# Why are Jews still hated so much around the world outside of the U.S.? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 19, 2012, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jews-still-hated-so-much-around-the-world-outside-of-the-u-s/635131 "2012-09-19T01:36:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jews-still-hated-so-much-around-the-world-outside-of-the-u-s/635131/101 "2012-09-20T14:56:16Z")
You are free to hold anti-Semitic views in defiance of the evidence that should show you the error of such thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jews-still-hated-so-much-around-the-world-outside-of-the-u-s/635131/102 "2012-09-20T14:57:42Z")
I don’t think the KJV is a very good source when you’re talking about specifically Jewish doctrine. On the other hand, I don’t know what the mainstream translations of the Torah are. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jews-still-hated-so-much-around-the-world-outside-of-the-u-s/635131/103 "2012-09-20T15:00:32Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > I am 100% sure that you are correct in saying that this is the way modern Jews interpret the passage in question. However, it’s not exactly right to call the “chosen people” thing a “slander.” > > Here’s the original passage, in context, as translated via the King James Version of the Bible: > > [Deuteronomy 7:1-8](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%207:1-8&version=KJV) > > I don’t see how you can interpret that passage any other way than “God has chosen you! You’re number 1!” It seems to me that the “special burden” interpretation is something of a gloss on the original language. > > Again, I am not saying modern Jews regard themselves as God’s best pals. Just saying that such understanding by some non-Jews may be a **mis** understanding of how modern Jews think, but it’s hard to call it a “slander” when it is based on some pretty clear scriptural language. > > “Slander” implies an intentional distortion. Interpreting what modern Jews believe by looking at stuff in Joshua (rather than at what actual modern Jews say or do) is anachronistic. It is also, sadly, a common theme in anti-Semitic writings. I don’t think you are disagreeing here, but what I’d add is that a lot of anti-Semites quite deliberately display ‘selective deafness’ when confronted with the (actual) interpretation of (real, modern) Jews - insist, in fact, that modern Jews are likely to behave like Joshua in Genesis given the chance. To my mind, that is in fact “slander”. Sort of like how modern Englishment are likely to go all Beowulf on us. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jews-still-hated-so-much-around-the-world-outside-of-the-u-s/635131/104 "2012-09-20T15:00:45Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I don’t think the KJV is a very good source when you’re talking about specifically Jewish theology. I did look at other translations. [They were all essentially the same](http://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Deuteronomy%207:6). ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jews-still-hated-so-much-around-the-world-outside-of-the-u-s/635131/105 "2012-09-20T15:05:34Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > I did look at other translations. [They were all essentially the same](http://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Deuteronomy%207:6). What you are missing (no fault to you) is that modern Judaism is not, in fact, based solely on the OT - in whatever translation. It is based also on the oral law, which is recorded in the Talmud and Midrash. > [@](#): > > Although the Hebrew term “Torah” is often translated as “Law”, its actual meaning is “Instruction” or “Teaching”. Rabbinic Judaism holds that the books of the Tanakh were transmitted in parallel with an oral tradition, as relayed by God to Moses and from him handed on to the scholarly and other religious leaders of each generation. Thus, in Judaism, the “Written Instruction” (Torah she-bi-khtav תורה שבכתב) comprises the Torah and the rest of the Tanakh; the “Oral Instruction” (Torah she-be’al peh תורה שבעל פה) was ultimately recorded in the Talmud (lit. “Learning”) and Midrashim (lit. “Interpretations”). The interpretation of the Oral Torah is thus considered as the authoritative reading of the Written Torah. Further, Halakha (lit. “The Path”, frequently translated as “Jewish Law”) is based on a “Written Instruction” together with an “Oral Instruction”. Jewish law and tradition is thus not based on a literal reading of the Tanakh, but on the combined oral and written tradition. > **[Oral law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oral_law#Oral_law_in_Judaism)** > > An oral law is a code of conduct in use in a given culture, religion or community application, by which a body of rules of human behaviour is transmitted by oral tradition and effectively respected, or the single rule that is orally transmitted. > Many cultures have an oral law, while most contemporary legal systems have a formal written organisation. The oral tradition (from the Latin tradere = to transmit) is the typical instrument of transmission of the oral codes or, in a more general sense, i... What you have in the OT are, in part, holy legends, myths and history. It is not a straight-on guide to what “Jews” actually believe. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jews-still-hated-so-much-around-the-world-outside-of-the-u-s/635131/106 "2012-09-20T15:08:45Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > 1st one is code for: I’m not just _better_ than you. I’m _better with a reason_. God told me. > > 2nd one is similar to: You can also be spared life. Just accept Islam. > > :rolleyes: I know it’s madness for me to wade into this, but what the heck. The above quote is pretty far off the mark on both points. The chosen people thing isn’t about being better. It’s more akin to people who chose to become priests because they had a calling from god. It’s not quite the same because you are born into it rather than choosing the priesthood, but it’s closer to that than it is to your take on it. No one thinks Priest, or Nuns or other people who have “hear the call” think they are better than the people who haven’t. Same basic idea…sort of kind of. The Jewish relationship with God, the entire Jewish perspective on God is really pretty different than the gentile view in terms of paradigm. You can’t really view it through a Christian perspective and get anything like a proper picture, and I personally think that’s one of the big reasons for continued anti-semitism. People tend to dislike and fear other people with different world views. The second part is you not understanding what was being said, because it is nothing at all like saying “You can also be spared life. Just accept Islam.” It’s nearly the opposite. It’s saying that unless you were born Jewish you don’t have to worry about following all the stupid shit we Jews have to do. Just be a good guy (ie follow the Noahid laws, which are pretty basic and even less extensive than the 10 commandments. Don’t steal, don’t murder, don’t blaspheme, don’t commit incest or adultary, off the top of my head. Stuff you are probably not doing anyway) and God will love you. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jews-still-hated-so-much-around-the-world-outside-of-the-u-s/635131/107 "2012-09-20T15:09:28Z")
**Malthus** , I am not offering an opinion on what modern Jews believe. I am trying to explain where Christians, reading the Bible, get the “chosen people” idea. And why, in my opinion, it is not a “slander” because they have a reasonable basis for that understanding. A misunderstanding is not a slander. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jews-still-hated-so-much-around-the-world-outside-of-the-u-s/635131/108 "2012-09-20T15:14:23Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > **Malthus** , I am not offering an opinion on what modern Jews believe. I am trying to explain where Christians, reading the Bible, get the “chosen people” idea. And why, in my opinion, it is not a “slander” because they have a reasonable basis for that understanding. A misunderstanding is not a slander. It is if one maliciously persists in it in the face of expaination to the contrary, no? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jews-still-hated-so-much-around-the-world-outside-of-the-u-s/635131/109 "2012-09-20T15:16:10Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > It is if one maliciously persists in it in the face of explanation to the contrary, no? Yes. But most Christians who say it have never _heard_ such an explanation. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jews-still-hated-so-much-around-the-world-outside-of-the-u-s/635131/110 "2012-09-20T15:24:35Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > Yes. But most Christians who say it have never _heard_ such an explanation. Those who spread the notion usually do so deliberately - to stir up hatred of Jews. I can’t believe those types know literally _nothing_ about Jews, and are simply riled up by an innocent error they happened to pick up from their spare-time readings of the Book of Genesis. Isn’t it rather more likely that those who hate are spreading falsehoods deliberately (or indifferent to the truth) based on age-old anti-Semitic standard canards? How else would the average person (who is not in point of fact likely to be all that conversant with the OT) even going to make the connection? ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jews-still-hated-so-much-around-the-world-outside-of-the-u-s/635131/111 "2012-09-20T15:40:52Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > (ie follow the Noahid laws, which are pretty basic and even less extensive than the 10 commandments. Don’t steal, don’t murder, don’t blaspheme, don’t commit incest or adultary, off the top of my head. Stuff you are probably not doing anyway) . I looked up the Noahide laws in case anyone was interested. I got most of them right but missed a couple. Don’t commit idolitry, establish a system of justice in your society (or live in a society with a system of justice rather than just living in a world of vigilantism), kill animals before butchering them for food and don’t eat animals that were killed by other wild animals. Again, it’s all pretty much stuff you are going to be doing anyway unless you like eating the flesh of still living creatures, dispensing vigilante justice, and sleeping with your Mom. Blasphemy and Idolitry can get sort of tricky depending on your interpretation I suppose. [Wiki link](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noahide_laws). If you google the term you can find several hilariously anti-Semitic websites on the dangers of the horrible Noahide laws. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jews-still-hated-so-much-around-the-world-outside-of-the-u-s/635131/112 "2012-09-20T15:41:05Z")
**Malthus** , I think you have a misconception. Most Christians I have known do not hurl “chosen people” as some sort of sarcastic epithet. Most people first encountered the notion in church, and they are not about to second-guess God, if he has (in their understanding) chosen the Jews as his favorite people. That, and _not_ eschatological obsession, is a big part of why evangelical Christians tend to be so supportive of Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jews-still-hated-so-much-around-the-world-outside-of-the-u-s/635131/113 "2012-09-20T15:53:18Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > **Malthus** , I think you have a misconception. Most Christians I have known do not hurl “chosen people” as some sort of sarcastic epithet. Most people first encountered the notion in church, and they are not about to second-guess God, if he has (in their understanding) chosen the Jews as his favorite people. That, and _not_ eschatological obsession, is a big part of why evangelical Christians tend to be so supportive of Israel. I’m not aiming my comment at “most Christians”, but at those who portray the “chosen people” theme as sinister. As in the topic of this thread (Why are Jews still hated … ?). The problem here is that some Christian demoninations, ironically enough, take the OT far more literally than Jews do - some Christians sects, primarily evangelical, are more likely to be into Biblical literalism. Such folks may well have religious reasons to disregard Jewish interpretations of the OT (even if they have ever heard of them). However, the prominence of the “chosen people” theme in Christian polemics far predates evangelical Christianity, which is itself a relatively recent phenominon. And the use Christians tended to make of it was not positive - it fed into the narrative of the nasty Jews, thinking they were better than everyone. However, this does point to a recurring irony - that anti-Semitic tropes are often a two-edged sword: the same themes and stereotypes can be cited for both liking and hating Jews. See the article above on Japanese anti-Semitism. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jews-still-hated-so-much-around-the-world-outside-of-the-u-s/635131/114 "2012-09-20T15:58:06Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Er…yes, if you claim that blacks are dumber than whites, that whites have smaller penises than blacks and that Asians are smarter than both then yes, you are being racist. Huh? There are studies and everything showing that blacks, on average, have larger flaccid penises than whites. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jews-still-hated-so-much-around-the-world-outside-of-the-u-s/635131/115 "2012-09-20T16:26:21Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > No one thinks Priest, or Nuns or other people who have “hear the call” think they are better than the people who haven’t. Are you telling me they are putting on a uniform and a show for nothing? Come on now. Their whole higher standing in society is based on the idea of their “dedication” and “closeness” to an invisible deity and the distinction with respect to ordinary people. What’s next you will claim to attenuate the issue being discussed? That religion has no impact on a given society culture? That clerical class in a given society is only for a show? I don’t know man, this is some basic history stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jews-still-hated-so-much-around-the-world-outside-of-the-u-s/635131/116 "2012-09-20T16:34:14Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Those who spread the notion usually do so deliberately - to stir up hatred of Jews. I can’t believe those types know literally _nothing_ about Jews, and are simply riled up by an innocent error they happened to pick up from their spare-time readings of the Book of Genesis. I went to Anglican schools as a child and I picked it up from the forced Bible readings. I didn’t think it meant Jews were dicks, though; I thought it meant Christians were weird for retaining the Old Testament. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jews-still-hated-so-much-around-the-world-outside-of-the-u-s/635131/117 "2012-09-20T16:41:18Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Are you telling me they are putting on a uniform and a show for nothing? > > Come on now. Their whole higher standing in society is based on the idea of their “dedication” and “closeness” to an invisible deity and the distinction with respect to ordinary people. > > What’s next you will claim to attenuate the issue being discussed? That religion has no impact on a given society culture? That clerical class in a given society is only for a show? > > I don’t know man, this is some basic history stuff. Eh, I guess. In a way it’s probably true that you can’t separate yourself without claiming special status. Like I said, it’s a worldview type of thing though and I guess don’t really know how to explain it properly because the idea is very much to separate but not to elevate Jews. Maybe nuns and monks are better examples than priests since the priesthood is fraught with abuses of power. Maybe there just isn’t a proper analogy in gentile society. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jews-still-hated-so-much-around-the-world-outside-of-the-u-s/635131/118 "2012-09-20T16:59:29Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > it is not a “slander” because they have a reasonable basis for that understanding. [You are ignorant of the definition of the word you’re using.](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/slander) Believing that something is true does not change the fact that it’s slander. Of course, your claim that they have a reasonable basis for that understanding is more than a bit odd. “A bronze age book says something, therefore millenia later, disparate traditions of people who follow multiple sects based on that and other books, oral tradition as well as contemporary interpretations thereof, must believe exactly what it says.” That’s reasonable? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jews-still-hated-so-much-around-the-world-outside-of-the-u-s/635131/119 "2012-09-20T17:05:00Z")
Well, maybe. Republicans all over the country demonize Muslims by cherry-picking violent quotes from the Qu’ran, and it doesn’t get them in trouble. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jews-still-hated-so-much-around-the-world-outside-of-the-u-s/635131/120 "2012-09-20T17:21:23Z")
Folks who do that are slandering Muslims. The fact that it doesn’t get them into trouble is a problem. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jews-still-hated-so-much-around-the-world-outside-of-the-u-s/635131.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-jews-still-hated-so-much-around-the-world-outside-of-the-u-s/635131.md?page=7)