# Why are (most) people so vengeful? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 9, 2014, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-most-people-so-vengeful/688061 "2014-05-09T16:24:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-most-people-so-vengeful/688061/21 "2014-05-09T19:51:13Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Why does that justify homicide? I don’t consider the death penalty to be homicide, so this is a non-starter for me. The problem is that it might not be justice. ---
**Author:** ![protoboard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/fbc32d/32.png) [@protoboard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/protoboard)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-most-people-so-vengeful/688061/22 "2014-05-09T20:22:11Z")
> [@Tethered\_Kite](#): > > We euthanize animals frequently. If man is nothing more than another animal I see even less reason to hold him superior to them. > > In this viewpoint Christians have a better argument by stating that men are children of God and that only He has the power of life and death over them. > > I can surmise your counter-arguments but don’t care to sidetrack here, you rascally curmudgeon. 😃 I’m an atheist but in a way I do think humans are more “sacred” than other animals. I think we have a sentience no other species even approaches. ---
**Author:** ![protoboard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/fbc32d/32.png) [@protoboard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/protoboard)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-most-people-so-vengeful/688061/23 "2014-05-09T20:24:11Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > I don’t consider the death penalty to be homicide, so this is a non-starter for me. The problem is that it might not be justice. It’s definitely homicide. The question is, is it murder? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-most-people-so-vengeful/688061/24 "2014-05-09T21:08:25Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Millions of years of evolution during which there wasn’t any such thing as a justice system, and the only way you had to make sure that someone else didn’t hurt you was to make hurting you result in direct and bloody retaliation. Exactly. It’s like asking why scorpions are so sting-y. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-most-people-so-vengeful/688061/25 "2014-05-09T21:10:53Z")
> [@protoboard](#): > > Why is it acceptable to be cruel and hateful just because someone else was cruel first? I think this is where the disconnect starts. Why is the death penalty necessarily cruel and hateful? If one person takes another person’s property and that person takes it back, is that person being selfish? If one person physically attacks a person and that person hits back, is he being aggressive and violent? Now, that’s not to say that there aren’t people who support the death penalty who do so for reasons of vengeance, just like there are people who might might be the initial aggressor, but will certain “put an end” to a fight another started. But if one reacts strongly enough to end the aggression, rather than with excessive force, I would argue that that person is not only not violent and aggressive, but he is acting in a just way. But this seems to be where the death penalty breaks down between those for and against it. What is the purpose of the justice system? If it is about justice precisely, then balance is an important aspect, that a punishment should fit the crime, not only by not being excessive (perhaps brutally murdering someone as a spectacle), but also by not being less (by not taking the life of a murderer). Obviously, to some extent we already make concessions away from pure justice, by generally aiming for more humane methods of the death penalty than were likely afforded to their victims. Ultimately though, despite that we call it the justice system, it involves a balance of a number of other virtues besides just justice, like temperance, mercy, logic, even compassion. I think the real question isn’t whether or not the death penalty is just, but rather how much we value we place on the other virtues in the balance. Certainly, as a society, we need to expect balance and fair-treatment, and justice goes a long way to do that, but we also realize that in some situations other virtues should prevail. > [@](#): > > Is punishment really about protecting society or making things right, or is it just so people can get their rocks off at the idea of people who have done bad things suffering in extreme ways? I think it’s easy to look at proponents of the death penalty in such simplistic terms, and there certainly are a lot of loud proponents who make it clear their motivation is vengeance, but I don’t think it’s fair to view all proponents in that light. To that end, I’m glad someone upthread already mentioned the prisoners dilemma and the tit for tat response because I think it illustrates that, it originated not as a means of retribution, to punish those who break the rules established by society, or as a deterrent to not break the rules, but more as a means of reinforcing to those that do, that the rules are really there. The criminals are a small part of society, but those who generally follow the rules of society need to trust the rules to keep society together. For example, let’s take a completely social rule, like lines/queues. In general, people will line up and patiently wait their turn with no problem because we all have expectations about how lines work, and as long as everyone plays along, we’re all good. If someone tries to cut and doesn’t get a social response, maybe that’s not a huge deal, but how many times can people cut in line before we reach the point where people lose confidence in the line and the system breaks down? And if the people waiting lose confidence in that idea of waiting in line, we end up with people getting trampled. This is why balance and justice is important. Or for another example, take the crash several years ago, and look at how long it took to recover. Yes, a lot of people wanted to see those responsible burn and they wanted blood. But ultimately, I think the fact that society didn’t really see anyone get punished, and saw people get away with breaking the rules, it took a long time for consumer confidence to return. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-most-people-so-vengeful/688061/26 "2014-05-09T21:22:35Z")
> [@protoboard](#): > > It’s definitely homicide. The question is, is it murder? OK, it’s justifiable homicide. By definition it’s not murder, and I don’t see a problem with that definition legally or ethically. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-most-people-so-vengeful/688061/27 "2014-05-09T21:27:46Z")
> [@protoboard](#): > > Why not? They’re both human. Adolf Hitler and Anne Frank were both participants in the Holocaust and both of them ended up dying as a result. But that doesn’t mean they’re entitled to equal amounts of sympathy. (Hey, somebody was going to Godwinize this thread.) ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-most-people-so-vengeful/688061/28 "2014-05-09T22:52:55Z")
[A timely recent artcle:](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/04/opinion/sunday/revenge-my-lovely.html?partner=rss&emc=rss) > [@](#): > > Revenge has the reputation of being a barbaric, shortsighted and pointless instinct, an aspect of our human makeup we ought to resist. Humanitarians take issue with it, and at any rate it is hard to argue that revenge is humane. If you, an animal, attack an antelope’s calf for reasons of hunger, you have to expect that the mother will fight back with her horns, bite and kick to protect her offspring. But only until such time as the calf is dead and gone. Then it would — according to antelope logic — be futile to continue. It would be wasting valuable energy fighting a lost cause, which no animal on the savanna can afford to do; after all, the antelope has other calves to take care of. You are left to eat your prey undisturbed. > > So why don’t humans think like this? Wouldn’t it save us a lot of unnecessary conflict if, like the antelope, we could put wrongdoing behind us, forget it and move on? Possibly. But it would make it far more tempting for others to have a go at the rest of your offspring. > > That is why revenge is more than a shortsighted and pointless instinct; it is an example of man’s sublime capacity for abstract thought. By avenging a misdeed we don’t regain what we have lost, but we ensure that misdeeds have consequences that we hope can be a deterrent in the abstract future: Your adversary knows that attacking your offspring has a cost, even if the attack is successful. Or especially if it is successful. > > That is an inescapable conclusion. It is a completely rational notion and a logical strategy in a society where resources are scarce and there are conflicting interests. … The article goes on to discuss the progression from blood vengence to institutionalized revenge/justice. That evolution is also covered in Deuteronomy 19 (happens to be part of my daughter’s Bat Mitzvah Torah portion) … part of the bigger section that includes the famous: “Justice, justice shall you pursue …” The established system of blood vengence, where kinships avenged the death of one of their own, was replaced with asylum cities for the accused to escape to and to be judged with a standard of proof (two witnesses). But if the person was found guilty then “hand him over to the blood-avenger to be put to death; you must show him no pity.” Now I am not a believer in the death penalty but without question an institutionalized death penalty and a sense of proportionate punishment based on proof of guilt, was a large improvement over Hatfield and McCoy type blood feuds. Revenge is hard-wired into us and many studies document that when we feel we have been wronged punishing the transgressor is highly valued even at significant additional cost to ourselves. Another [pertinent article](http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/revenge-evolution/): > [@](#): > > What evolutionary purpose does the impulse for revenge serve? > It’s got costs, but it does look like, from the best models we have, that individuals with a taste for punishing those who have harmed them could become a major part of a group. The way revenge seems to operate in our minds today really does have a functional ring to it. > > The loudest way to exact revenge is to make a person’s gains less profitable. You have reached into their accounting system and changed what they’ve gained from harming you. > > The interesting thing is that the desire for revenge goes up if there are people who have watched you be mistreated, because in that case, the costs have gotten bigger. If you don’t take revenge, there’s a chance that people will learn that you are the type of person who will put up with mistreatment. That is the kind of phenomenon that you would expect if there is a functional logic underlying the system that produces revenge. This is a well-tuned system that’s highly specific in what it cares about and the kinds of responses that it generates. Our social brains are evolved to cheat if the risk of getting caught times the cost of getting caught are less than the benefit gained by cheating. Functional society therefore requires equal brain power devoted to detecting and punishing the cheaters at levels suffiicent to deter that choice. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-most-people-so-vengeful/688061/29 "2014-05-09T23:27:15Z")
> [@sitchensis](#): > > What I can’t understand is how so many people can be so weak. They see bad people make the conscious decision to do bad things and they hand wave it away. I’m starting to think it’s a form of battered spouse syndrome where they are constantly stuck in the denial and guilt stages and never move on to enlightenment and responsibility. Who the hell is advocating “hand waving it away”? Certainly not the OP, nor the vast majority of death penalty opponents. Nobody is suggesting nothing should be done about murderers or other types of criminal, both to stop them doing it again and to deter others from doing the same sort of thing. The point is just that it does not have to be done in a spirit of vengeance, retribution, and hatred, and does not have to be any more cruel than the legitimate aims of deterrence and prevention of repeat crimes would justify. (From what I have heard, although it may be a bit counter-intuitive, the evidence suggests that capital punishment is no more effective a deterrent to murder than imprisonment.) ---
**Author:** ![StayseaDee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c4cdca/32.png) [@StayseaDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StayseaDee)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-most-people-so-vengeful/688061/30 "2014-05-10T00:21:33Z")
I am a supporter of the death penalty. If you take away someone else’s life, why should you have the opportunity to walk around free one day? The victim doesn’t have that option. Or life without parole. What good does that really do for society? Let’s feed a murderer three meals a day and give them a place to lie their head at night. That doesn’t seem fair to me. There are people in our country that don’t have food in their bellies or a bed to sleep in. I would much rather use my tax dollars to help those people than support a killer for the rest of his life. But I also believe that the death penalty should be reserved for those that admit their crimes or have been proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt, to have committed the crime they are accused of. For some people they believe in eye for an eye, but I think that people that knowingly commit a crime, such as murder, in a state that has the death penalty should be prepared to deal with the consequences. You don’t steal a dog’s bone and expect them not to bite, right? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-most-people-so-vengeful/688061/31 "2014-05-10T00:28:01Z")
For kicks, [some polling data](http://www.gallup.com/poll/159770/death-penalty-support-stable.aspx). > [@](#): > > Despite the moral nature of the death penalty as a political issue, with teachings on it differing among the various faiths, Gallup finds virtually no difference in support for it on the basis of respondents’ religious background. Two-thirds of Protestants and Catholics, alike, are in favor of the death penalty as a punishment for murder, as are at least six in 10 adults regardless of whether they attend church weekly, monthly, or less often. Only among those who say they have no religious preference, which would include atheists and agnostics, is there a difference, with a slightly smaller 56% in favor of the death penalty. > > There are, however, sharp differences in views about capital punishment by gun ownership. Those who report personally owning a gun are much more likely than those who do not have a gun to favor the death penalty: 80% vs. 55%. … ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-most-people-so-vengeful/688061/32 "2014-05-10T00:36:27Z")
I recently lost a Facebook “friend” due to supporting a state paid gender reassignment surgery for a convicted murderer. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-most-people-so-vengeful/688061/33 "2014-05-10T00:37:34Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > From Jell-O to Borscht, cold dishes have always been popular. I used to live in Moscow. Borscht is served hot. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-most-people-so-vengeful/688061/34 "2014-05-10T00:42:21Z")
I admit that sometimes when I read of a horrific crime, something flares up in me and makes me think, “Yea, let’s torture the evil SOB!!” But then I step back and realize this mentality doesn’t serve a purpose. Torturing the SOB doesn’t deter others from being SOBs. Torturing the SOB doesn’t bring the victims back. Likely the SOB is so forgone that torturing him won’t do anything anyway. So revenge may feel good in the short-term, but it doesn’t do anything but temporarily decrease people’s bloodlust. And bloodlust is why there are SOBs in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![protoboard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/fbc32d/32.png) [@protoboard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/protoboard)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-most-people-so-vengeful/688061/35 "2014-05-10T01:05:50Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > For kicks, [some polling data](http://www.gallup.com/poll/159770/death-penalty-support-stable.aspx). VERY interesting. I wonder if there is a strong correlation between believing in spanking your children and the death penalty as well. ---
**Author:** ![Tethered\_Kite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a5b964/32.png) [@Tethered\_Kite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tethered_Kite)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-most-people-so-vengeful/688061/36 "2014-05-10T18:24:17Z")
> [@protoboard](#): > > I’m an atheist but in a way I do think humans are more “sacred” than other animals. I think we have a sentience no other species even approaches. If so, then shouldn’t they be held to a higher standard? We euthanize dogs which kill even though their owners insist that they are gentle animals. Should we allow reasoning beings capable of murder access to other humans if they have proved incapable of using their powers of reason to maintain civility? * * * **Monstro** , I’ll make a guess here that less people are murdered due to bloodlust than because of addiction, neglect, disease. We do have those psychos out there but as I have said elsewhere, if we knew everything about their individual backgrounds, hardly anyone could be held accountable for their violence. ---
**Author:** ![protoboard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/fbc32d/32.png) [@protoboard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/protoboard)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-most-people-so-vengeful/688061/37 "2014-06-26T23:10:58Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I admit that sometimes when I read of a horrific crime, something flares up in me and makes me think, “Yea, let’s torture the evil SOB!!” > > But then I step back and realize this mentality doesn’t serve a purpose. Torturing the SOB doesn’t deter others from being SOBs. Torturing the SOB doesn’t bring the victims back. Likely the SOB is so forgone that torturing him won’t do anything anyway. So revenge may feel good in the short-term, but it doesn’t do anything but temporarily decrease people’s bloodlust. And bloodlust is why there are SOBs in the first place. Exactly. And actually it seems like the more violent punishments are practiced, the more the public demands them, being that support for the death penalty tends to decline after a country gets rid of it. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-most-people-so-vengeful/688061/38 "2014-06-27T00:48:20Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > I recently lost a Facebook “friend” due to supporting a state paid gender reassignment surgery for a convicted murderer. Damn. Hard to imagine being that invested… I just want to say that I think this conversation is suffering from muddiness. Distinction should be made between “vengeance” and “punishment”. They are not the same thing. > [@](#): > > Retributive justice is a theory of justice that considers punishment, if proportionate, to be the best response to crime. When an offender breaks the law, justice requires that they forfeit something in return. Retribution should be distinguished from vengeance. Unlike revenge, retribution is directed only at wrongs, has inherent limits, is not personal, involves no pleasure at the suffering of others, and employs procedural standards. ---
**Author:** ![Obnoxious\_Hood\_Ornament](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3be4f8/32.png) [@Obnoxious\_Hood\_Ornament](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Obnoxious_Hood_Ornament)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-most-people-so-vengeful/688061/39 "2014-06-27T14:47:50Z")
I’ve never been inclined to equate the death penalty with vengeance. I’ve always thought of it as a method of culling the herd. Complex systems usually need ways to repair or jettison defective elements. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-most-people-so-vengeful/688061/40 "2014-06-27T17:00:31Z")
> [@protoboard](#): > > Like whenever I read a news story about a heinous crime, people are always saying “hang them”, or describing these elaborate torture fantasies - and honestly I’m left thinking “so who’s _really_ the bad guy here?” Most people have some sense of justice, fair play, or whatever you want to call it. When someone transgresses we want to see them punished even if we’re not the ones they transgressed against. On the flip side we also like stories where someone does something right and is rewarded for it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-most-people-so-vengeful/688061.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-most-people-so-vengeful/688061.md?page=3)