# Why ARE journalists so stupid? And what are the implications? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 7, 2013, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-journalists-so-stupid-and-what-are-the-implications/646370 "2013-01-07T17:48:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-journalists-so-stupid-and-what-are-the-implications/646370/61 "2013-01-09T15:48:43Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > Most “journalists” believe it is more important to impact public opinion than it is to report facts. I’d ask for a cite, but… > [@](#): > > That’s not a brand new phenomena btw. This is actually true, but of course it’s true for the exact opposite reason you say: the idea of objective and unbiased journalism is relatively new, and it’s certainly not what motivated pamphleteers or Hearst and Pulitzer. ---
**Author:** ![Sigene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df788c/32.png) [@Sigene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sigene)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-journalists-so-stupid-and-what-are-the-implications/646370/62 "2013-01-09T16:33:36Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > My opinion re the basic question … > > Most “journalists” believe it is more important to impact public opinion than it is to report facts. That’s not a brand new phenomena btw. I do agree with this though I don’t have a cite. It really is human nature though, pretty much everyone wants to make a (what they see as) positive impact on the world. I remember watching a journalism panel on PBS years ago (Late 80’s?). I’m pretty sure it was James Kilpatrick who lamented that: “Journalists used to be ‘truth tellers’ but now they have changed to ‘dragon slayers.’” WHile this is an opinion, I can agree that many journalists feel that way and want to take up the mantle of ‘dragon slayer’ as opposed to ‘truth teller’. ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-journalists-so-stupid-and-what-are-the-implications/646370/63 "2013-01-09T17:19:55Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > I love that section. To this day, whenever I make a road trip of any sort, I’m always pointing “D.O.R.” to my travelling companions. One of the first reptile collecting trips I made outside of my home state was with a friend who was studying biology in college, and who was interested in collecting any D.O.R. (dead on road) specimens that were in decent enough shape for the college preserved collection. Seeing those initials in McPhee’s book so many years later made me feel like I was in that car again in eastern North Carolina, scanning the road for snakes. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-journalists-so-stupid-and-what-are-the-implications/646370/64 "2013-01-09T17:53:42Z")
Yes, I truly think that Wolf Blitzer and the Fox crowd are the epitome of stupid propagandists. I won’t dispute adding others to the list. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-journalists-so-stupid-and-what-are-the-implications/646370/65 "2013-01-09T19:30:13Z")
To some extent, contemporary journalism education is responsible for the lack of depth of knowledge. Although journalism majors are required to minor in another subject in college, that minor is likely to be a softball like music or underwater basketweaving than in anything substantive like a hard or social science. This is wonderful if you plan to be a music critic, but it’s useless for the general assignment reporter sent to cover a city council meeting. And it’s not like journalism itself is a difficult major. Journalism classes in college are skills-based. Students aren’t taught to think critically about what they’re reporting; they’re supposed to ask questions and write what they heard. So they can be told that 1+1 = 3, and as long as the reporter doesn’t know any better, he’ll write that 1+1 = 3 and not question it. Finally, schools, like everywhere else, follow the money. Most “journalism” majors want to get into PR or some kind of Internet-based marketing and advertising; few want to get into traditional journalism, so some colleges are dismantling their journalism programs in favor of PR and “new media”. They have no clue about reporting or reporters, or the history of their profession, or the ethics of their profession; they’re content to learn to pass along what they’re handed. I weep for the future of journalism. MsRobyn, BA in communication/journalism and MS, communication studies ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-journalists-so-stupid-and-what-are-the-implications/646370/66 "2013-01-09T19:37:00Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > On one hand, it’s true that sometimes referring to someone else’s work (which is fine so long as attributed) will transmit and amplify an error. It is also true that details on the same story (some times “details” along the lines of changing “less taxes” to “no taxes”, cf. the current brouhaha over Depardieu). That should say “details on the same story vary a lot when reported by different sources”. _goes off to write 100 times “I shall check that I’m not missing half a sentence.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-journalists-so-stupid-and-what-are-the-implications/646370/67 "2013-01-09T21:09:28Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > How “wrong” are we talking, though? In the example you follow up with (quoted below), from the information you provide the only (arguable) error appears to be in the intro, with the rest of the story accurate. > > Without knowing the specifics of the story, it’s entirely possibly the intro was changed by a sub-editor or even the paper’s editor. It happens to all journos at some point - usually improving the story, but not always. > > Considering the family said they would miss your friend while he was serving overseas, even though I’m not in the US I can absolutely see why whoever wrote the intro thought it would make sense to go with “Not as good a Thanksgiving” approach, especially since to the average person (ie the newspaper’s readers), having a family member posted overseas on military duty is not something considered a cause for celebration. > > Would I go with that intro? No. But the fact someone did doesn’t automatically make all journalists stupid, liars, or out to further an agenda. The family was not interviewed only the soldier. We didn’t leave until the following June. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-journalists-so-stupid-and-what-are-the-implications/646370/68 "2013-01-09T21:29:23Z")
> [@rowrrbazzle](#): > > Gee, and I’ve heard journalists tout their layers of editors and fact-checkers. So it really works the other way! It can be both. Do reporters typically see what the editors do to their story? I almost always get to see the edit to my column. Most of the changes are improvements, but there are always a few cases where the editor didn’t get it and totally destroys the sense. So even if your editor is really good (as my current one is) you still have to pay attention. I suspect science articles are probably more at risk of distortion than ones about the zoning board. BTW, our local rag outsourced some editing to India. Fine, except for when they thought Oregon was in the Midwest … ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-journalists-so-stupid-and-what-are-the-implications/646370/69 "2013-01-09T22:03:42Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > BTW, our local rag outsourced some editing to India. Fine, except for when they thought Oregon was in the Midwest … It is. It is on the West Coast in the middle between Oregon and California. ---
**Author:** ![solosam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@solosam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solosam)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-journalists-so-stupid-and-what-are-the-implications/646370/70 "2013-01-09T22:22:14Z")
> **[Colorado suspect James Holmes took creepy self-portraits hours before the...](https://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/updates-preliminary-hearing-colorado-shooting-suspect-james-holmes-142541042.html?.tsrc=yahoo)** > > \[Updated at 2:30 p.m. ET/12:30 p.m. MT\] CENTENNIAL, Colo.— Photos recovered from James Holmes’ iPhone show the alleged gunman posing with weapons and making creepy faces in the weeks and hours before the shooting massacre at an Aurora movie theater.... Here is a good example. The suspect was posing with an “assault like rifle.” What is that? A new kind of gun that is almost but not quite a kinda sorta assault rifle? I’m not sure the writer would be able to explain what he meant by that. ---
**Author:** ![Garfield226](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Garfield226](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garfield226)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-journalists-so-stupid-and-what-are-the-implications/646370/71 "2013-01-09T22:26:10Z")
> [@solosam](#): > > [Colorado suspect James Holmes took creepy self-portraits hours before the theater shootings](http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/updates-preliminary-hearing-colorado-shooting-suspect-james-holmes-142541042.html?.tsrc=yahoo) > > Here is a good example. The suspect was posing with an “assault like rifle.” What is that? A new kind of gun that is almost but not quite a kinda sorta assault rifle? I’m not sure the writer would be able to explain what he meant by that. Complaining that you’re not getting top-flight journalism from Yahoo! is like complaining that your McDonalds hamburger is sloppily made. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-journalists-so-stupid-and-what-are-the-implications/646370/72 "2013-01-10T07:44:09Z")
> [@MsRobyn](#): > > Finally, schools, like everywhere else, follow the money. Most “journalism” majors want to get into PR or some kind of Internet-based marketing and advertising; few want to get into traditional journalism, so some colleges are dismantling their journalism programs in favor of PR and “new media”. A huge part of the issue, in Australia at least, is they _can’t_ get into traditional journalism _because there aren’t any jobs for them_. The two major print media companies have been having massive layouts, reorganisations and restructures lately and the edited highlights are there are now way more qualified journalists (both newly graduated and experienced) than there are - or probably ever will be again - jobs for them. > [@solosam](#): > > Here is a good example. The suspect was posing with an “assault like rifle.” What is that? A new kind of gun that is almost but not quite a kinda sorta assault rifle? If I had to hazard a guess, I’d say “Pretty much, except for the new part - it sounds like the sort of rifle the military would use when storming enemy positions on the battlefield” ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-journalists-so-stupid-and-what-are-the-implications/646370/73 "2013-01-10T15:50:01Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Do reporters typically see what the editors do to their story? It depends. There’s usually a back and forth, but they won’t always see the finished story. > [@](#): > > BTW, our local rag outsourced some editing to India. Fine, except for when they thought Oregon was in the Midwest … That’s pretty depressing. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-journalists-so-stupid-and-what-are-the-implications/646370/74 "2013-01-10T17:07:19Z")
I’ve been following this thread with some interest because I’ve not only been a journalist, but I’ve been a public relations spokesperson who’s worked with journalists and followed stories with great self-interest. I have a 40 year background and IMHO, most journalists mostly get it right most of the time. And when they get it wrong, it’s usually for one of three reasons. 1. It’s a stupid brain fart. Just yesterday a local TV reporter mentioned something that happened “at the corner of Goodfellow and Union Station.” Goodfellow doesn’t go anywhere near Union Station, but it does cross Union Avenue. In fact, that’s what the script said, the reporter just read it wrong. 2. The communication with the story source got garbled. People aren’t as good at expressing themselves as they think they area. I can’t even begin to count the number of people I’ve interviewed who insist they said X when they said Y – and I had it on tape. I’ve frequently had arguments with engineering types who insist that when they say “9.937504” and I say “almost 10” that I’m wrong. I’m sorry to take shortcuts and offend your sense of accuracy, but if I say “9.937504” someone will hear it as “9”, someone else will hear it as “99” and someone will just hear “4”, but if I say “almost 10” they’re more likely to hear “almost 10” or at least “10.” As for not knowing what the governor was talking about with the term “parole,” why is the poster complaining that the reporter should have known what the governor meant, rather than complaining that the governor used a technical loophole to sound like he was tough on crime? This goes with what **Ms. Robyn** noted: “Students aren’t taught to think critically about what they’re reporting; they’re supposed to ask questions and write what they heard. So they can be told that 1+1 = 3, and as long as the reporter doesn’t know any better, he’ll write that 1+1 = 3 and not question it.” 1. And finally, never forget that **people see and hear what they want to see and hear**. Let’s look at a couple of examples in this thread. > [@Saintly Loser](#): > > Journalist who is a friend of a friend contacts me about story she wants to write. I agree to be a source, because I believe it’s an important story. I ask for and receive assurances of confidentiality. Story comes out. In the very first paragraph, I’m easily identifiable. Not by name, but anyone at the company that was the subject of the story could (and did) put two and two together. So the reporter didn’t identify **Saintly Loser** , but someone in the company figured it out. That doesn’t sound to me like it’s the reporter’s fault. > [@billfish678](#): > > I’ll also throw this in. Was a major player in a very minor story. Not thrilled about it honestly (I didn’t WANT the publicity for sure). But, hey this a chance to edgeumacate the public about something they could probably use the edgumacting about so I sucked it up. > > But there was one issue. A certain fact or two was NOT to be in the article. This particular fact did not add anything to the article. Photographer AND reporter easily agreed to this. > > Guess fucking what? Said fact was in the article (first damn paragraph IIRC). So a reporter writing against a deadline put in something that you said shouldn’t be in there. I notice you didn’t say said reporter got it _wrong_. Why did you say it if you didn’t want it to be reported. > [@Loach](#): > > When the article came out the first line was, “This Thanksgiving there will be little to be thankful for at the Smith house.” Even though the reporter got his quotes mostly right, that first line poisoned the article and was the opposite of what my friend said. With all due respect\*\* Loach\*\*, that’s your interpretation. > [@solosam](#): > > Here is a good example. The suspect was posing with an “assault like rifle.” What is that? A new kind of gun that is almost but not quite a kinda sorta assault rifle? I’m not sure the writer would be able to explain what he meant by that. It’s probably short for “The suspect was posing with a scary-looking gun that most people would think is a machine gun or something but I can’t identify the model from the photo I saw and it sure looks like an assault rifle but if I flatly say it’s an assault rifle someone will complain that what he was holding is the non-assault version so I’ll throw a weasel word in there.” ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-journalists-so-stupid-and-what-are-the-implications/646370/75 "2013-01-10T17:53:23Z")
In my experience (a small town newspaper reporter a thousand years ago), newsmakers granting interviews are the ones with an agenda, not the reporters. I’ve been yelled at by readers for something that I quoted someone saying, because they thought I should have known that what he was saying was inaccurate. Sorry, my job was to get both sides, not carry the ball for your team. ---
**Author:** ![Garfield226](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Garfield226](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garfield226)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-journalists-so-stupid-and-what-are-the-implications/646370/76 "2013-01-10T18:03:14Z")
> [@Red\_Wiggler](#): > > I’ve been yelled at by readers for something that I quoted someone saying, because they thought I should have known that what he was saying was inaccurate. Sorry, my job was to get both sides, not carry the ball for your team. To be fair, I think fact checking of quotes is a responsibility of journalists that _has_ been largely abdicated (if they ever even regularly did it in the first place). Journalism shouldn’t be only stenography. That’s a part of it: Governor so-and-so said “The new income tax rate of 4% should be more than enough to cover the deficit.” Quote him saying it. But it’s a valid function of a responsible journalist to go on and say: “The deficit is X, the increase in income from the new tax rate would be Y.” Especially if Y is less than X. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-journalists-so-stupid-and-what-are-the-implications/646370/77 "2013-01-10T18:18:12Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > So a reporter writing against a deadline put in something that you said shouldn’t be in there. I notice you didn’t say said reporter got it _wrong_. Why did you say it if you didn’t want it to be reported. > " I didn’t SAY a thing. And the reporter and photographer agreed to it. It was something like this. Local rare frog endangered. Here’s how we can help by doing X, Y, and Z by educating the public. Reporter and photographer come along to Farmer Bobs pond that still has some of the beautiful rare frogs. Photographer gets pics of the frogs. Reporter interviews us local “experts” to get some good quotes. But Farmer Bob doesn’t want people knowing about those frogs being on HIS property. I don’t think it takes a genius to figure out why. He doesn’t even wanted to be named in person. THOSE were the conditions of being led to Farmer Bob’s pond by the experts and being allowed on the property in the first place. Fuck that reporter. Or the editor. Or probably both. And what does a deadline have to do with it? I’m in a hurry so I break my agreements? Assholes. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-journalists-so-stupid-and-what-are-the-implications/646370/78 "2013-01-10T22:06:30Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > So the reporter didn’t identify **Saintly Loser** , but someone in the company figured it out. That doesn’t sound to me like it’s the reporter’s fault. It probably isn’t. It’s unfortunate, but in a situation like that it’s on the source to specify what information about him can and can’t be used. It’s the reporter’s job to disclose as much as is possible and it’s not the reporter’s job to guess what information an anonymous individual’s coworkers might be able to use to identify him. > [@](#): > > With all due respect\*\* Loach\*\*, that’s your interpretation. It sounds like a stupid and cliche lede in any event. It may not be factually wrong, but it’s bland and if the family said the opposite, there’s no reason to assert a comment about their emotional state as a fact. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-journalists-so-stupid-and-what-are-the-implications/646370/79 "2013-01-10T22:57:02Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > THOSE were the conditions of being led to Farmer Bob’s pond by the experts and being allowed on the property in the first place. > > Fuck that reporter. Or the editor. Or probably both. > > And what does a deadline have to do with it? I’m in a hurry so I break my agreements? > > Assholes. Sounds like the editor insisted that the location of the frogs be identified in the story. And time limitations compressed the entire process of the reporter sifting out unnecessary or not-for-print information, having a discussion with the editor about why the location shouldn’t be mentioned and either getting the editor to agree or calling Farmer Bob and telling him what was happening. [QUOTE=Garfield226] To be fair, I think fact checking of quotes is a responsibility of journalists that _has_ been largely abdicated (if they ever even regularly did it in the first place). Journalism shouldn’t be only stenography. That’s a part of it: Governor so-and-so said “The new income tax rate of 4% should be more than enough to cover the deficit.” Quote him saying it. But it’s a valid function of a responsible journalist to go on and say: “The deficit is X, the increase in income from the new tax rate would be Y.” Especially if Y is less than X. [/quote] In a perfect world, maybe. In this world, however, the situation you outlined would result in the governor accusing the reporter of injecting his own “facts” into the story; the governor’s opponents saying the deficit will be Z instead of Y which only proves the dishonesty of both the governor and the reporter; and readers accusing the reporter of showing political bias by daring to contradict the governor, who certainly knows this stuff better than the reporter. Daily journalism (as opposed to analysis or commentary) is about getting information in and pushing it back out. As I said, most journalists mostly get it right most of the time. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-journalists-so-stupid-and-what-are-the-implications/646370/80 "2013-01-10T23:09:58Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > Sounds like the editor insisted that the location of the frogs be identified in the story. > > And time limitations compressed the entire process of the reporter sifting out unnecessary or not-for-print information, having a discussion with the editor about why the location shouldn’t be mentioned and either getting the editor to agree or calling Farmer Bob and telling him what was happening.. Half the story was about the frogs being endangered due to ignorant locals. There was no NEED to explain the secrecy. That WAS a major part of the story. Story synopsis: Endangered Frogs. Locals using them for bass bait and selling them to pet stores. Some locals just think killing is good fun. Experts worried about said frogs. Enough that they prefer not to reveal where said frogs are. This reporter had to gain the trust of experts to go see said frogs. BTW, here is where Farmer Bobs pond is (except that part is first). Either the editor was a dick or a moron. Or the reporter was a dick or a coward or carelessly stupid . Or perhaps both were some mishmash of all those. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-journalists-so-stupid-and-what-are-the-implications/646370.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-journalists-so-stupid-and-what-are-the-implications/646370.md?page=5)