# Why are "math people" this way? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 28, 2010, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-math-people-this-way/548357 "2010-07-28T20:10:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2010, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-math-people-this-way/548357/81 "2010-07-29T16:16:44Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > They should be using [Beamer](http://bitbucket.org/rivanvx/beamer/wiki/Home). You don’t get exactly as much control over little stuff as you would in Powerpoint, but you can make reasonably good looking presentations without too much work. I don’t know why it’s not better known. > [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Really? Even using Beamer? I’ve got to admit I’ve never seen a Powerpoint presentation that looks nice. I’ve never heard of Beamer before this thread, but to be fair I also haven’t worked with anyone who tried to make a LaTeX presentation for quite a while, so I’m a bit out of the loop. All I know is that the last time I did, it was way too wordy and equationy, and would have drawn criticism much like that in the OP. 🙂 But yeah, I’m not surprised that things have improved since last I checked in. I’m still sticking with Powerpoint, though. I’ve got mad PP skills. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2010, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-math-people-this-way/548357/82 "2010-07-29T16:19:17Z")
> [@statsman1982](#): > > Well, I just got another email and this time it was three words–“It’s looking good!” And you’re (those who mentioned this) right. It does mean a lot more coming from a parsimonious communicator such as he. I admit that, in retrospect, the email really wasn’t that harsh.’ > > As I mentioned in a post above, I think the reason I reacted the way I did was that the email came after a frustrating email back-and-forth where I couldn’t (seem) to get a straight answer because I wasn’t asking the right question. It was just sort of tip-of-the-iceberg. Email is a tough medium to give feedback on presentation materials. In the future, once you have a workable draft of your slides, I’d recommend asking him to sit down with you and just go through them together: you’ll get a lot more detailed, useful feedback then almost anyone is going to take the time to write into an email. ---
**Author:** ![raspberry\_hunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@raspberry\_hunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raspberry_hunter)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2010, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-math-people-this-way/548357/83 "2010-07-29T17:14:26Z")
Yay! I’m glad things are going better with your advisor. There’s nothing like getting praise that you KNOW means you did a good job. > [@statsman1982](#): > > So why is it perfectly acceptable for them to expect people to communicate their way (hey, they’re being efficient. Those who aren’t are fucking useless, right?) but when I express a preference for a different type of communication style, that’s just demanding too much of people? I just want to know what I’m allowed to express a preference for, in a socially acceptable manner, so as not to offend. As Lobot said, it’s perfectly acceptable for people in my technical/business environment to expect others to communicate this way, because it’s what everyone does. Now, when I go to church, that is _not_ the culture, and I pad my remarks with a lot more praise and fluffy nice things. And yes, expecting a different type of communication style is expecting too much of people. I would not expect my church friends to be brutally to the point (and would think it was reasonable for them to get upset if I used that sort of style), but neither would I expect effusive praise from my project manager for doing my job adequately. (Doing it superlatively is another thing entirely.) You can express a preference for whatever you want, but do be aware that just because it’s your preference doesn’t mean that it is right (or that it is wrong, for that matter… it’s just a preference). ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-math-people-this-way/548357/84 "2010-07-29T17:37:37Z")
> [@statsman1982](#): > > Here’s an example. I was looking at a website the other day that had a whole document on how to ask a question of the community. The gist was that the community will **only** answer the question asked. For example, if I asked: > > “Does anyone know why my router [lots of details here] isn’t working?” > > They would answer only, “Yes.” Because, technically, the question is yes/no. But anyone with an ounce of brains would tell you that the _real_ question is “If someone knows, will they tell me?” Well, technically speaking, “yes” is a valid answer to your rephrased question as well. (Sorry, I couldn’t help myself. I’ve been thumbing through my Douglas Hofstadter books again. :D) > [@](#): > > I went through this sort of “I’ll answer exactly what you ask me” shit in undergrad, and most recently this weekend in an email exchange. Four fucking years of it with an undergraduate degree in MIS and I’m getting it again. You mean, you entered graduate school in mathematics without a BS in the subject, and you’ve been able to get up to speed and keep up with the other grad students, to the point where you’re in line for a Ph.D.? Dude, you’re awesome. ---
**Author:** ![raspberry\_hunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@raspberry\_hunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raspberry_hunter)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2010, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-math-people-this-way/548357/85 "2010-07-29T17:44:22Z")
Heh. I just had to share: I just got my performance review in today and I got points for being more straightforward and assertive than I had been in previous years. My boss was saying things like "Yes, I noticed that you used to be all ‘So, it was great that you were able to do that task and I really appreciate it, and now would it be possible if it’s not too much trouble for you to do this other task?’ and now you’re more like ‘Okay, I see you finished that task, thanks, here’s another one.’ " I just thought that was interesting, given this thread… my boss said he liked it because it was much more professional. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2010, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-math-people-this-way/548357/86 "2010-07-29T17:45:43Z")
> [@GHO57](#): > > I’m impressed. I’ve never seen a 13 year old girl in a doctoral program… and in math as well; your parents must be very proud. (Mod hat off) I’m equally impressed that we appear to have a time traveler from 1994. You didn’t have to choose a handle in leetspeak; in fact you can even have spaces now! ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2010, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-math-people-this-way/548357/87 "2010-07-29T18:18:14Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > You mean, you entered graduate school in mathematics without a BS in the subject, I should have said, “without a BS in math, physical science or engineering”, as most undergraduates in science or engineering presumably learn almost as much math as an undergraduate in math would. By contrast, the MIS programs I’ve seen tend to be less technical and more business management related; also they’re generally offered by the B-schools rather than the engineering schools. So for you to have gotten far enough along in a graduate math program that your professor wants you to co-author papers with him is no shabby feat. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2010, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-math-people-this-way/548357/88 "2010-07-29T19:40:31Z")
> [@Martiju](#): > > I wonder if you’ve ever read [Berne’s theory of transactions](http://www.ericberne.com/transactional_analysis_description.htm) - it certainly opened my eyes to how much I sought approval from others, including my boss, instead of trying to interact on a peer-peer basis. I think you might be onto something here. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2010, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-math-people-this-way/548357/89 "2010-07-29T20:16:44Z")
> [@statsman1982](#): > > And again, as a result of something I’ve posted here on the Dope, I have this weird feeling that I’m completely alone in how I feel about things. If you’ve never had that feeling, it’s scary as hell. You’re not. I read your threads because you say some of the same stuff that goes through my head. Of course, it might be just you and me who think this way. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2010, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-math-people-this-way/548357/90 "2010-07-29T20:21:39Z")
> [@statsman1982](#): > > I’m not familiar with this rating system. The one paper I’ve submitted to a journal with my advisor just got a big fat “reject” on it, and some written comments that my advisor said “clearly showed they didn’t read the paper.” Authors don’t usually get to see the numbers, only the comments. Did none of the reviewers read the paper? Sometimes reviewers don’t get it - I’ve told the author of an accepted paper to ignore the comments of reviewer #3 because he clearly misunderstood. But if none of the reviewers got it I think the fault is in the writing, not them. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2010, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-math-people-this-way/548357/91 "2010-07-29T20:30:33Z")
I’ve noticed in grad school generally that at first there may be an issue of misunderstood expectations. My first postgraduate degree was an MLS; and one of the first courses you take in library school is descriptive cataloging. That’s basically just the standardized description of the item–author, title, corporate emanator, pagination, and so on, which is surprisingly far from trivial and has given rise to thick volumes of cataloging rules to facilitate uniform styles of author names, physical descriptions, and so on. So my first assignments came back with depressingly low marks, and, while I have enormous respect for the value of the profession, I still couldn’t help reproaching myself, “This is library school! How can I possibly not be able to do this?”. What I didn’t comprehend at first was that the prof wanted us to not only explain the application of whatever rules we were using in the examples, but also to physically write out the resulting catalog entry. Now I’m working on a second master’s in software engineering, which brings me to another thing I’ve noticed about graduate professors and advisors–you might first have your work handed back to you with a comment like “Seriously flawed!”, but then fixing it to the prof’s satisfaction turns out to be an almost trivial change. This exact scenario, and others like it, have happened to me. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2010, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-math-people-this-way/548357/92 "2010-07-29T20:34:05Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > And here’s where we part. The email in the OP was perfectly neutral. There was nothing to be offended about in there. There’s no disrespect whatsoever, unless you project your own insecurities onto it. Hell, I have _friends_ I love dearly who write emails like that from time to time. As I said above, for me, I would take it as a sign of _respect_ if my mentor felt he could communicate with me in such a direct, frank manner. I get polite emails from one of three sources - people wanting something from me, people saying no, and strangers. I send polite emails to those same sorts of people - like someone whose paper I’m rejecting. Internally, emails are short and to the point. I got my PhD before email was prevalent, but I’m sure my advisor would have sent me short emails also. ---
**Author:** ![Al\_Bundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e79b87/32.png) [@Al\_Bundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al_Bundy)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2010, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-math-people-this-way/548357/93 "2010-07-29T21:04:01Z")
Always walk a mile in the other guy’s shoes because they you are a mile away and you have a new pair of shoes. Your adviser’s instructions seem more direct and “math like” then your version. He’s saving time and getting right to the point. You are supposed to be self motivated at this level and not need any hand holding. Just my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Pasta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@Pasta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pasta)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2010, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-math-people-this-way/548357/94 "2010-07-29T21:46:08Z")
[A relevant comic](http://www.phdcomics.com/comics.php?f=1047). ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2010, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-math-people-this-way/548357/95 "2010-07-29T23:01:51Z")
> [@Pasta](#): > > [A relevant comic](http://www.phdcomics.com/comics.php?f=1047). Oh lord, I think I resemble that remark. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-math-people-this-way/548357/96 "2010-07-30T11:02:04Z")
I know a birthday gift you can give your professor: [http://www.abajournal.com/weekly/article/do\_your\_e-mail\_messages\_convey\_unintended\_hostility\_try\_a\_tone\_editor](http://www.abajournal.com/weekly/article/do_your_e-mail_messages_convey_unintended_hostility_try_a_tone_editor) ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2010, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-math-people-this-way/548357/97 "2010-07-31T20:26:17Z")
When feeling “thin-skinned” you might want to consider this excerpt from _Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go_ in which Toshiro Kageyama describes criticism about the final game in which he won the 1966 Takamatsu-no-miya Prize: > [@](#): > > **Yamabe** : > > > [@](#): > > > > How could anybody be so dumb as to hane at 22 and let Black extend to a point like 23? And whatever possessed you to ignore this and play White 24? All I can say is I’m astounded at you. > > **Kageyama** : I thought I was getting a pretty good result when I played White 26, and Hashimoto genuinely admired my moves. > > **Yamabe** : > > > [@](#): > > > > That just proves you can’t tell when he’s being sarcastic; and speaking of White 26, that narrow extension was too miserable for words. Once you let Black take a prime point like 23, the game is over; there’s no question about it. I know Kajiwara lost, but the way you play is so asinine it makes your opponents light-headed, that’s all. > > Now that I set these words down on paper and reread them, they sound almost insulting, so let me make it clear that for the sake of the art, strong and outspoken language, which makes a deep impression, is most welcome. Even though there may have been an element of insult present, the hearer definitely did not feel insulted. ---
**Author:** ![statsman1982](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e79b87/32.png) [@statsman1982](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/statsman1982)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-math-people-this-way/548357/98 "2010-08-11T16:46:16Z")
Hey, everyone. Just an update in case anyone is interested. It turns out that my worry was for nothing–my advisor didn’t even come to my presentation! He told me that he decided to go looking around the city instead! (That’s standard practice too right? Really. I’m asking that with no snark intended.) ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-math-people-this-way/548357/99 "2010-08-12T00:48:40Z")
> [@statsman1982](#): > > Hey, everyone. Just an update in case anyone is interested. It turns out that my worry was for nothing–my advisor didn’t even come to my presentation! He told me that he decided to go looking around the city instead! > > (That’s standard practice too right? Really. I’m asking that with no snark intended.) Sounds like he was confident you would do a good job and didn’t think he needed to be there. ---
**Author:** ![zut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zut/32/2875_2.png) [@zut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zut)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-math-people-this-way/548357/100 "2010-08-12T01:13:31Z")
Agreed. If your advisor doesn’t bother to show for a presentation, it means he’s sure you’ll do a credible job and don’t need him to bail you out. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-math-people-this-way/548357.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-math-people-this-way/548357.md?page=6)