[QUOTE=Don’t Call Me Shirley]
I remember that. I also seem to remember, although I can’t find anything on line to back my memory up, that one of the license branches they closed in Gary was issuing 65,000 IDs per year, despite them all “being too poor to drive.” Does that sound right to you?
[/QUOTE]
you mean a large industrial city had people getting licenses on their lunch breaks when they actually had time off? Amazifying!
[QUOTE=Uncommon Sense]
Exactly.
Should I get re-imbursed for my gas money if I have to drive to the poll to vote?
[/quote]
absentee ballot
Unless you have a 12 hour work day, that’s a non-started since polls are open 6am-7pm
Perhaps you missed the part about it being every citizen’s right to vote? Voting is not synonymous with the ability to drive. And why would you ever get a license if you lived in a city with extensive public transportation? Besides, if you bothered to read my posts, you’d see that since they started requiring birth certs to get drivers licenses, you’d realize that its a pretty big issue to even get a drivers license in the first place. Millions of people simply don’t have their birth certificates.
[QUOTE=spazattak]
Perhaps you missed the part about it being every citizen’s right to vote? Voting is not synonymous with the ability to drive. And why would you ever get a license if you lived in a city with extensive public transportation? Besides, if you bothered to read my posts, you’d see that since they started requiring birth certs to get drivers licenses, you’d realize that its a pretty big issue to even get a drivers license in the first place. Millions of people simply don’t have their birth certificates.
[/QUOTE]
When did anyone say it had to be a drivers license? A state photo ID should be simple enough. Whatever the citeria for that state to issue an ID would be all that’s needed. You have FOUR years to figure it out, if you’re serious about voting, that is.
How are all these people that can’t verify their existense getting jobs, assistance, bank accounts, etc??? Do you really expect us to let anyone vote especially if they can’t prove they’re a citizen of this country? There must be some security, some form of verification, No?
You mention that it’s everyone’s right to vote…doesn’t there need to be some responsibility on the shoulders of the voters to make sure that it’s an honest and accurate vote? That responsibility is making sure that all votes are legitimate and that means getting pre-registered with an ID.
[QUOTE=Uncommon Sense]
You have FOUR years to figure it out, if you’re serious about voting, that is.
[/QUOTE]
I don’t understand why you find this assertion relevant ( even ignoring the fact that elections occur more frequently than once every four years ). Why should it be important when a person makes the decision to vote? If they are a citizen and want to vote then I believe that should be enough. Why should anyone’s opinion of whether this makes a person’s desire to vote serious or not even enter into it?
Just my 2sense
And we’re still ignoring the fact that many many people cannot even obtain this ID to begin with because of the absence of birth certificates.
[QUOTE=Uncommon Sense]
How are all these people that can’t verify their existense getting jobs, assistance, bank accounts, etc??? Do you really expect us to let anyone vote especially if they can’t prove they’re a citizen of this country? There must be some security, some form of verification, No?
[/QUOTE]
With their old state IDs, soc sec cards etc. The problem comes when someone goes to renew their license. They recently changed the requirements for obtaining one to include the birth certificate.
After going through this thread, it seems as though the principle objections to the voter ID card are 1) the cost to purchase one, and 2) the difficulty in getting one for people who do not have a birth certificate. Couldn’t we solve these problems by 1) waiving the fee for people who can’t afford them, and 2) grandfathering in people who do not have birth certificates? I think that, as a taxpayer, a voter ID card is not something I would mind making sure that people could get for free if they had to. And as far as the birth certificates, aren’t most people with this problem elderly? I doubt there are very many children born in the US any longer who don’t get them, and in the future this will be less & less of a problem.
[QUOTE=gonzomax]
Some states dont require proof of citizenship to obtain drivers licenses. Therefore it would require a passport to obtain the document. Passports are more than 100 bucks. To get one you require a burth cirtificate. Can you find yours. It would clearly be difficult for the poorer people. It would be expensive and a difficult process for many.
[/QUOTE]
I haven’t completely formed an opinion on this yet, but this part of the argument I can’t get my head around. The very conditions you describe as making it cumbersome for some to get a voter ID seem to also be conditions that make it impossible for them to demonstrate who they are, even in the absence of the need for an official voter ID. Someone without a passport, without a birth certificate, without a driver’s license–well, how do they prove who they are under any circumstances? And isn’t it reasonable under some circumstances to expect the person exercising the right to be able to prove that they are actually the person to whom that right belongs? If there is some other reasonably reliable, but less onerous, method of proving one’s identity, fine, let’s use that method.
Voter IDs, if they should be required, should be free of charge. The taxpayers will still, of course, bear the burden, but this will be indirect and will mean that those who pay more (or any) taxes will bear more of the burden. That’s just the way it has to be, IMO, if we are not to unduly restrict someone’s right to vote. Beyond the dollar cost, it would also have to be reasonably straightforward to get one. But it needn’t be absolutely effortless.
[QUOTE=spazattak]
And we’re still ignoring the fact that many many people cannot even obtain this ID to begin with because of the absence of birth certificates.
[/QUOTE]
Cite?
For most people, a call and/or a letter to their state of births’ department of records will get one. States that have lost or destroyed the records have substitute documentation. Immigration records exist for those born in other countries.
This is not 1850. The notion that “many many” American citizens are living without a paper trail is absurd.
[QUOTE=spazattak]
Here in Missouri, where they passed (and subsequently struck down) a voter-ID bill they’re requiring you to present a valid birth certificate or passport in order to get a valid ID. Many people, including the elderly and people who have been adopted don’t have access to an original birth certificate and never traveled outside of the country so they don’t have a passport. If they’re going to do this, there needs to be a transition period of trust between the government and the citizens getting the ID. If they already have an ID, you shouldn’t need to provide proof of citizenship - because it can be impossible for some people.
[/quote]
I agree.
You mean like a birth certificate?
I agree also.
I agree again.
Looks like we agree. What’s the arguement then?
I wouldn’t get tripped up over the absence of some birth certificates. If we expand the parameters to make it easy on everyone then we’ve done nothing to prevent the problems this is designed to prevent.
[QUOTE=Uncommon Sense]
How are all these people that can’t verify their existense getting jobs, assistance, bank accounts, etc??? Do you really expect us to let anyone vote especially if they can’t prove they’re a citizen of this country? There must be some security, some form of verification, No?
[/QUOTE]
Verifying one’s “existence” isn’t the criterion on which getting a job, assistance or bank accounts is based. And even if you want to talk about “citizenship” wrt those issues, one does not have to be a citizen in order to open a bank account (or get a bank loan to buy a house, even), get a job (one only needs to be eligible to work in this country, which does not carry with it the right to vote if one is a resident alien with a green card but not full citizenship), or, believe it or not, qualify for public assistance (even resident aliens may qualify to get public aid).
In California the only “proof” one needs that they are a citizen eligible to vote, is their signature. [
[QUOTE=furt]
Cite?
For most people, a call and/or a letter to their state of births’ department of records will get one. States that have lost or destroyed the records have substitute documentation. Immigration records exist for those born in other countries.
This is not 1850. The notion that “many many” American citizens are living without a paper trail is absurd.
[/QUOTE]
I doubt that in today’s day and age of fraud, that getting a birth ciertificate is ‘easy’.
It may require some effort, but if that person wants to be treated like the rest of the population then they should make the effort to do so.
[QUOTE=Uncommon Sense]
You mean like a birth certificate?
[/quote]
except you can’t use a birth cert as ID to vote with 
But that’s just the problem. No one has demonstrated that there is a problem that this is supposed to be preventing. No studies on voter fraud have been presented, nothing - just the whole illegals voting and terrorism scare tactics that the pubs fall back on for every issue.
[QUOTE=Uncommon Sense]
I doubt that in today’s day and age of fraud, that getting a birth ciertificate is ‘easy’.
It may require some effort, but if that person wants to be treated like the rest of the population then they should make the effort to do so.
[/QUOTE]
I know this is anecdotal, but I have a coworker who was adopted and the birth cert was destroyed long ago and they are having a helluva time renewing the license.
[QUOTE=furt]
Cite?
For most people, a call and/or a letter to their state of births’ department of records will get one. States that have lost or destroyed the records have substitute documentation. Immigration records exist for those born in other countries.
This is not 1850. The notion that “many many” American citizens are living without a paper trail is absurd.
[/QUOTE]
As I said before my grandmother never had a birth certificate as her parnets never applied for one. She was born on their kitchen table so no hospital records either. She never had a photo ID in her life. Now fortunatly she was registered to vote in the same county from her 21st birthday to after her death. It’s entirely possible for older people to have no legal proof that they were born.
Cook County, I presume?
[QUOTE=spazattak]
except you can’t use a birth cert as ID to vote with
But that’s just the problem. No one has demonstrated that there is a problem that this is supposed to be preventing. No studies on voter fraud have been presented, nothing - just the whole illegals voting and terrorism scare tactics that the pubs fall back on for every issue.
[/QUOTE]
Lou Dobbs tonight told me that the evil Mexicans are going to vote by the millions. If Lou Dobbs says it, it must be true. Nobody has better foreigner-hating credentials than the Dobbster.
[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
Um, thanks. It can get confrontational in a debate. If someone criticizes a point I’m trying to make I’d like them to actually see the point first, that’s all.
Peace.
[/QUOTE]
Ah, yes. Unnecessary rudeness is definitely a key point in debate. I’d forgotten.
I’m curious about your position regarding people who don’t have other ID. I mean, what if I don’t drive? I essentially have to pay $25 to vote, since I’d need to get a government-issued ID. Should ID be issued for free, lest we discourage voters?
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat]
No, we’re afraid illegal immigrants will.
[/QUOTE]
Do you have any documentation for noncitizens voting in significant numbers, anywhere in the U.S.?
[QUOTE=Speaker for the Dead]
Ah, yes. Unnecessary rudeness is definitely a key point in debate. I’d forgotten.
[/QUOTE]
I see. You respond to the point I attempted to make with an snarky little analogy that implied my point was silly. When I vigorously and unapologetic ally defend my point and shoot down your incorrect analogy I am being rude. I think I’ll give that all the consideration it deserves.
IMO and without much statistical data I think we should make it as easy as possible for people of all races and economic stations to vote. If that means free IDs for those in low income levels then so be it. It’s about more than just a dollar amount. It’s about not making people jump through geographic or paperwork hoops in order to exercise their right to vote.
In fairness I don’t place all the responsibility on the government. People need to make a vigorous effort on their own behalf and as concerned citizens we can help each other. What we don’t need is laws designed to make it harder for certain groups disguised as something else. Does that seem reasonable?