals, one of the founders of the Aryan Brotherhood prison gang (Tyler Bingham) was jewish. You have to give credit where credit is due, a jew who co-founds a neo-nazi white supremicist prison gang? That takes balls and talent to rise to the top of a group like that. When eminem becomes a leader in the BGF, then someone let me know. ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027/160 "2013-08-09T20:21:38Z")
I am sure we can come up with a list of minority communities that have been successful in Western society: Jews and Quakers are two notable examples of religious minorities. In the East there are also examples: such as another religious minority, the Parsees of India. Some are the richest people in India, with family names like Tata and Mittal which dominate many industries (not least the Steel business.) They are successful in Business, the Arts and Academia and their numbers are actually quite low numbering a couple of hundred thousand. The thing these groups have in common is that they have a tradition of scholarship and faced sanctions on their economic activities that encouraged them to find a more accepting society. A distinct religious identity also tends to create a network that strengthens the community. If you think about how you get on in a new country, where do you start? You look for level playing fields, any area where you can make some progress that does not depend on being qualified by your heritage. New areas of the economy that are open to competition and haven’t been sewn up by vested interests. You can get on by: Being good at examinations for professions and academia. Developing expertise in premium cultural skills. Starting businesses by innovating in new expanding areas. The Quakers were very marginalised as a relogious minority in the UK in the 18th Century. Those that did not emigrate found themselves excluded from the established professions, the established church and their pacifist teachings excluded them from military service. So they went into the smelting iron and steel and then became the engineers who drove the Industrial revolution. Their abstinence from alcohol also led them to dominate the world of confectionery and soft drinks. The path of the Jewish community followed the same logical path. However, some economic paths are more risky than others. Having a religion that allows the lending of money for interest, a practice long regarded as sinful in Christianity, made Jewish communities highly vulnerable to local political interests and subject to persecution. The fortunes of diaspora and minorities are an interesting subject, but we should not get too hung up on any one example. I am sure the tales of great success for some minorities are more than outweighed by tales of woe by many others. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jewish-people-so-disproportionately-successful/661027.md?page=9)