# Why are Jews persecuted? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 20, 2000, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jews-persecuted/17400 "2000-01-20T03:24:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![John\_John](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8797f3/32.png) [@John\_John](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_John)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2000, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jews-persecuted/17400/81 "2000-01-28T00:40:00Z")
Chaim > [@](#): > > First of all, Genesis is the first book. Second of all, even most secular scholars say that the Bible probably pre-dates the Babylonian exile; I don’t think there are any serious scholars, religious or secular, who place the dating of the Torah’s authoring as later than the reign of the Judean king Hezekiah. Third of all, perhaps both the ancient Babylonian story and the Biblical account, rather than one being based on the other, are both based on a common, earlier account…perhaps the truth Sorry, Chaim, I meant to write Genesis but wrote Exodus instead. Stop snickering, tom! Genesis, does not predate the Babyloniian captivity but was written concurrently. Jewish scholars do not agree with that but secular scholars date it at that time. Moses did not speak Hebrew because he was born and raised in Egypt, as was most of the people of the Exodus. Not a big deal, or indicative of anything, other than a point of interest. You say this and that is so because it was written in the Bible and that is my point, someone wrote it, and that does not make it so. You believe that and I do not. But I do respect your beliefs, as I do with Christians who believe things on faith. You are both the same in that regard. We both know how this would work if we continued this debate, I say this, you say that, I don’t convince you and you do not convince me. It would be that way for 1000 posts and we would both die of boredom. I’m speaking in the historical sense and you are talking in the spiritual sense. Next, some Christian would start quoting the Bible, don’t even think about it tom, and you would answer and I would fall asleep. Suffice it by saying that I do not accept the things you and Chrisians take on faith from a book written by man. I judge actions, talk and ritual can be very misleading. I will continue to diuscuss parts of this if you like but I do not want to get into the spiritual stuff, only historical if that is possible. I do not want to disparage your religion, or Christians either, it’s just not my thing. * * * The truth is generally seen, rarely heard. Gracian. ---
**Author:** ![John\_John](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8797f3/32.png) [@John\_John](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_John)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2000, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jews-persecuted/17400/82 "2000-01-28T00:47:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by andros: > \*\*I guess we can certainly see that Jews **are** persecuted. > > The question remains **why**. > > So, **John John** , why the fierce pursuit of **Chaim**? Can’t you accept that his faith is real to him? Are you trying to convert him? What’s up? > > And, **Chaim** , you are being amazingly patient and polite. I salute you. > > -andros-\*\* ## And why would he not be polite? I have given him no reason to be rude. We are discussing things from two separate perspectives. Do you have a problem with that? We don’t. Fierce pursuit, convert him? Are you reading this board at all? Where do you see anything approaching fierce, or any attempt at conversion? The truth is generally seen, rarely heard. Gracian. ---
**Author:** ![John\_John](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8797f3/32.png) [@John\_John](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_John)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2000, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jews-persecuted/17400/83 "2000-01-28T00:52:00Z")
tom > [@](#): > > John John, I’m quite willing to let cmkeller answer his own questions. THAN YOU, TOM. Just couldn’t resist the temptation, tommy, could you? 🙂 mipsman, where the hell are ya? * * * The truth is generally seen, rarely heard. Gracian. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2000, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jews-persecuted/17400/84 "2000-01-28T01:30:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Fierce pursuit, convert him? Are you reading this board at all? Where do you see anything approaching fierce, or any attempt at conversion? Never said I did. I asked a question, based on what appeared to me to be a very agressive line of questioning. I realize the Chaim hasn’t shown any offense, but many people would when faced with an abrupt denial of their beliefs. That’s the patience he’s shown. -andros- ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2000, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jews-persecuted/17400/85 "2000-01-28T01:51:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by APB9999: > \*\* Just because _some_ ignorant drunkards are bigots, doesn’t mean we’re all that way! I, for one, am tired of this ceaseless smearing of beer-hall trash, many of whom are my good friends and relatives, and most of whom are fine, decent people, upstanding members of their communities if not always steadily so. Your very language is condescending: Note the way Rousseau uses “inebriated logic” as an insult, as if there were something inherently _wrong_ with or _inferior_about it! Why some of the world’s most profound and original thinkers did all their best work while sprawled under the tables of the world’s bars, pubs, and beer halls, and its high time we stopped hiding the truth about this in our schools’ “history” (read: “propaganda”)classes. Then maybe we wouldn’t have to put up with such blatant derogation from the posters at this site. Perpetuating negative stereotypes does nothing to bolster your case, gentlemen, and equating us with “rednecks” and “failures” (!)shows an insensitivity that springs from nothing but base of ignorance of this proud demographic!\*\* Gee, APB… I’m sorry. I didn’t realize the vast pride you take in your drunken, inbred, redneck heritage. You’re right–all you drunken louts are just golly gee-wiz nifty. Bottoms up! * * * With magic, you can turn a frog into a prince. With science, you can turn a frog into a Ph.D, and you still have the frog you started with. ---
**Author:** ![John\_John](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8797f3/32.png) [@John\_John](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_John)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2000, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jews-persecuted/17400/86 "2000-01-28T01:56:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by andros: > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > Fierce pursuit, convert him? Are you reading this board at all? Where do you see anything approaching fierce, or any attempt at conversion? > > Never said I did. I asked a question, based on what appeared to me to be a very agressive line of questioning. > > I realize the Chaim hasn’t shown any offense, but many people would when faced with an abrupt denial of their beliefs. That’s the patience he’s shown. > > -andros-\*\* Andros, I think you’re projecting. I think you are also trying to insert an element into this discussion that does not exist. Perhaps you should reread our post and then maybe the tone of cordiality of our discussion might seep in. * * * The truth is generally seen, rarely heard. Gracian. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2000, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jews-persecuted/17400/87 "2000-01-28T03:10:00Z")
Whatever. As I said, it was just my impression. ---
**Author:** ![John\_John](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8797f3/32.png) [@John\_John](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_John)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2000, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jews-persecuted/17400/88 "2000-01-28T12:14:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by andros: > **Whatever. As I said, it was just my impression.** Ok, impression. But I’m not clear on where you got that impression. I can tell you, it was not from anything Chaim or I wrote in this thread. * * * The truth is generally seen, rarely heard. Gracian. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2000, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jews-persecuted/17400/89 "2000-01-28T13:17:00Z")
Hey, John John, I think you should post a few more times to Andros to tell him he was wrong about his impression that you were not aggressively questioning Chaim. That’ll show him! [/sarcasm] ---
**Author:** ![John\_John](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8797f3/32.png) [@John\_John](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_John)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2000, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jews-persecuted/17400/90 "2000-01-28T13:26:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by David B: > \*\*Hey, John John, I think you should post a few more times to Andros to tell him he was wrong about his impression that you were not aggressively questioning Chaim. That’ll show him! > > [/sarcasm]\*\* NOTED. Good idea. Hey, Andros… ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2000, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jews-persecuted/17400/91 "2000-01-28T17:45:00Z")
John John: > [@](#): > > Moses did not speak Hebrew because he was born and raised in Egypt, as was most of the people of the Exodus. Not a big deal, or indicative of anything, other than a point of interest. Also not a logical assumption. Plenty of nth-generation Italian-Americans still speak Italian, Hispanic-Americans Spanish and Chinese-Americans Chinese. There’s no reason to assume that a third-generation (second, on his mother’s side) Israelite-Egyptian wouldn’t speak Hebrew. > [@](#): > > You say this and that is so because it was written in the Bible and that is my point, someone wrote it, and that does not make it so. Oh, were you just trying to point out that my knowledge of Biblical times comes from the Bible? Of course it does. I thought you were asking questions that you wanted to know the answers to. > [@](#): > > You believe that and I do not. Right. We’ve already agreed to disagree. Several posts ago. > [@](#): > > Suffice it by saying that I do not accept the things you and Chrisians take on faith from a book written by man. Or so **you** believe. > [@](#): > > I judge actions, talk and ritual can be very misleading. Misleading about what? And against what standard do you judge those actions? > [@](#): > > but I do not want to get into the spiritual stuff, only historical if that is possible. Fine and good; but questions about Biblical personalities can only be answered from Biblical sources, since that’s really the only source to indicate that they existed at all. Chaim Mattis Keller ---
**Author:** ![John\_John](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8797f3/32.png) [@John\_John](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_John)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2000, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jews-persecuted/17400/92 "2000-01-29T00:25:00Z")
## quote: ## Moses did not speak Hebrew because he was born and raised in Egypt, as was most of the people of the Exodus. Not a big deal, or indicative of anything, other than a point of interest. [[Also not a logical assumption. Plenty of nth-generation Italian-Americans still speak Italian, Hispanic-Americans Spanish and Chinese-Americans Chinese. There’s no reason to assume that a third-generation (second, on his mother’s side) Israelite-Egyptian wouldn’t speak Hebrew.]]] ## Not a logical conclusion on your part either, Chaim. He surely knew a few words of Hebrew but is first language was Egyptian and that is what he spoke every day. That stands to reason. quote: ## You say this and that is so because it was written in the Bible and that is my point, someone wrote it, and that does not make it so. [[[Oh, were you just trying to point out that my knowledge of Biblical times comes from the Bible? Of course it does. I thought you were asking questions that you wanted to know the answers to.]]]] You missed by point, I think. I’m saying that just because the Bible says it is so, that you quote, does not make it fact, since that book was written by man. There IS proof that it was written by man but NONE that it was written as an inspired instrument by GOD. ## quote: ## You believe that and I do not. [[Right. We’ve already agreed to disagree. Several posts ago.]] ## Just wanted to iterate that point. quote: ## Suffice it by saying that I do not accept the things you and Chrisians take on faith from a book written by man. [[Or so you believe.]] ## Yes, and YOU believe every word of the Bible and I do not. quote: ## I judge actions, talk and ritual can be very misleading. [[Misleading about what? And against what standard do you judge those actions?]] ## Misleading in that a man might say he is a man of GOD and turn out to be a charlatan. This is NOT a reference to you in any way. I judge it against my instincts and whether the person puts his words into practice in his everyday life . quote: ## but I do not want to get into the spiritual stuff, only historical if that is possible. [[Fine and good; but questions about Biblical personalities can only be answered from Biblical sources, since that’s really the only source to indicate that they existed at all. Chaim Mattis Keller]] Which raises the question that it is in the interest of that religion, Christian, Muslim or Jew, to state those beliefs as fact, which they are not. All the things in the Bible, NT and OT, are fantastic stories. You chose to believe this as fact and I see them as children stories. You laud Moses for killing a man and said that pleased GOD. It did? How do you know? I differ with this assessment very strongly. “Vengence is mine said the Lord,” right? No one has the right to kill another man, except if he is trying to kill you, and this man was NOT trying to kill Moses. No one knows for sure if he was defending a friend or just angry. 40 years to go a few hundred miles is NOT an Exodus but a very slow, glacial, really, chang of location. ## Chaim, do you think Jesus was an Essen?-sp? Do you think HE was trying to start a new religion, or another branch of Judaism? The truth is generally seen, rarely heard. Gracian. ---
**Author:** ![nebuli](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/0ea827/32.png) [@nebuli](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nebuli)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2000, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jews-persecuted/17400/93 "2000-01-29T01:21:00Z")
Chaim, referring to Moses, you said: > [@](#): > > There’s no reason to assume that a third-generation (second, on his mother’s side) Israelite-Egyptian wouldn’t speak Hebrew. According to scripture, he was taken in and raised from infancy by the Egyptian royal family- and raised as an Egyptian. Seems to me, that if one is to accept the scriptural account there is very good reason to assume his native language would have been Egyptian. Of course he might have learned Hebrew as a second language, but it raises the question of why he (a member of the royal family) would have bothered to learn the language of slaves. ---
**Author:** ![John\_John](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8797f3/32.png) [@John\_John](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_John)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2000, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jews-persecuted/17400/94 "2000-01-29T01:30:00Z")
And who would have taught it to him? No slave would have dared and he did not associate with them, being Royal. Learning Hebrew was outlawed in Egypt. The language of the enemy is never looked upon favorably. * * * The truth is generally seen, rarely heard. Gracian. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2000, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jews-persecuted/17400/95 "2000-01-29T01:43:00Z")
Hey guys? A little hint for you. One of the reasons that **CMKeller** is capable of giving such fantastic answers to your questions is that he is an Orthodox Jew and a student of the Torah. Here’s another thing that the Orthodox do: they observe the Sabbath. Strictly. **CM** stopped using the computer at sundown today, and will not resume until sundown tomorrow. So try not to load up too much on the questions till then, OK? ## I’m not making any accusations here or anything. Just trying to relieve the burden on a fellow New Yorker. Livin’ on Tums, vitamin E and Rogaine ---
**Author:** ![John\_John](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8797f3/32.png) [@John\_John](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_John)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2000, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jews-persecuted/17400/96 "2000-01-29T01:48:00Z")
[[I’m not making any accusations here or anything. Just trying to relieve the burden on a fellow New Yorker.]]] ## Of course you’re not. You are doing it just to protect a fellow New Yorker. Right. Hey, Manny, I’m a New Yorker too, YOU knew that. Would you protect me if I didn’t post on Sunday? Of course you would, right? The truth is generally seen, rarely heard. Gracian. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2000, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jews-persecuted/17400/97 "2000-01-29T01:49:00Z")
In a second. ---
**Author:** ![John\_John](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8797f3/32.png) [@John\_John](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_John)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2000, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jews-persecuted/17400/98 "2000-01-29T01:59:00Z")
Right. I believe you. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2000, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jews-persecuted/17400/99 "2000-01-29T03:19:00Z")
JJ: I encourage you to stop posting every day so Manhattan can defend you more often. Try it, I bet it’ll work! ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2000, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jews-persecuted/17400/100 "2000-01-29T06:06:00Z")
**John John** (regarding Moses’s knowledge of Hebrew): > [@](#): > > And who would have taught it to him? No slave would have dared and he did not associate with them, being Royal. Learning Hebrew was outlawed in Egypt. This is pure speculation on your part. According to Exodus, Moses was raised by his own mother (since his sister offered to find the Egyptian princess a Hebrew wet nurse). He could easily have been taught his (literally) mother tongue in that scenario. There is no reference in the Bible to the Hebrew language being banned. (And while the English banned Irish and the slave-holders of the U.S. South forbade African languages, that has _not_ been the tradition of all societies: the Romans, for example, allowed their Greek and Egyptian and Gaullic slaves to speak their own languages; the various Mesopotamian empires also generally did not force their captured nations to speak Assyrian, Babylonian, Hittite, etc. If you do not have specific evidence that Hebrew was banned, you do not have the right to interject that speculation into this discussion. As to the one document that discusses the speech of Moses: Ex 4:11-12, Moses is trying to get out of God’s orders and protests that he does not speak well. > [@](#): > > Then the Lord said to him, “Who has made man’s mouth? Who makes him dumb or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the Lord? Now therefore go, and I will be with your mouth and teach you what you shall speak.” You can, of course, dismiss Exodus as “just stories,” but until you provide other documents, those are the only stories we have regarding this event. You know, John, if you’re going to pick at everything you choose to not believe, you can’t simply make up the rules as you go along. Claiming that Moses could not associate with the Hebrews when he was raised by his own mother or that the Hebrew language was banned when you have no evidence of that happening does not create an impression that you are a dispassionate student of this event. * * * Tom~ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jews-persecuted/17400.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jews-persecuted/17400.md?page=6)