Why are militaries divided along officer/enlisted lines?

Factual Questions
61

[QUOTE=Alex_Dubinsky]
Are there really more than five such people in the world? Don’t forget, someone who is confident, will always look smart. If you find one such confindent man in 20, you’re lucky. If you find a very smart man in 20, you’re lucky too. If you want both in one person, you’ve got to search through 400.
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I won’t say they aren’t other places, but I’ve met a handful in the military, and maybe one who wasn’t in the service. Your estimate of “one in 400” leaves 15 million of them worldwide, with just over 300,000 males matching that description in America alone. I’d say that sounds just about right.

As for “confident people seem smart,” don’t forget that the USNA is one of the best engineering schools in the country and a damned fine liberal arts school if you want to major in history or international relations. In addition to turning out some excellent leaders, USNA makes their students earn a degree that is just as rigorous as any you’d get from an Ivy League school. They typically send two to four graduates each year to Oxford and Cambridge for advanced degrees (and many more to other schools) before their first sea tour. So yeah – they’re smart.

West Point and USAFA are of similar caliber, but I have always been especially impressed with the USNA grads I’ve encountered in the line of duty.

62

[QUOTE=Cosmic Relief]
I always found these tables interesting. I wonder who are the E-7’s with less than 2 years of service. I’m thinking nurses… contrary to a previous post, most nurses I knew were enlisted, except the ones who had masters’ degrees.
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RNs in the Nursing Corps are (and since at least WW1 were) commissioned officers, and the requirement is a BSN degree and approved licensing exam. LPNs are enlisted – they used to have their own MOS (91C) but they were merged with Medics (91B) to create 91W “Health Care Specialist”, within which LPN is a subspecialized skill. Thing is, civilian RNs with a BSN degrees and licenses could/did, and can/do, still enlist as 91Cs and now as 91W(PN) anyway.

Depending on the specific MOS, someone already with a degree and license can enter as an E4 and after completing the additional training requirements be bumped up to E5, but still you’d have E5 to E6 and E6 to E7 promotion to make an E7 in less than 2 years… who knows what they’re thinking when they make the tables…

63

[QUOTE=Cosmic Relief]
Here are some pay rate tables. Going by these, a newly minted O-1 straight from college makes $2555.70 per month, while an E-7 with 10 years experience makes $3263.10 per month. O-6 with 20 years makes $8466.30, E-9 with 20 years makes $4990.50. It seems like there is not a gross disparity between pay and experience beween officer and enlisted until you get to the higher ranks, where command authority clearly brings in the bucks.
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As indicated at the top of your linked page, these figures you are quoting only constitute basic pay. They do not include the various allowances and special pay (bonuses for hazardous duty, etc.). Basic pay typically makes up only about 2/3 of a servicemember’s gross pay.

[QUOTE=Cosmic Relief]
I always found these tables interesting. I wonder who are the E-7’s with less than 2 years of service. I’m thinking nurses… contrary to a previous post, most nurses I knew were enlisted, except the ones who had masters’ degrees.
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As I stated previously, my wife is a registered nurse (RN) and a former Navy Nurse Corps officer. I met dozens of registered nurses in the Navy when I was in the service. Without exception, all were officers.

According to wikipedia:

Any enlisted “nurses” you have encountered were likely either a Licensed Practical Nurse (LPN), or a corpsman/medic.

I can’t imagine why an RN would ever consider enlisting as opposed to getting a commission. Both the Navy and the Army have been begging for registered nurses for years.

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[QUOTE=robby]
According to wikipedia:
Any enlisted “nurses” you have encountered were likely either a Licensed Practical Nurse (LPN), or a corpsman/medic.

I can’t imagine why an RN would ever consider enlisting as opposed to getting a commission. Both the Navy and the Army have been begging for registered nurses for years.
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See JRDelirious above. Why do you feel you need to put ‘nurses’ in scare quotes?

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[QUOTE=Cosmic Relief]
See JRDelirious above. Why do you feel you need to put ‘nurses’ in scare quotes?
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Because the likelihood that an enlisted “nurse” is actually a nurse (i.e. a Registered Nurse [RN]) is very low. Many people assume that anyone in hospital scrubs is a nurse, while in actuality this is less and less the case, as nurses are replaced with cheaper, less-trained medical techs.

And this is a separate issue, but many RN groups have fought the proliferation of cheaper less-trained LPNs (Licensed Practical Nurses). Many do not consider them to be actual “nurses,” hence the quotes. The U.S. Navy agrees–you need an RN license to become a Nurse Corps officer; an LPN license is insufficient.

Granted, outside of the military, a “nurse” could mean either an RN or an LPN, but in the military, a “nurse” invariably means a Nurse Corps officer, meaning an RN. LPNs would be enlisted Hospital Corpsmen, and would be referred to as “corpsmen,” not “nurses.”

Unless the corpsman is an Independent Duty Corpsman (i.e. the sole health care provider on a ship or submarine), in which case everyone refers to him as “Doc.” :wink:

66

[QUOTE=robby]
Actually, there is one more group that fits in the middle: warrant officers. Warrant officers have a warrant from the Secretary of the Navy, as opposed to commissioned officers, who hold a commission from the President. There are relatively few warrant officers in the U.S. military.
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As a note, because things aren’t complicated enough, the Air Force eliminated Warrant Officers when they added the Senior Master Sergeant and Chief Master Sergeant ranks (known then as Supergrades)(Cite). Anybody who was a Warrant Officer at that point could continue to wear the rank, but no more would be added. The last Air Force Warrant Officer retired in 1992, leaving the Air Force as the only service not to have them.

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[QUOTE=Cosmic Relief]
I always found these tables interesting. I wonder who are the E-7’s with less than 2 years of service. I’m thinking nurses… contrary to a previous post, most nurses I knew were enlisted, except the ones who had masters’ degrees.
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Survivors. My impression of those seemingly extraneous additions to the pay scale was that historically in times of war people have been known to get “battlefield promotions”. Everybody else is dead, Corp, so lead 'em out, that sort of thing.

68

[QUOTE=Spectre of Pithecanthropus]
Isn’t it also true that the senior NCO usually is paid much more than a newly commissioned junior officer? Again, this is much like the white collar-blue collar divide that was common, where the hourly workers usually made much more than new college graduate executive trainees.
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Military pay is based on pay grade (rank), and time in service:

http://www.militaryconnection.com/charts.asp

Short answer is “yes”.

Edit: Gah! Too slow…

69

[QUOTE=Martin Hyde]
You shouldn’t forget Officer Candidate School, it’s one way some enlisted men move up. It also used to not be unheard of for people to get “battlefield commissions.” I’m not aware of any battlefield commission in my entire time in the U.S. Army and I don’t think it was done at all during Vietnam, either. Now, if someone wants to make a jump from enlisted to officer OCS is the typical path (going to college and joining ROTC would work, too.)

OCS of course also accepts college graduates with no military experience whatsoever.
[/QUOTE]
My great uncle went from private to major in the Marines, starting in WWII, with what I’m fairly sure was a battlefield commission. He did get to stay an officer afterwards, though. I think some did not. He retired as a major. Does anyone have info on how some were chosen to stay in the officer ranks?

I was under the impression that officer nurses were officers, but not allowed to overrule doctors on medical orders. Major Hulihan (sp?) outranked Hawkeye and B.J., but took medical orders from them all the time, with a “Yes, Doctor” response. I mean, she passed the nursing boards, and they were surgeons.

70

[QUOTE=Cardinal]
I was under the impression that officer nurses were officers, but not allowed to overrule doctors on medical orders. Major Hulihan (sp?) outranked Hawkeye and B.J., but took medical orders from them all the time, with a “Yes, Doctor” response. I mean, she passed the nursing boards, and they were surgeons.
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FWIW, this happens in the military all of the time, not just in military medicine.

A person can give orders based on their billet (i.e. their job) or watch station being stood, regardless of their rank.

For example, my submarine executive officer (XO) was a Navy lieutenant commander. He gave orders to the chief engineer (also a lieutenant commander) because his billet was senior to that of the engineer.

Another example: At sea on a submarine, if I (a lieutenant) was standing watch as Officer of the Deck (OOD) and the supply officer (a lieutenant commander) was standing watch as Diving Officer of the Watch (a subordinate watch station), I gave the supply officer orders, because his watch station was subordinate to mine.

Another example: Back aft in the submarine engine room, I go to relieve the Engineering Office of the Watch (EOOW), who is a lieutenant, junior grade. Even though I outrank him, I have to request permission from him to enter Maneuvering (the reactor/engineroom control center). He “outranks” me because he has the watch, and is currently in charge. After I relieve him and take the watch, he leaves. He returns to get something he forgot, and now he has to ask my permission to enter.

Another example: Back in port, I am pulled over on base in my car by a military policeman, who is an enlisted petty officer. Even though I outrank him, he can order me to step out of the car, take a breathalyzer, etc. I have no authority to order him to let me go, because his billet gives him the authority to give orders necessary to do his job–and he is presumed to be acting under the authority of the base commander.

So an Army Nurse major (like Major Houlihan) could give orders to Hawkeye and B.J. on administrative matters, because she outranked them, but would take medical orders from them, because she was a nurse. As I’ve indicated, this happens all the time in the military.

71

Another common example, when there is what we call in Pakistan Army a CAT “combined arms team”, a Captain commanding a company (an O-3 as NATO would say) would often have a battery led by a Major (an O-4) under his command and he can and dose give orders to him. To preserve the respect for the higher rank the orders are put forth as “suggestions” or “requests”, but they are bona fide orders and the penalty for disobeying them in war is the same. No doubt the MP mentioned in a previous post will also “request” or “ask” or “suggest” that the senior officer kindly take a breathanalyser test.
There is a difference between superior and senior. A superior is under whose command (direct or indirect) you are under, a senior is someone of a higher grade or with more time in service (if you are on the same career path), but he/she may or may not have command authority over you. A Corps Commander (a Maj Gen or a Lt Gen) has command over the troops in his corps only. He cannot order the most junior private in another corps around.

72

[QUOTE=AK84]
A Corps Commander (a Maj Gen or a Lt Gen) has command over the troops in his corps only. He cannot order the most junior private in another corps around.
[/QUOTE]

Not true in the US military - anyone who ranks you can give you orders, regardless if they’re in your chain or not. All you can do is bump it up your own chain if that order contradicts one you’ve already received - for instance, if a flag officer orders an enlisted man to join his command, the enlisted man cannot say no but can bump it up his chain until someone who trumps the flag officer can say no.

[QUOTE=Cardinal]
My great uncle went from private to major in the Marines, starting in WWII, with what I’m fairly sure was a battlefield commission. He did get to stay an officer afterwards, though. I think some did not. He retired as a major. Does anyone have info on how some were chosen to stay in the officer ranks?
[/QUOTE]

My understanding, and it’s a bit hazy to be honest, is that there was no selection process for those with battlefield commissions or other commissions during / after WW2. But many of those with battlefield commissions probably lacked the formal military education of their fellow officers, and directly after WW2 the military was dramatically reduced in number. So it wasn’t that he was selected to keep wearing major’s clusters, just that he wasn’t promoted because promotion is pretty political and was allowed to retire at 20 after the war ended. Lots of others who had battlefield commissions simply took the opportunity to leave at the end of the war, but a battlefield commission is still a commission - they can’t take it away short of a courts-martial for breaking the law.

73

You could no doubt get chewed out by a senior officer (and many do), but its very unlikely you have any obligation to obey an order unless it is his right to give it. So if he orders you to join his command, unless he has any authority to give orders regarding personel transfers I find it hard to believe that this could be true.
Because if what you say is true, a Division commander who thinks his formation has priority can order a brigade from another formation to join him.

74

[QUOTE=AK84]
You could no doubt get chewed out by a senior officer (and many do), but its very unlikely you have any obligation to obey an order unless it is his right to give it. So if he orders you to join his command, unless he has any authority to give orders regarding personel transfers I find it hard to believe that this could be true.
Because if what you say is true, a Division commander who thinks his formation has priority can order a brigade from another formation to join him.
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I am not a military lawyer, but to the best of my recollection from my service, a senior officer is a senior officer - he can order a junior officer or enlisted rank to do whatever is in his authority to do - get a haircut, clean out a latrine, charge a foxhole, join forces for an attack, etc. If he orders someone to do something which is contrary to a standing order, i.e. join a smaller unit into his, then it’s the job of a more senior commander still to stop it; the junior officer has no such right. He does have a right to defer and ask his own chain of command before carrying out the order, but he does not have the right to outright refuse simply because the senior officer is outside his chain. A divisional commander can order a brigade formation to support him in certain circumstances. It’s the job of the Corps or higher commander to veto this order or to issue standing orders which prevent it.

An example is the Normandy air-drop of Paratroopers in WW2, which due to various problems resulted in widely scattered and intermixed units from various different airborne divisions. An officer would come along, find a group of enlisted men who may or may not have been from his unit, join them together into an ad-hoc unit under his command, and then carry on his mission. Once the battle was over, personnel were put back into their rightful commands, but the overall mission took priority over individual chains of command.

The alternative, if your rule is applied rigorously, is that each chain of command is independent and therefore more like a fiefdom than a military unit, where any junior officer or enlisted can refuse legal orders from outside his chain of command. I can’t see how this is a good idea.

75

[QUOTE=GomiBoy]
I am not a military lawyer, but to the best of my recollection from my service, a senior officer is a senior officer - he can order a junior officer or enlisted rank to do whatever is in his authority to do - get a haircut, clean out a latrine, charge a foxhole, join forces for an attack, etc. If he orders someone to do something which is contrary to a standing order, i.e. join a smaller unit into his, then it’s the job of a more senior commander still to stop it; the junior officer has no such right. He does have a right to defer and ask his own chain of command before carrying out the order, but he does not have the right to outright refuse simply because the senior officer is outside his chain. A divisional commander can order a brigade formation to support him in certain circumstances. It’s the job of the Corps or higher commander to veto this order or to issue standing orders which prevent it.

An example is the Normandy air-drop of Paratroopers in WW2, which due to various problems resulted in widely scattered and intermixed units from various different airborne divisions. An officer would come along, find a group of enlisted men who may or may not have been from his unit, join them together into an ad-hoc unit under his command, and then carry on his mission. Once the battle was over, personnel were put back into their rightful commands, but the overall mission took priority over individual chains of command.

The alternative, if your rule is applied rigorously, is that each chain of command is independent and therefore more like a fiefdom than a military unit, where any junior officer or enlisted can refuse legal orders from outside his chain of command. I can’t see how this is a good idea.
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GomiBoy is correct.

Any officer can give any junior person an order, and the order must be carried out, unless the junior has standing orders counteracting this. (Even this can be contravened if the senior outranks the officer that issued the standing orders.) It is the obligation of the subordinate to inform the senior if the order contradicts any other orders previously given, but if the senior confirms the order, the subordinate is obligated to follow it.

At the earliest opportunity, the subordinate should inform his immediate superior, up his chain-of-command, of the contradicting order.

However, in practice, it is not a good idea for officers to swing their weight around unnecessarily. They should go through the proper chain of command, if possible.

Also, realize that officers who issue inappropriate orders may themselves be censured or court-martialed, so the officer had best be on firm ground when issuing orders to someone outside their normal chain-of-command.

76

Obviously military matter always have a great amount of flexibility. If the tactical situation demands it or the officer thinks it dose like Normandy, then such orders can be given indeed they should. But there is a big difference between the examples that you gave and what I was saying which is that an officer who for no real reason tries to Lord it over someone elses command, well he would very quickly find himself in a lovely new billet, like Army Protocol Unit, or the War graves commission, never to be near command again, or at least that the case here. |MacArthur could not in WWII order Patton to join him with Third Army, nor could Ike order Eight Army in the Phillipines to join him in Europe. Such an order would have been very properly disregarded, since either man had no authority in the other theater.

77

[QUOTE=Can Handle the Truth]
Also officers are not allowed to “fraternize” with the enlisted, because the military doesn’t want the officers to get chummy with men whom thy might have to send to their deaths.
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And this, I understand, is the main reason they have officers’ clubs. The officers are expected to maintain appropriate dignity before the enlisted personnel, so the OC provides them with a place where they can relax.

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[QUOTE=AK84]
Obviously military matter always have a great amount of flexibility. If the tactical situation demands it or the officer thinks it dose like Normandy, then such orders can be given indeed they should. But there is a big difference between the examples that you gave and what I was saying which is that an officer who for no real reason tries to Lord it over someone elses command, well he would very quickly find himself in a lovely new billet, like Army Protocol Unit, or the War graves commission, never to be near command again, or at least that the case here. |MacArthur could not in WWII order Patton to join him with Third Army, nor could Ike order Eight Army in the Phillipines to join him in Europe. Such an order would have been very properly disregarded, since either man had no authority in the other theater.
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Yes, you are right - if for no real reason an officer orders a more junior officer or unit to do something, then higher officers would come down on him like a ton of bricks and he would likely be relieved from command. Doesn’t mean his orders wouldn’t be followed until that time, however.

In the examples you mentioned above, however, a different rule applies. Ike was Supreme Allied Commander Europe. He had no authority to order Supreme Allied Commander Pacific (MacArthur) to change his order of forces - they are of equal rank. But if MacArthur was in Europe, and ordered Patton to do something, then his superior rank to Patton’s would mean Patton would be required to follow the order regardless, until Ike told him otherwise.

79

I think a bit of it the cultural difference between the US military and the British and commonwealth militaries. An order (except without a valid reason) to a junior in a the latter militaries would possibly be legal but would be unheard of. I would put this down to the “tribal” nature of the regimental system.

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[QUOTE=CookingWithGas]
This distinction is more formal where there are labor unions.
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Maybe in the USA, Spain was defined as “a socialized country” by an American coworker and the division between “office folk,” “blue overalls” and “white coats” is pretty general. I’ve seen it even in full-service companies, where everybody wears similar clothes.