# Why are people not up in arms over Guantanamo Bay? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 29, 2011, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-not-up-in-arms-over-guantanamo-bay/580151 "2011-04-29T13:08:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-not-up-in-arms-over-guantanamo-bay/580151/21 "2011-04-29T16:26:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, I think you’re right… except that “purely political pressures” are what motivated Bush, too, in the sense that it would be bad politics to release a detainee who then committed a further act of terrorism. In this case, “politics” and “wise policy” happen to dovetail in their objectives. Then I guess I’m asking why you think it’s wise policy. The impression I’ve had is that the decision as to who should go to Guantanamo is quite arbitrary, and fails to track threat level. As well, the impression I have is that the legal procedures at Guantanamo do not do much to protect innocent people from detention and from successful prosecution. I’d say that if I’m right about this, then it’s quintessentially unwise policy to keep the system in place. But what do you know that should change my impression? Or how do you reason that even if the impressions are right, the policy is still wise? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-not-up-in-arms-over-guantanamo-bay/580151/22 "2011-04-29T16:31:21Z")
> [@scamartistry](#): > > Your comparison with the Japanese interncamps is ridiculous and offensive, > Do you think that most of the people are locked up ONLY because they are muslim? I would imagine that after September 11 the guy on the street illogically hates or fears Muslims just as the average guy illogically hated or feared Japanese after December 7. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-not-up-in-arms-over-guantanamo-bay/580151/23 "2011-04-29T16:32:33Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > I don’t get that bent out of shape over it because unlike many others, I do believe that almost all of the detainees held there are in fact “the bad guys”. _Not even the US government_ believes almost all the detainees held there are “the bad guys”. They know that 150 of them are just random people that got rounded up or _sold_ to the US, but they don’t seem to give a fuck. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-not-up-in-arms-over-guantanamo-bay/580151/24 "2011-04-29T16:32:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Why? Again, my own preconceptions undoubtedly drive this conclusion, but I believe that it’s because it’s Obama, rather than Bush, at the helm. Perhaps my preconceptions drive this conclusion, but it’s because Obama did actually try to close it, while Bush _opened_ it. ---
**Author:** ![Yodalicious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yodalicious/32/8195_2.png) [@Yodalicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yodalicious)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-not-up-in-arms-over-guantanamo-bay/580151/25 "2011-04-29T16:33:12Z")
> [@scamartistry](#): > > So your point is that all detainees are innocent? I doubt that this is the case. Yes everyone deserve a fair trial. of course. I do think though that most people at gitmo deserve to be locked up. > > Your comparison with the Japanese interncamps is ridiculous and offensive, > Do you think that most of the people are locked up ONLY because they are muslim? > > What do you base this on? No, no, you’re misreading. I was answering the question in the title “Why are people not up in arms over Guantanamo Bay?” by trying to put myself in the mind of the average American. Maybe I didn’t do that so well? No, I don’t think my comparison is ridiculous or offensive. I’ve never read or heard about protests against the forced relocation of US citizens. Maybe there were, I don’t know. Japanese-Americans lost everything, why? German-Americans and Italian-Americans weren’t forced from their homes on the east coast, why? The US is still extremely Euro-centric. We don’t like to worry about the bad things that happen to dark people who speak odd sounding languages and have unfamiliar cultures. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-not-up-in-arms-over-guantanamo-bay/580151/26 "2011-04-29T16:49:24Z")
Remember that Bush I and Clinton used Guantanamo Bay as an [internment](http://heinonline.org/HOL/Page?handle=hein.journals/urich29&div=16&g_sent=1&collection=journals) camp also. Haitian and some Cuban [refugees](http://heinonline.org/HOL/Page?handle=hein.journals/geoimlj9&div=31&g_sent=1&collection=journals) picked up by the Coast Guard were imprisoned there expressly for the purpose of keeping them somewhere beyond the reach of American law (specifically, to prevent the detainees from petitioning for asylum or habeas corpus). Back then, some lower courts were sympathetic to allowing the detainees to have access to counsel and to hearings, but the appellate court [accepted](http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-11th-circuit/1115770.html) the Government’s arguments that Guantanamo was beyond the reach of the US Constitution for those purposes. The issue never reached the Supreme Court. Nobody cared. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-not-up-in-arms-over-guantanamo-bay/580151/27 "2011-04-29T16:55:37Z")
Apparently he does not have the power to close it if congress wants to keep it open. Many of those prisoners were guilty of wearing the wrong watch. Many turned in by neighbors for the reward. We have slowly released many of them because it was wrong to keep them in jail without any proof. It is political calculation trumping morality. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-not-up-in-arms-over-guantanamo-bay/580151/28 "2011-04-29T17:09:25Z")
**Why are people not up in arms over Guantanamo Bay?** They were. But Bush isn’t President anymore. That’s the beginning and end of it right there. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-not-up-in-arms-over-guantanamo-bay/580151/29 "2011-04-29T17:18:48Z")
Dude, that is sooo 2004. But it doesn’t matter since we have plenty of bases around the world. And agreements with other countries to do our really dirty work. So focusing on Guantanamo, in particular, is sorta missing the point. As for the moral arguments re: state actions, well, to [quote a recent IOZ post] ([http://whoisioz.blogspot.com/2011/04/project-monarch.html](http://whoisioz.blogspot.com/2011/04/project-monarch.html)): > [@](#): > > [America] is not immoral but amoral; or, to use the religious image, it is a hell defined not by a lot of hot-wax S&M party-and-play but by being totally cut off from the light of god. To apply standards of consistency and hypocrisy to such a creature is absurdity at its uttermost. When someone starts coughing up statements like Torture Isn’t an American Value or America Stands for Freedom or We Should Be Better than This, I feel my stomach start to burble. All of these things that America shouldn’t or oughtn’t or wasn’t or cannot or does not or will not or whatnot: yo, that is what America _is_. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-not-up-in-arms-over-guantanamo-bay/580151/30 "2011-04-29T17:28:15Z")
I think the problem here, from Obama’s perspective, is that a “not guilty” verdict in any sort of trial is politically unacceptable, and the evidence necessary to convict in the federal courts simply does not exist. That leaves the military tribunals, where the deck will likely be stacked heavily in favor of conviction. I hope that his conscience as a lawyer won’t let him condone that kind of farce. Which leaves punting as his only viable option. Leave the mess for the next POTUS to deal with…or maybe, if he wins a second term, he could deal with it then without the concern that it could and probably would torpedo his re-election campaign. In my opinion, GITMO is shameful. People held for years without being charged with any crime, without meaningful contact with counsel, isolated…exactly the things we are not supposed to do. We’re supposed to be better than that. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-not-up-in-arms-over-guantanamo-bay/580151/31 "2011-04-29T17:49:11Z")
> [@Daddypants](#): > > German-Americans and Italian-Americans weren’t forced from their homes on the east coast, why? I’d invite you to research this subject a little more. I think you will find that while not in anywhere near the numbers as Japanese and Japanese-Americans, there were many interred that were of European ancestry. You might be surprised how widespread the program was, or just more saddened. ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-not-up-in-arms-over-guantanamo-bay/580151/32 "2011-04-29T18:05:24Z")
Why aren’t people up in arms that 18 people on Illinois Death Row were INNOCENT but scheduled to die. AND this is the scary part, were given jury trials and found GUILTY by due process. Still death penalty support in Illinois is high, even though the state recently abolished it. The long and short is people don’t care. It has nothing to do with the color of their skin, they don’t care. I found it interesting that Mr Obama said, we’d be out of Iraq, he’d close Gtmo and all those other things, just to get elected. Yet there were protesters every weekend on Milwaukee Ave in Chicago while Bush was president. The weekend after Mr Obama won, they stopped. OK why? Why did they never come back. Because those people DIDN’T CARE EITHER. They were using anything as a reason to get at Mr Bush. Mr Obama could do something he is choosing not to. Why? 'Cause he’s afraid of not getting re-elected. I guess it’s nice to have principles so long as they don’t interfere with your job. Perhaps if that’s the case one shouldn’t portray yourself as such. But in the long term, open your eyes, there’s injustice everywhere you go. I can’t go three blocks in Chicago without seeing a few. You have to know where and when to pick your battles and standing up for a bunch of people, who are probably guilty (note: probably) isn’t high up on the list. The same way we don’t care about a few innocent people who are in jail now, and may be innocent of that crime, but I bet he did something else he never got caught for, so in the end it’s even 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-not-up-in-arms-over-guantanamo-bay/580151/33 "2011-04-29T18:06:20Z")
I’m not going to take up arms against my country over Guantanamo Bay. But it is one of the things that Obama said he would correct that he has made very little effort to correct. It is one of the reasons I won’t be supporting and voting for Obama as I did in 08. Enemies of our country who are being held prisoner need to be held on our soil and subject to our laws and customs for treatment of prisoners. Kinda defeats the whole purpose of a country of laws and principles to make such a large point of ignoring those laws and principles. But what do you expect from a country of fucking lawyers? ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-not-up-in-arms-over-guantanamo-bay/580151/34 "2011-04-29T18:07:31Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Ah, they classic “everyone else is evil too” defense. Exactly how that qualifies as a _defense_ is a bit puzzling. No, what I’m saying is the US isn’t some special super evil nation, as you appear to believe. Your delusions on the score make it hard for you to make any valid point on anything political, ever. > [@](#): > > The horse isn’t dead, we are still victimizing these people right now. I meant your unending and irrational hatred of the US. Yes, there are still folks held at Gitmo. It sucks. Most that were held there have been processed and released though. Hopefully we can figure out what to do with those left. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-not-up-in-arms-over-guantanamo-bay/580151/35 "2011-04-29T18:09:35Z")
Americans aren’t very good at this whole “up in arms” thing. We tend to get distracted easily by bread and circuses (or fast-food and Charlie Sheen). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-not-up-in-arms-over-guantanamo-bay/580151/36 "2011-04-29T18:19:13Z")
> [@mac9891](#): > > Am I the only one who believes this to be an unforgivable violation of human rights, and at the very least a huge embarrassment to a nation that prides itself on freedom and rights of people? I don’t care about the embarrassment bit, but you’re dead right about the unforgivable part. > [@](#): > > Thoughts? I think **Der Trihs** paints with a bit of a broad brush, but his general description of Americans certainly applies to some people. I’ve had discussions with people who favour having people tortured because not doing so leads to people laughing at the US, which hurt this person’s feelings. Boo hoo to the scumbags is what I think. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-not-up-in-arms-over-guantanamo-bay/580151/37 "2011-04-29T18:26:34Z")
> [@Tristan](#): > > No, what I’m saying is the US isn’t some special super evil nation, as you appear to believe. More missing the point. It _doesn’t matter_ if America is especially evil or not. America will remain as evil as it is regardless of whether or not the rest of the world is a hell or a paradise. > [@Tristan](#): > > I meant your unending and irrational hatred of the US. And why is it irrational? Conquest, economic exploitation, hypocrisy, false imprisonment, torture and all the rest; whether you like it or not there’s plenty of rational reasons to hate the US. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-not-up-in-arms-over-guantanamo-bay/580151/38 "2011-04-29T18:37:47Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Perhaps my preconceptions drive this conclusion, but it’s because Obama did actually try to close it, while Bush _opened_ it. Yes. It’s the difference between disappointment in Obama for caving in to the right-wing pearl-clutching pseudocowards, and disgust with the scum Bush for having people kidnaped and put in legal limbo so they could be tortured, then lying about it. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-not-up-in-arms-over-guantanamo-bay/580151/39 "2011-04-29T18:47:47Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] People aren’t holding Barack Obama’s feet to the fire. [/QUOTE] Well…wouldn’t that be torture?? :eek: > [@](#): > > Why are people not up in arms over Guantanamo Bay? I suppose it could be because we are all just evil bastards who revel in inflicting misery and despair on everyone else, as Der Trihs says. Or, maybe the fact that two different administrations from two different parties are treating it pretty much the same says something about the realities of the situation. Basically, my take on it is that if, after saying he would do something about Gitmo, Obama basically punts on the thing, that indicates to me that simplistic answers and fervent slogans might be falling short of the realities of the actual situation there. I think that if it was something that could easily be done, the way some people seem to think, that Obama would have just done it. That he hasn’t is, again to me, telling. YMMV, and maybe Obama has just sold out to the Republicans and Big Business (or whoever it is who has an interest in profiting or whatever from this situation). I’m sure Der Trihs will be back in a few to regale us with how Obama is really just another right winger, and that the Dems are just like the Pubs, for all practical purposes, etc etc. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-not-up-in-arms-over-guantanamo-bay/580151/40 "2011-04-29T18:48:02Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Then I guess I’m asking why you think it’s wise policy. > > The impression I’ve had is that the decision as to who should go to Guantanamo is quite arbitrary, and fails to track threat level. As well, the impression I have is that the legal procedures at Guantanamo do not do much to protect innocent people from detention and from successful prosecution. I’d say that if I’m right about this, then it’s quintessentially unwise policy to keep the system in place. But what do you know that should change my impression? Or how do you reason that even if the impressions are right, the policy is still wise? I don’t share your impressions. My understanding is that every detainee has had a military commission, which establishes at least a minimum level of confidence that we have evidence against each detainee. Much of that evidence would not survive in the context of a criminal trial inside the US. But I don’t agree that the law compels us to provide that high bar of protection to persons captured on the battlefield, not covered by the Geneva POW accords. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-not-up-in-arms-over-guantanamo-bay/580151.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-not-up-in-arms-over-guantanamo-bay/580151.md?page=3)