# Why are lesbians so serious and dour? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 28, 2008, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-lesbians-so-serious-and-dour/457919 "2008-07-28T16:18:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2008, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-lesbians-so-serious-and-dour/457919/41 "2008-07-28T20:17:00Z")
[QUOTE=Chronos] Am I the only one who thinks this is a selection bias? **elmwood** thinks that lesbians are serious and dour, so it’s only the serious and dour ladies that he considers “obviously” lesbians. The high-spirited lesbians he meets, he doesn’t add to his data set, since he doesn’t realize that they’re lesbians. Likewise, he probably sees a good number of serious and dour pairs of woman who are actually just heterosexual friends, but mistakenly classifies them as lesbians. [/QUOTE] +1 Why are Americans so loud? ---
**Author:** ![Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troy_mcclure_sf/32/4150_2.png) [@Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troy_McClure_SF)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2008, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-lesbians-so-serious-and-dour/457919/42 "2008-07-28T20:31:30Z")
Some of the posts in this thread (including the OP) make me scared to ever leave San Francisco. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2008, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-lesbians-so-serious-and-dour/457919/43 "2008-07-28T20:37:29Z")
I once hit on a cute outgoing 30-something woman with short hair, until she told me what her preference was (and no it wasn’t raspberry sherbet). ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2008, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-lesbians-so-serious-and-dour/457919/44 "2008-07-28T20:49:24Z")
[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole] However, there does seem to be a militant contingent among lesbians. Among gay men I have yet to find one who has an issue with women. They love women, they love hanging out with women. However, there seem to be more than a small percentage of the lesbian community who feel oppressed from any number of corners including straight men or just all males (also general women issues such as the glass ceiling, also being homosexual, also potentially looks [too feminine, too masculine], etc.). In short they seem to have a major chip on their shoulders and it shows clearly in their outward demeanor. [/QUOTE] Those who are asking for cites to the proposition in the OP are being unrealistic (I suspect willfully so). The perception of the OP is inherently perceptive. What would be the scientific test for “dourness?” Yet most of us know it when we see it. Discussion of the proposition **W-a-M** brings up is dicey because it calls into question lesbians’ motivations. Well, the very use of the word “motivations” is problematic because we’re not officially permitted to posit any volitional component to sexual preference, er, immutable-orientation. Similarly, speculating that some “lesbians” went down that road not out of a burning desire for Sapphic sexual antics but out of a dislike of sex with men, or of sex in general, or due to earlier-in-life traumatization, will be frowned upon even if it seems plausible. Women in general are diagnosed with depression at rates twice those of men. [http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/depression/MH00035](http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/depression/MH00035) And there is some suggestion lesbians are worse off than the gen. pop. > [@](#): > > The true prevalence of depression in this population is not clear. Some studies have found higher rates of depression in lesbians compared to heterosexual women, but others have not. (from [www.lesbianhealthinfo.com](http://www.lesbianhealthinfo.com)). ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2008, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-lesbians-so-serious-and-dour/457919/45 "2008-07-28T21:37:33Z")
Eh, dour personality (or at least mood) is certainly something that people can recognize. That’s not the question. The question is how (or whether) one can recognize lesbians. Personally, the only circumstances under which I would recognize any given woman as a lesbian are if, first, she tells me so, or second, if I see her engaged in an act of sexual attraction (kissing, fondling, overt ogling, etc.) with another woman. The first doesn’t come up in conversation too often, though, and as for the second, most people of any gender or orientation who are engaged in an act of sexual attraction are usually pretty cheerful at that moment. ---
**Author:** ![Unintentionally\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unintentionally_blank/32/5418_2.png) [@Unintentionally\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unintentionally_Blank)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2008, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-lesbians-so-serious-and-dour/457919/46 "2008-07-28T22:04:35Z")
[QUOTE=susan] _Why are men so stupid?_ See the problem with your question? [/QUOTE] Nope. And we agree with YOUR assessment, too. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2008, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-lesbians-so-serious-and-dour/457919/47 "2008-07-28T22:13:26Z")
[QUOTE=Attack from the 3rd dimension] +1 Why are Americans so loud? [/QUOTE] Because we all know the only reason foreigners don’t understand English is because we aren’t speaking loudly enough to them. And that’s something gay and straight Americans agree on! ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2008, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-lesbians-so-serious-and-dour/457919/48 "2008-07-28T22:14:26Z")
[QUOTE=kunilou] Because we all know the only reason foreigners don’t understand English is because we aren’t speaking loudly enough to them. And that’s something gay and straight Americans agree on! [/QUOTE] You also have to speak slowly and use lots of hand gestures. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2008, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-lesbians-so-serious-and-dour/457919/49 "2008-07-28T22:31:38Z")
[QUOTE=MissMossie] Yes, I am seriously saying that most lesbians do not evince many characteristically masculine personality traits. My real life experience would be myself, lesbians I’ve been friends with, lesbians I’ve known and not been friends with, and women I’ve met in passing that have made my gaydar go off. Yes, there is a subset of lesbians, generally referred to as “butch”, that do display personality traits more commonly associated with men, but they seem to be a minority. Because this is the section of the board for factual answers and because you seem to be making a statement you wish to be taken as factual, I would like a cite. Your real life experiences do not match my own, do you have anything less anecdotal as I cite? [/QUOTE] I don’t think **astro** (or the OP) is talking about the “butch” subset. I think they’re talking about women who let their hair go gray, keep it short and are not particularly animated. I’m not sure this is all that much more common among lesbians than straight women. In my own experience, it’s somewhat more common among lesbians, but then , the lesbians I know aren’t as afraid of aging as the straight women I know. ---
**Author:** ![bufftabby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/77aa72/32.png) [@bufftabby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bufftabby)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2008, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-lesbians-so-serious-and-dour/457919/50 "2008-07-28T22:52:54Z")
[QUOTE=elmwood] Yes, I know “perky” lesbians personally. Still, it seems like the percentage of “perky” lesbians is much smaller than that of heterosexual or **bisexual women**. [/QUOTE] Now you can tell _that_ just by looking, too? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2008, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-lesbians-so-serious-and-dour/457919/51 "2008-07-28T23:27:28Z")
> [@](#): > > I think they’re talking about women who let their hair go gray, keep it short and are not particularly animated. Who, the Dutch? ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2008, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-lesbians-so-serious-and-dour/457919/52 "2008-07-28T23:29:46Z")
[QUOTE=Huerta88] . . . What would be the scientific test for “dourness?” . . . [/QUOTE] A better question is what would you measure “dourness” in? These units of measurement get named after people. Angstroms. Joules. Newtons. Who would we name the measure of “dourness” for? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2008, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-lesbians-so-serious-and-dour/457919/53 "2008-07-28T23:43:38Z")
They’re just angry they haven’t found the right penis. I’m not sure an awful lot of lesbians are dour – most of the lesbians I know are delightfully witty, in the right company, but then they’re the types who can let sexism and homophobia roll off their backs, like racial minorities who can have a laugh rather than grow weary. I understand how a straight guy might get the impression that the lesbians he comes across are oddly cheerless if he is used to straight women being ‘ladylike,’ politely laughing at his jokes, giggling, flirting. Not that all straight women are like that, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2008, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-lesbians-so-serious-and-dour/457919/54 "2008-07-28T23:52:00Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] How many feminists does it take to change a light bulb? [/QUOTE] Five. One to change the lightbulb, two to complain about the violation of the socket, and two to secretly wish they were the socket. ---
**Author:** ![pinkfreud](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pinkfreud/32/17603_2.png) [@pinkfreud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinkfreud)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-lesbians-so-serious-and-dour/457919/55 "2008-07-29T00:01:41Z")
[QUOTE=Yllaria] A better question is what would you measure “dourness” in? These units of measurement get named after people. Angstroms. Joules. Newtons. Who would we name the measure of “dourness” for? [/QUOTE] Admittedly influenced by the this thread’s topic, I nominate [Alice B. Toklas](http://lts.brandeis.edu/research/archives-speccoll/findingguides/special/vechten/images/folder42/alicebtoklas11-5-194942-3.jpg). The Toklas Scale would rank dourness on levels from One Alice (slightly gloomy) to Five Alice (Marvin the robot from _Hitchhiker’s Guide_). ---
**Author:** ![Daffyd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/daffyd/32/8923_2.png) [@Daffyd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daffyd)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-lesbians-so-serious-and-dour/457919/56 "2008-07-29T01:03:30Z")
Yeah, that Ellen DeGeneres - she’s so serious and dour… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-lesbians-so-serious-and-dour/457919/57 "2008-07-29T02:26:19Z")
[QUOTE=MissMossie] Well, if one or two gay people say it’s so, then it must be. :rolleyes: [/QUOTE] Well, maybe it is just Chicago and I only have my personal experience to go on and several friends. My brother is gay and if I go out with him it is always at a gay bar and over the years this topic has come up numerous times in one fashion or another and the opinions among gay men have not varied. I also have two lesbian friends and occasionally have hung out with them at a lesbian bar in town (well I did, they have since moved). I can tell you that women walking in to the men’s gay bar are welcomed. No one even blinks, the more the merrier. Women can and do walk in there alone frequently (Sidetracks for those who know Chicago). In the lesbian bar (The Closet) I am made to feel uncomfortable. If not in tow with my female friends I would not dream of going in on my own. This is not just me, my friends have noted it too. FWIW I am a normal looking guy and not running around hitting on anyone…just hanging with my friends. It has never been overtly hostile but unmistakable nonetheless. Some other patrons are nice and friendly but not all. Anecdotal? Sure. But the difference is distinct. Come to Chicago and we can compare, you’ll notice it too. ---
**Author:** ![TheLoadedDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheLoadedDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLoadedDog)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-lesbians-so-serious-and-dour/457919/58 "2008-07-29T02:39:07Z")
Yeah. As a straight guy, maybe my gaydar is a bit lacking, so I’m not noticing the lipstick lesbians so much, but of the butch ones, they seem to be in two categories; the so-called “Man-haters” (my best friend, ironically is one of these - I am the only male she’ll let sit in her chair, and even then I suspect she’s not thrilled by it), and then there’s the “one of the boys” ones, who will hang out with the men, giving bear hugs, high fives, etc. And that’s all fine, except that when I meet one of these women for the first time, there is NO indication which type she’s going to be. Can be a bit tiresome after a time. Is she going to bite my head off or not? FTR, I’m not at all a flirty guy, especially not with people I don’t know. I’m kinda dour myself. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-lesbians-so-serious-and-dour/457919/59 "2008-07-29T02:40:03Z")
[QUOTE=pinkfreud] Admittedly influenced by the this thread’s topic, I nominate [Alice B. Toklas](http://lts.brandeis.edu/research/archives-speccoll/findingguides/special/vechten/images/folder42/alicebtoklas11-5-194942-3.jpg). The Toklas Scale would rank dourness on levels from One Alice (slightly gloomy) to Five Alice (Marvin the robot from _Hitchhiker’s Guide_). [/QUOTE] Exactly who I was going to recommend too! I agree that there is selection bias at work here. But I’ve certainly run into a few of these 10-Alice couples before. (5 Alices for each of them equals 10) I suspect that some of the outward dourness is actually a kind of defensiveness. These women have been ostracized their whole lives. They came of age before “lipstick lesbians,” “bi-curiousness,” and girl-on-girl scenes in practically every straight porn movie. When they were first coming out of the closet, being a lesbian wasn’t seen as cool or hot or sexy. It was seen as weird and gross. I’m not surprised that they feel uncomfortable out in the “straight world.” ---
**Author:** ![MissMossie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@MissMossie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MissMossie)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-lesbians-so-serious-and-dour/457919/60 "2008-07-29T02:43:33Z")
[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole] Well, maybe it is just Chicago and I only have my personal experience to go on and several friends. My brother is gay and if I go out with him it is always at a gay bar and over the years this topic has come up numerous times in one fashion or another and the opinions among gay men have not varied. I also have two lesbian friends and occasionally have hung out with them at a lesbian bar in town (well I did, they have since moved). I can tell you that women walking in to the men’s gay bar are welcomed. No one even blinks, the more the merrier. Women can and do walk in there alone frequently (Sidetracks for those who know Chicago). In the lesbian bar (The Closet) I am made to feel uncomfortable. If not in tow with my female friends I would not dream of going in on my own. This is not just me, my friends have noted it too. FWIW I am a normal looking guy and not running around hitting on anyone…just hanging with my friends. It has never been overtly hostile but unmistakable nonetheless. Some other patrons are nice and friendly but not all. Anecdotal? Sure. But the difference is distinct. Come to Chicago and we can compare, you’ll notice it too. [/QUOTE] I have no doubt that there are definite subsets of the lesbian community that are dour or manhaters or just plain unfriendly. It seems like the general viewpoint in this thread is that most lesbians are over the top serious people. That’s too broad a paintbrush to paint any group of people with. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-lesbians-so-serious-and-dour/457919.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-lesbians-so-serious-and-dour/457919.md?page=4)