# Why are Mexicans chopping each other up? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 14, 2012, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-mexicans-chopping-each-other-up/621935 "2012-05-14T23:13:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-mexicans-chopping-each-other-up/621935/21 "2012-05-15T05:58:55Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > OK, ending the national debt might be optimistic but it would be more than sufficient to fund treatment and education services way beyond what are currently available at no cost. The flood of easy access to these services could turn out to have a beneficial societal effect overall despite any downside of legal availability. Or the flood of easy access to stunningly dangerous substances could turn out to have a devestating societal effect overall despite any upside from inceased education. > [@Crazyhorse](#): > > And don’t forget all the costs we would eliminate by not prosecuting drug cases and filling up prisons with nonviolent drug offenders. The military and law enforcement costs in the ‘war on drugs’ at home and abroad are not trivial. These savings alone might be more than the potential tax revenue from legalization. Or the cost to the economy from an workforce impared beyond what you can imagine today could vastly outstrip and tax revenue. I’m no fan of this so call “war on drugs” but I’m really not about to get behind some bold social experimet where we just say “Fuck IT!” and throw open the pharmacy doors. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-mexicans-chopping-each-other-up/621935/22 "2012-05-15T06:05:09Z")
> [@Cubsfan](#): > > Seriously? What the fuck is wrong down there? Can’t they cut the army loose on the fucking cartels? I think there’s been about 100 beheaded bodies lying on the highway this year. > > Time to drop the hammer of justice! Could you be a little more specific on how Operation Hammer of Justice works? I’m assuming that the criminals aren’t beheading their victims in view of the authorities. So who is the army supposed to go after? Should they just round up everyone they think might be involved in the drug business? And then what? Are there going to be trials or do we just skip right to the executions? Seems kind of counter-productive to try to solve your murder problem by killing a bunch of people. ---
**Author:** ![Diamonds02](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5a626/32.png) [@Diamonds02](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diamonds02)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-mexicans-chopping-each-other-up/621935/23 "2012-05-15T06:09:57Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Have you ever tried to eat a whole Mexican? It’s more food that it looks. I want to one day. Mexican chicks are hot. I want to nail one before I die. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-mexicans-chopping-each-other-up/621935/24 "2012-05-15T06:33:45Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Could you be a little more specific on how Operation Hammer of Justice works? I think it has something to do with every problem looking like a nail. ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-mexicans-chopping-each-other-up/621935/25 "2012-05-15T06:41:00Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > Or the flood of easy access to stunningly dangerous substances could turn out to have a devestating societal effect overall despite any upside from inceased education. That was actually already the point **appleciders** has made, to which I was replying that the increased supply of education and prevention programs might also counter any resulting societal costs. So replying to that with his original point again just creates and endless loop. > [@](#): > > Or the cost to the economy from an workforce impared beyond what you can imagine today could vastly outstrip and tax revenue. > > I’m no fan of this so call “war on drugs” but I’m really not about to get behind some bold social experimet where we just say “Fuck IT!” and throw open the pharmacy doors. People who choose to participate in the workforce impaired already can do so with alcohol, prescription, or illegal drugs. Just like with alcohol or legal drugs they would likely lose their jobs and might still face criminal charges depending on their work. I understand your point of view but I never suggested we say “fuck IT” and throw the doors open. They would have to be at least as controlled as alcohol and tobacco are now, and I’m sure most employers, governments and public places would adopt strict policies about employees and the general public not using them on their premises just as they do now with alcohol and tobacco. But I disagree that regulating and taxing drugs would necessarily cause a huge increase in overall drug abuse in the first place. They are readily available to anyone who wants them in almost any town in the US now. The only difference is who makes a profit on the sale and how the money is used. Right now it is used to buy lavish villas in the mountains, sports cars and yachts and other luxuries for a handful of guys who are overseeing the brutal murder of tens of thousands of people in order to allow this illegal transaction to take place. At the same time we are spending billions to prosecute and jail a bunch of drug addicts who are already addicts even with the current laws. Making the transaction legal and offering free help with addiction and prevention programs would just cut out all the criminal middlemen (and there are plenty in the US too.) The money it saves us and the additional money it raises might, paradoxically decrease drug abuse overall if used wisely. But even if it didn’t the problem would be no worse than it is today while all crime and violence related to transporting and selling them would be eliminated. ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-mexicans-chopping-each-other-up/621935/26 "2012-05-15T06:54:20Z")
> [@](#): > > Why are Mexicans chopping each other up? According to a book review by **Vinyl Turnip** , “Nobody likes a Mexican”. I guess this applies to other Mexicans as well. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-mexicans-chopping-each-other-up/621935/27 "2012-05-15T11:18:54Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > There is desperate competition between the cartels to meet the USA’s gluttonous appetite for drugs. Anyone who approaches the problem without accepting that basic truth has no hope of understanding any possible solution. Unfortunately the cartels are very well funded and very well armed since money and weapons are what they get back from us in exchange for this drug delivery service. > > Most of the mass murders that make news are fights between competing cartels and rarely involve innocent bystanders, although sometimes they do. Besides knocking out competition they also serve to keep the public in general terrified and unwilling to stand up against them. The same terror makes it hard for citizens to find much fault in any rights violations the military or police impose on them. > > Military roadblocks on Mexican highways are commonplace and they stop and search vehicles for weapons and drugs all the time. As long as there is an endless supply of money and guns from the US there will also be an endless supply of new, heavily armed cartel members ready to deliver. > > While there aren’t routinely piles of corpses being left on US highways in this battle, at least not yet, it is important to consider that the entire supply chain could not be possible without corrupt US officials and law enforcement north of the border. And there is quite a bit of ‘drug violence’ and ‘drug-related homicide’ in the US news every day. It just isn’t depicted as being related to the cartels. > > Simple solution - USA stops buying drugs. (not bloody likely) > > Another solution - legalize drugs, tax them and (after paying down the entire national debt in a very short time) devote the majority of those taxes to treatment, medical care and educational programs for addicts. I just don’t see how this is supposed to solve things in Mexico. Drugs are legal and all the cartels just retire? They give up on having control over territory? Stop killing those viewed as enemies and start playing nice because the US has looser regulations on drugs? ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-mexicans-chopping-each-other-up/621935/28 "2012-05-15T12:20:27Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > Drugs are legal and all the cartels just retire? No, the supply chain is queried and regulated openly. Drug users can make ethical decisions when there are competitors they can purchase from. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-mexicans-chopping-each-other-up/621935/29 "2012-05-15T12:33:28Z")
Hire Danny Trejo. Give the dude a machete. He’ll straighten things out. ---
**Author:** ![kenner116](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecb155/32.png) [@kenner116](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenner116)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-mexicans-chopping-each-other-up/621935/30 "2012-05-15T12:38:02Z")
I don’t think changing US policy is going to change much of the situation in Mexico. What if Mexico just legalized drugs and the cartels? Anything would be an improvement over the current Mexican policy of militarization. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-mexicans-chopping-each-other-up/621935/31 "2012-05-15T12:50:03Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > Military roadblocks on Mexican highways are commonplace and they stop and search vehicles for weapons and drugs all the time. As long as there is an endless supply of money and guns from the US there will also be an endless supply of new, heavily armed cartel members ready to deliver. How do you reconcile these two statements? You can’t drive 20 kilometers without being stopped for a contraband search, yet the cartels still have guns? ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-mexicans-chopping-each-other-up/621935/32 "2012-05-15T12:51:44Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > I just don’t see how this is supposed to solve things in Mexico. Drugs are legal and all the cartels just retire? They give up on having control over territory? Stop killing those viewed as enemies and start playing nice because the US has looser regulations on drugs? They no longer have billions of dollars flowing into their coffers from the United States, which in turn means they have no money to pay the troops, buy automatic rifles and RPGs, and bribe cops and politicians. They then take what money they have on hand and launder it for investment in more legitimate enterprises. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-mexicans-chopping-each-other-up/621935/33 "2012-05-15T12:56:08Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > OK, ending the national debt might be optimistic but it would be more than sufficient to fund treatment and education services way beyond what are currently available at no cost. Mexican drug violence that really isn’t their problem and it is just that simple. The value of a hundred kilos of grass in a black market is much higher than a hundred kilos of grass in a legal market. A billion dollars in black market trade doesn’t automatically become a billion dollars in legal market trade. Tax revenues would still be considerable, but I doubt they’d be nearly as high as you seem to think. ---
**Author:** ![RandomLetters](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8edcca/32.png) [@RandomLetters](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandomLetters)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-mexicans-chopping-each-other-up/621935/34 "2012-05-15T13:21:44Z")
Just for reference, Federal, State, and local alcohol & tobacco taxes brought in all together about $45 billion in revenue in 2009. [Cite.](http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/listdocs.cfm?topic2id=80) That should give a good upper range figure of how much money taxes on currently illegal drugs could bring in if they were legalized and taxed. I say upper range because alcohol and tobacco are currently quite popular, and taxed fairly heavily; at least enough so that black market cigarettes and moonshine are an issue. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-mexicans-chopping-each-other-up/621935/35 "2012-05-15T13:23:03Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > The value of a hundred kilos of grass in a black market is much higher than a hundred kilos of grass in a legal market. A billion dollars in black market trade doesn’t automatically become a billion dollars in legal market trade. Tax revenues would still be considerable, but I doubt they’d be nearly as high as you seem to think. Not everything has to have a monetary profit to be worthwhile. If this means less or the end of violence I think it is worth more than whatever extra pocket change you can scoop out of it. Why do Americans have to be presented with a financial analysis of things before they approve of it? Legalize the damn thing already!\* \*And I say this as somebody that never smoked, does not drink alcohol, never tried drugs and drinks decaf. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-mexicans-chopping-each-other-up/621935/36 "2012-05-15T14:28:14Z")
> [@Cubsfan](#): > > Seriously? What the fuck is wrong down there? Can’t they cut the army loose on the fucking cartels? I think there’s been about 100 beheaded bodies lying on the highway this year. > > Time to drop the hammer of justice! They remove the visual evidence to identify the corpses. Faces and prints. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-mexicans-chopping-each-other-up/621935/37 "2012-05-15T15:54:23Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > They remove the visual evidence to identify the corpses. Faces and prints. They don’t know about DNA down there? Man, it IS a backward country. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-mexicans-chopping-each-other-up/621935/38 "2012-05-15T17:00:51Z")
Sending in the army to “drop the hammer of justice” seems to be what led to the situation being as bad as it is. [Report on a Nov 2011 paper](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503543_162-57321721-503543/report-blames-thousands-of-human-rights-atrocities-on-mexican-military/) published by Human Rights Watch about the escalation of violence over the past five years, since the military got involved. The [full report has more](http://www.hrw.org/node/102793/section/4) > [@](#): > > It has been nearly five years since President Felipe Calderón declared “war” on organized crime in Mexico. In the time since, the country has experienced a staggering rise in violence. After declining steadily for nearly two decades, the overall homicide rate grew by over 260% percent from 2007 to 2010. The government counted nearly 35,000 deaths related to organized crime from December 2006 to the end of 2010, with the number of killings increasing dramatically with each passing year, from 2,826 in 2007 to 15,273 in 2010. There have been more than 11,000 drug-related deaths reported in the Mexican press so far in 2011. > > This dramatic surge in violence has been driven in large part by the struggle between and within powerful cartels to control the drug trade and other lucrative illicit businesses such as human trafficking. These groups have committed serious crimes against one another, as well as against members of the security forces. Their illegal activities have also touched virtually every sphere of public life, from extortions of small businesses to blockades of major highways; from closures of schools to nighttime curfews; from mass kidnappings to assassinations of public officials. They have used public displays of violence—from depositing severed heads in town squares to hanging mutilated bodies from overpasses—to sow terror, not only among their rivals, but also within the general population. The impact on Mexican society has been profound. > … > More than 50,000 soldiers are currently involved in large-scale counternarcotics operations across Mexico. In the places where they are deployed, these soldiers have taken on many of the responsibilities of both police and prosecutors—from patrolling neighborhoods to responding to shootouts, from investigating individual crimes to gathering intelligence on criminal groups—even as civilian oversight of the military’s operations has been reduced. The Armed Forces have been joined in their efforts by thousands of officers from the newly reconstituted Federal Police, and more than 2,200 separate state and municipal police forces, though cooperation between these security forces is often limited or superficial. > > How have the security forces performed? Two years ago Human Rights Watch set out with this question. To answer it, we conducted in-depth research in five states significantly affected by drug-related violence: Baja California, Chihuahua, Guerrero, Nuevo León, and Tabasco. We conducted more than 200 interviews with a wide array of government officials, security forces, victims, witnesses, human rights defenders, and others. We also analyzed official statistics, gathered data through public information requests, and reviewed case files, legal proceedings, and human rights complaints, among other forms of evidence. > > What we have found is a public security policy that is badly failing on two fronts. It has not succeeded in reducing violence. Instead, it has resulted in a dramatic increase in grave human rights violations, virtually none of which appear to be adequately investigated. In sum, rather than strengthening public security in Mexico, Calderón’s “war” has exacerbated a climate of violence, lawlessness, and fear in many parts of the country. There was a report specifically on the part of the violence which was due to the military committing atrocities on civilians [issued in 2009](http://www.hrw.org/node/82539/section/3). > [@](#): > > While engaging in law enforcement activities, Mexico’s armed forces have committed serious human rights violations, including enforced disappearances, killings, torture, rapes, and arbitrary detentions. The abuses detailed in this report include an enforced disappearance, the rape of indigenous women during counterinsurgency and counternarcotics operations in Southern Mexico, the torture and arbitrary detention of environmental activists during counternarcotics operations, and several cases of torture, rape, killings, and arbitrary detentions of dozens of people during public security operations in various Mexican states in 2007 and 2008. Many victims of the abuses documented in this report had no connection to the drug trade or insurgencies. Sending in the army seems to have been a terrible idea. The problem needs a different solution. I’m not convinced legalization of the major abused drugs is it though. Although Mexico is the number one source of illegal marijuana, it’s also the number one source of meth, a huge part of the heroin trade, and pretty much holds a monopoly on the US imports for cocaine with over 90% of the coke coming in through Mexico. As of now marijuana is the biggest portion of the cartels revenue, but shutting down demand for weed wouldn’t be the silver bullet people think it would, and cocaine, heroin, and especially meth would be a much harder case to make legalization-wise. > [@PunditLisa](#): > > They don’t know about DNA down there? Man, it IS a backward country. DNA isn’t particularly useful in identifying the body of a John Doe. Firstly, the testing is time consuming and expensive. Secondly, it is worthless without a national database of DNA profiles to match it up to. The US has the [largest DNA database in the world](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_DNA_Index_System). The [FBI tracks the number of entries](http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/lab/codis/ndis-statistics) and it currently says “The National DNA Index (NDIS) contains over 10,662,200 offender1 profiles and 423,000 forensic profiles as of March 2012.” About 11 million total, or about 3.5% of the [estimated 313.5 million US citizens](http://www.census.gov/population/www/popclockus.html) are in this database. On the other hand, fingerprint data is EXTREMELY useful for identification. The [FBI’s fingerprint database](http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/fingerprints_biometrics/iafis/iafis) “is the largest biometric database in the world, housing the fingerprints and criminal histories for more than 70 million subjects in the criminal master file, along with more than 31 million civil prints.” That’s still just 32% of the US population. A body with a missing head and hands would be a huge problem to identify in the US as well as in Mexico. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-mexicans-chopping-each-other-up/621935/39 "2012-05-15T17:05:43Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > No, the supply chain is queried and regulated openly. Drug users can make ethical decisions when there are competitors they can purchase from. Pfizer and Merck aren’t going to make crystal meth, because the liability risk would be too high. And the cartels may not be content to simply let a hundred meth labs bloom around the US without taking action, if that were to mean the end of their profitability. The US suppliers could very well end up still simply being fronts for various cartels. By way of comparison, consider that garbage disposal is entirely legal, but the industry nonetheless has been dominated by organized crime in parts of the country. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-mexicans-chopping-each-other-up/621935/40 "2012-05-15T17:18:44Z")
> [@Mtgman](#): > > Firstly, the testing is time consuming and expensive. [Nitpick] PCR makes DNA testing very quick and relatively inexpensive. [/nitpick] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-mexicans-chopping-each-other-up/621935.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-mexicans-chopping-each-other-up/621935.md?page=3)