# Why are men falling behind? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 28, 2011, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-men-falling-behind/601037 "2011-10-28T03:31:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-men-falling-behind/601037/41 "2011-10-28T17:40:25Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > Isn’t the ‘feminization’ of early years education - where men are very thin on the ground - a major factor? It does begin at this point, right? > > I just keep seeing young boys being told off for having the energy of young boys - like it’s a bad thing - and it worries me. And then, in mid-teen groups, I observe the ratio of boys/girls studying in libraries and its maybe 20/80% This annoys the crap out of me. Do you have any actual evidence to back this up? You see it all the time, but it never makes sense. At what point in history did becoming educated and being successful mean getting to indulge in energetic play? Because, from what I know, the answer is never. Study has always been hard, quiet work. School is a place of learning, not a place to act up. Boys and men in the past were capable of sitting still, and if they aren’t anymore, I blame the caregivers. There is nothing inherent to being a boy (especially a pre-pubescent boy, which is what people always seem to reference) that makes it impossible to sit and listen and study quietly. It’s just as hard for girls, but girls are expected to suck it up. Boys need to be taught the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-men-falling-behind/601037/42 "2011-10-28T18:15:59Z")
For what it’s worth, the gap in educational attainment [varies greatly by race and class](http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2010/01/26/gender); in fact, among whites and Asians in the upper income quartile, slightly _more_ than half of all college students are male. Whatever is going on, it’s culturally specific, and it affects low-income men disproportionately. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-men-falling-behind/601037/43 "2011-10-28T18:30:07Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > This annoys the crap out of me. Do you have any actual evidence to back this up? You see it all the time, but it never makes sense. There are physical differences in the makeup of girls’ vs. boys brains. Due to this, girls learn in a different manner than boys. The educational systems often teach in a way that girls “get” and boys "don’t. For example, the corpus callosum of the average girl is 25% larger that that of a boy. This helps the two hemispheres of the brain to communicate. When boys move around physically, their (smaller) corpus callosum has more activity. This helps them to make a better connection between brain hemispheres and enables them to learn better. So in fact there well may be is something inherent to being a boy that makes it more difficult to absorb material when they are sitting and listening and studying quietly. In the past, boys did have to suck it up and sit still. I think that they could still be successful later in life though because they had huge advantages in the work world. This is not so true now though, which is a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-men-falling-behind/601037/44 "2011-10-28T18:31:50Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > This annoys the crap out of me. Do you have any actual evidence to back this up? You see it all the time, but it never makes sense. > > At what point in history did becoming educated and being successful mean getting to indulge in energetic play? Because, from what I know, the answer is never. Study has always been hard, quiet work. School is a place of learning, not a place to act up. Boys and men in the past were capable of sitting still, and if they aren’t anymore, I blame the caregivers. There is nothing inherent to being a boy (especially a pre-pubescent boy, which is what people always seem to reference) that makes it impossible to sit and listen and study quietly. It’s just as hard for girls, but girls are expected to suck it up. Boys need to be taught the same thing. Do you have evidence that sitting still and quietly is how boys or girls learn best? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-men-falling-behind/601037/45 "2011-10-28T18:35:27Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Do you have evidence that sitting still and quietly is how boys or girls learn best? As a teacher, I think few schools actually do a ton of “sitting still and being quiet.” Our education system actually does value learning through discussion, activities, experiments, debate and other “active” learning methods. I think most teachers try to limit lecture time to a certain percent of the lesson. That said, what are the majority of us on the Dope doing right now, today? We are mostly sitting down, quietly, doing a relatively boring task in front of a computer. Learning how to do this without tearing your hair out is a value in today’s workforce. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-men-falling-behind/601037/46 "2011-10-28T19:07:05Z")
My field, software design and computer programming in general, is still highly skewed towards men. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-men-falling-behind/601037/47 "2011-10-28T19:10:48Z")
> [@Fretful\_Porpentine](#): > > For what it’s worth, the gap in educational attainment [varies greatly by race and class](http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2010/01/26/gender); in fact, among whites and Asians in the upper income quartile, slightly _more_ than half of all college students are male. Whatever is going on, it’s culturally specific, and it affects low-income men disproportionately. As I mentioned before, the distribution of males and females is not uniform. In fact, in the under-24 age group, there are about [105 males](http://nationalatlas.gov/articles/people/a_gender.html) for every 100 females. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-men-falling-behind/601037/48 "2011-10-28T19:12:19Z")
Take a look at a reasonably authorative report into the concept of young males as victims and disadvantaged. [http://www.mcgraw-hill.co.uk/openup/chapters/0335206239.pdf](http://www.mcgraw-hill.co.uk/openup/chapters/0335206239.pdf) Once you have done that, take a look at a reasonably respected media outlet portrayal of the issue. > **[African-Caribbean boys 'would rather hustle than learn'](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-15387444)** > > African-Caribbean boys are being held back by a "hustle culture" in which educational success is not seen as masculine, a teachers' leader says. Now take a look at a right wing rag that dresses up its story to suit its reactionary right wing, upper middle class olde worlde englande agenda > **[Boys are being failed by our schools](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-390319/Boys-failed-schools.html)** > > A generation of boys is leaving school unable to cope in the modern world because lessons have become 'feminised', according to a renowned academic. Differant shades all with differant objectives, the academic stuff is too difficult for a simple minded public to absorb, there is a lot of material around at differant levels, just go out and find it. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-men-falling-behind/601037/49 "2011-10-28T19:26:43Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I think it’s worth noting that a man without a college education has a lot more opportunities than a woman without a college education. The trades, in particular, present a wide array of decent solid jobs–mechanics, construction, plumbing, electrical work, HVAC, etc. These are jobs where someone can reasonably support themselves, and where frankly an undergraduate degree is a waste of both money and time. Women without college degrees are much more limited: it’s pretty much food service, retail, and low end administrative jobs. > > I mean, if you have a married couple where she went to the local state school and got a degree in business management and now works as the office manager for a small business, and he is a mechanic, and they make about the same amount of money, you wouldn’t say that he has “fallen behind” her. This is a very important point. I have a masters degree in engineering and I know for a fact that both my car salesman and plumber neighbors make significantly more than I do, and to be frank, I’m not in any way starving. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-men-falling-behind/601037/50 "2011-10-28T19:46:14Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > There are physical differences in the makeup of girls’ vs. boys brains. Due to this, girls learn in a different manner than boys. The educational systems often teach in a way that girls “get” and boys "don’t. There is no evidence that boys learn differently than girls. There a wide variety of pseudoscientific myths about “learning styles” in teaching. These pseudoscientific myths sound great on paper but are not supported by the evidence. > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > For example, the corpus callosum of the average girl is 25% larger that that of a boy. This helps the two hemispheres of the brain to communicate. When boys move around physically, their (smaller) corpus callosum has more activity. This helps them to make a better connection between brain hemispheres and enables them to learn better. Do you have a cite for this activity-induced improved learning idea? I do not doubt it exists because it sounds exactly like a pseudoscientific teaching myth. Here are the ingredients: 1. Take one factoid from neuroscience. Don’t worry that the factoid is controversial and not supported by a majority of [modern anatomical studies](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0149763496000498). 2. Let journalism take the factoid to its furthest speculative extreme: C Gorman (20 January 1992). “Sizing up the sexes”. Time: 36–43. 3. Wait for the “teaching manual” or teaching advice to ingrain the myth so that it may never disappear: [http://www.teachgirls.org/](http://www.teachgirls.org/), [http://crr.math.arizona.edu/GenderKeynote.pdf](http://crr.math.arizona.edu/GenderKeynote.pdf). > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > So in fact there well may be is something inherent to being a boy that makes it more difficult to absorb material when they are sitting and listening and studying quietly. > > In the past, boys did have to suck it up and sit still. I think that they could still be successful later in life though because they had huge advantages in the work world. This is not so true now though, which is a good thing. All human beings learn best by a combination of practicing, listening, modeling, and challenging. It would be great to identify some key set of variables that could be manipulated to give every student instruction tailored to their individual needs but unfortunately we’re more human than individuals and the stuff that has always worked will always work. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-men-falling-behind/601037/51 "2011-10-28T20:05:17Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > All human beings learn best by a combination of practicing, listening, modeling, and challenging. It would be great to identify some key set of variables that could be manipulated to give every student instruction tailored to their individual needs but unfortunately we’re more human than individuals and the stuff that has always worked will always work. Whoa there. I’m looking forward to those computerized individual multi-media & holographic learning pits the Vulcans use. Those are cool. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-men-falling-behind/601037/52 "2011-10-28T20:34:50Z")
Have you ever actually sat down and talked to a man? They’re often not very bright and shockingly violent, hence their domination of the prison system. These traits worked well in the past when they could use their physical strength to subdue women and force them to be broodmares but in the modern era it’s maladaptive. We still need men for engineering, cannon fodder, and sperm, but we’re working on it. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-men-falling-behind/601037/53 "2011-10-28T20:43:26Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > Have you ever actually sat down and talked to a man? They’re often not very bright and shockingly violent, hence their domination of the prison system. These traits worked well in the past when they could use their physical strength to subdue women and force them to be broodmares but in the modern era it’s maladaptive. We still need men for engineering, cannon fodder, and sperm, but we’re working on it. Your opinion in this matter is nonsense. Thankfully the vast majority of women are sane, unlike you. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-men-falling-behind/601037/54 "2011-10-28T20:50:52Z")
Women 20-24 still only earn 93% of their male counterparts: [http://www.catalyst.org/publication/217/womens-earnings-and-income](http://www.catalyst.org/publication/217/womens-earnings-and-income) These all seem to come down to school grades and college attendance, but those are only part of the puzzle. Boys develop slower than girls, so it’s no shock that girls do better in school. As for the college part, it ignores any nuance. A women studying film is not on equal footing with a man studying engineering. Nor is a women studying international relations better off than a man studying as an apprentice electrician. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-men-falling-behind/601037/55 "2011-10-28T21:19:39Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > But if they earn their spots on merit alone, how is that working harder? That’s working equally hard. Show me a company that hires woman for the diversity, and I’ll show you a company where the men have to work harder to earn their spots. Show me a company that discriminates against women, and I’ll show you one that doesn’t hire women for the added diversity. > > In the aggregate, you can’t have it both ways. I don’t understand what you don’t get here. There are two different situations. A woman who out competes her male peers has worked harder, or is simply the better person. In the other situation, she is preferred over male picks of equal value for matters of diversity. She has worked as hard as the males and operates on an equal level. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-men-falling-behind/601037/56 "2011-10-28T22:17:26Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > Have you ever actually sat down and talked to a man? They’re often not very bright and shockingly violent, hence their domination of the prison system. These traits worked well in the past when they could use their physical strength to subdue women and force them to be broodmares but in the modern era it’s maladaptive. We still need men for engineering, cannon fodder, and sperm, but we’re working on it. And parking. ---
**Author:** ![HoboStew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f17d59/32.png) [@HoboStew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoboStew)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-men-falling-behind/601037/57 "2011-10-28T23:30:17Z")
Men are inherently lazier than women. > [@zoid](#): > > Thankfully the vast majority of women are sane :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-men-falling-behind/601037/58 "2011-10-29T00:07:42Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Do you have a cite for this activity-induced improved learning idea? I do not doubt it exists because it sounds exactly like a pseudoscientific teaching myth. So you would like a cite from me, but before I provide it, you already know that it is a pseudoscientific myth. I think I’ll pass on playing this particular game, thanks anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-men-falling-behind/601037/59 "2011-10-29T01:26:37Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > What’s the opposite of “sausage fest?” Tuna fest? Pink taco buffet. > **[CARPE DIEM: Women Now Dominate Higher Education at Every Degree Level; The...](http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2009/06/women-dominate-higher-education-at.html)** > [@](#): > > And it’s now official: Women dominate men at every level of higher education, in terms of degrees conferred. Here’s the breakdown for graduates of the class of 2009: > > Associate’s Degrees: 167 for women for every 100 for men. > > Bachelor’s Degrees: 142 for women for every 100 for men. > > Master’s Degrees: 159 for women for every 100 for men. > > Professional Degrees: 104 for women for every 100 for men. > > Doctoral Degrees: 107 for women for every 100 for men. As to why, I have no idea. It also varies by income, age and race of the person getting educated. Asians are more gender equal, older students are more likely to be female, and students from lower income households are more likely female. [http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2005-10-19-male-college-cover\_x.htm](http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2005-10-19-male-college-cover_x.htm) [http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/12/education/12gender.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/12/education/12gender.html) Kids from households with incomes above 70k had roughly gender equal rates of enrollment (no idea how that translates into graduation though). Lower than 70k and the numbers are skewed, sometimes badly. For black males in houses with 30k or less, it is a 64-36 split. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-men-falling-behind/601037/60 "2011-10-29T01:30:36Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Women 20-24 still only earn 93% of their male counterparts: That is the male counterparts that are working. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-men-falling-behind/601037.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-men-falling-behind/601037.md?page=4)