# Why are people of African descent such bad swimmers? (Not as racist as you might think) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 9, 2010, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-of-african-descent-such-bad-swimmers-not-as-racist-as-you-might-think/553218 "2010-09-09T20:00:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-of-african-descent-such-bad-swimmers-not-as-racist-as-you-might-think/553218/1 "2010-09-09T20:00:04Z")
First off, let me make it clear that blacks are just as smart as white’s, asians, native Americans, etc. But mt B.S. degree was in molecular bio, so I am always wondering about humans. Genetically, race is almost meaningless. Almost, but not quite. There ARE differences, and I want to examine them a bit - specifically in regards to athletics. The easy thing would be to chalk some differences up to “culture”\*, but that’s too lazy for my scientific self. Hence swimming. If you look at American sports, there are more pro athletes that are African American than there are European American. I believe this is mostly due to the fact that people from West Africa (and really most of Africa) statistically have larger bones and more “fast twitch” muscle fibers. Both of those are heavy. This makes me think that the bones and the muscles are a liability in swimming - which is why you see black guys breaking records in the 100 meter dash and white guys breaking records in swimming. Thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-of-african-descent-such-bad-swimmers-not-as-racist-as-you-might-think/553218/2 "2010-09-09T20:03:40Z")
Lack of facilities to… um… facilitate swimming as a sport. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-of-african-descent-such-bad-swimmers-not-as-racist-as-you-might-think/553218/3 "2010-09-09T20:03:51Z")
Black people tend to be poorer and are less likely to have access to a pool to practice in? You’ll never become a great swimmer if you never have the opportunity to swim. ---
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-of-african-descent-such-bad-swimmers-not-as-racist-as-you-might-think/553218/4 "2010-09-09T20:05:09Z")
Many pounds ago, I was the fastest kid in my junior high. I also suck at swimming. If you’re trying to give me a reason to blame my ancestry…well, I’m listening. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-of-african-descent-such-bad-swimmers-not-as-racist-as-you-might-think/553218/5 "2010-09-09T20:05:51Z")
> [@Asimovian](#): > > Many pounds ago, I was the fastest kid in my junior high. I also suck at swimming. If you’re trying to give me a reason to blame my ancestry…well, I’m listening. He’s saying you’re dense. And who am I to argue with science? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-of-african-descent-such-bad-swimmers-not-as-racist-as-you-might-think/553218/6 "2010-09-09T20:07:14Z")
Black people swim like this: _bop bop da da bop bop_. White people swim like this: _doop doop derp doop doop_. [/bad\_80s\_commedian] ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-of-african-descent-such-bad-swimmers-not-as-racist-as-you-might-think/553218/7 "2010-09-09T20:09:49Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Black people swim like this: _bop bop da da bop bop_. > White people swim like this: _doop doop derp doop doop_. [/bad\_80s\_commedian] It’s funny, because it’s true… ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-of-african-descent-such-bad-swimmers-not-as-racist-as-you-might-think/553218/8 "2010-09-09T20:15:15Z")
There may be a cultural element to this. Throughout West Africa and areas influenced by west African culture, you can find variations of [Mami Wata](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mami_Wata). In Cameroon, it was widely believed that Mami Wata inhabited most bodies of water and posed a great hazard for swimmers (and indeed, any drownings would be automatically attributed to Mami Wata.) I remember going to a professional conference in a beach town and all the Americans were swimming happily in the waves while the Cameroonians waded tentatively in the shallows. Generally Cameroonians didn’t swim a lot unless they were from a beach town or an exceptionally hot area. I wouldn’t be surprised if habits stemming from these beliefs have been persisted for generations. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-of-african-descent-such-bad-swimmers-not-as-racist-as-you-might-think/553218/9 "2010-09-09T20:16:40Z")
On edit: This post is directed for all before **even sven** Can’t we have a discussion about the variations in humans without the peanut gallery? The first sentence in my OP should tell you what I am talking about. i.e. human variation. Your average Samoan is taller than your average Vietnamese. I am talking about body type in relation to ancestry. Please try to be scientific. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-of-african-descent-such-bad-swimmers-not-as-racist-as-you-might-think/553218/10 "2010-09-09T20:18:36Z")
Explained here.It’s all down to where your belly button is. [http://news.discovery.com/human/belly-buttons-sports-athletes.html](http://news.discovery.com/human/belly-buttons-sports-athletes.html) ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-of-african-descent-such-bad-swimmers-not-as-racist-as-you-might-think/553218/11 "2010-09-09T20:26:39Z")
> [@](#): > > The minority swimming gap has deep roots in America’s racial history. For decades during the 20th century, many pools were segregated, and relatively few were built to serve black communities. > > John Cruzat, USA Swimming’s diversity specialist, said these inequalities were compounded by a widespread misperception — fueled by flawed academic studies — that blacks’ swimming ability was compromised by an innate deficit of buoyancy. > > … > > Cruzat was pleased by one finding in the new study — that most black and Hispanic children do not disdain swimming as a “white sport.” The study also found that swimming ability, regardless of race, increased in relation to parents’ income and education. From [here](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24411271/). > [@](#): > > Many black parents are not teaching their children to swim. > > Some might assume the fundamental reasons would be lack of money for swimming lessons or living in areas where there were no pools, but the reality is more complex. > > “Fear of drowning or fear of injury was really the major variable,” says Prof Carol Irwin, a sociologist from the University of Memphis, who led the study for USA Swimming. > > Typically, those children who could not swim also had parents who could not swim. > > “Parents who don’t know how to swim are very likely to pass on not knowing how to swim to their children,” says Ms Anderson. From [here](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11172054). The end cause seems to be that many populations of black Americans didn’t have exposure to swimming, and then that lack of exposure led to fear which led them to keep their children from swimming even when the kids would have had a greater access to facilities. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-of-african-descent-such-bad-swimmers-not-as-racist-as-you-might-think/553218/12 "2010-09-09T20:27:59Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > On edit: This post is directed for all before **even sven** > > Can’t we have a discussion about the variations in humans without the peanut gallery? The first sentence in my OP should tell you what I am talking about. i.e. human variation. Your average Samoan is taller than your average Vietnamese. I am talking about body type in relation to ancestry. Please try to be scientific. So, what you’re saying is that you will only accept an answer that says it’s racial and physical even when the evidence points to it being cultural and a matter of exposure and money? ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-of-african-descent-such-bad-swimmers-not-as-racist-as-you-might-think/553218/13 "2010-09-09T20:36:26Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > Explained here.It’s all down to where your belly button is. > > [http://news.discovery.com/human/belly-buttons-sports-athletes.html](http://news.discovery.com/human/belly-buttons-sports-athletes.html) That’s pretty interesting in regards to center of gravity. Couple that with [this University graph of bone density](http://depts.washington.edu/bonebio/bonAbout/race.html%5B/url) with my OP and we may be on to something about African descent and swimming. The farther away from neutral buoyancy someone is - the more effort they have to spend. That means slower. That’s all statistical, though. It doesn’t mean that African descended people can’t swim, I just think that some groups are more capable at some things than others. Again, that’s pretty much statistically. There’s no fast rules here. Again, I am talking about athletics - not intelligence or wisdom. I haven’t seen any difference between the “races” regarding those two. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-of-african-descent-such-bad-swimmers-not-as-racist-as-you-might-think/553218/14 "2010-09-09T20:39:53Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > > [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > > > On edit: This post is directed for all before **even sven** > > > > Can’t we have a discussion about the variations in humans without the peanut gallery? The first sentence in my OP should tell you what I am talking about. i.e. human variation. Your average Samoan is taller than your average Vietnamese. I am talking about body type in relation to ancestry. Please try to be scientific. > > So, what you’re saying is that you will only accept an answer that says it’s racial and physical even when the evidence points to it being cultural and a matter of exposure and money? No. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-of-african-descent-such-bad-swimmers-not-as-racist-as-you-might-think/553218/15 "2010-09-09T20:46:02Z")
My lifeguard buddies in Va Beach used to call blacks ‘rockfish’, because they were always having to rescue them. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-of-african-descent-such-bad-swimmers-not-as-racist-as-you-might-think/553218/16 "2010-09-09T20:55:11Z")
Let me make this clear. I want us, as humans, to be able discuss our biological differences in a rational and scientific way. “Race” is an imperfect concept, but it does give us a baseline about how the bodies of different humans work. A Kenyan has far more tolerance to UV rays than some pale Norwegian, but he can’t get the Vitamin D he need without sunlight. Everything is an evolutionary trade off. Humans are too damn similar for me to pick one more than the other as superior or inferior, but damnit there ARE statistical biological differences. I know full well there have been societal differences, but I want to examine the _biological_. ---
**Author:** ![Lanzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/74df32/32.png) [@Lanzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lanzy)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-of-african-descent-such-bad-swimmers-not-as-racist-as-you-might-think/553218/17 "2010-09-09T21:04:25Z")
I met a lot of black people in the Army that could not swim. I never met a single black person that could not learn to swim if they so desired. ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-of-african-descent-such-bad-swimmers-not-as-racist-as-you-might-think/553218/18 "2010-09-09T21:07:27Z")
I don’t know about black men, but black women hate to get their hair wet. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-of-african-descent-such-bad-swimmers-not-as-racist-as-you-might-think/553218/19 "2010-09-09T21:14:27Z")
> [@Lanzy](#): > > I met a lot of black people in the Army that could not swim. I never met a single black person that could not learn to swim if they so desired. There are hundreds of millions of black people across the planet that **do** know how to swim. How come they don’t make the Olympics? ---
**Author:** ![conway](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ec9cab/32.png) [@conway](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/conway)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-of-african-descent-such-bad-swimmers-not-as-racist-as-you-might-think/553218/20 "2010-09-09T21:43:40Z")
Some do: [Anthony Nesty - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Nesty), [Cullen Jones - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cullen_Jones), [Anthony Ervin - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Ervin) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-of-african-descent-such-bad-swimmers-not-as-racist-as-you-might-think/553218.md?page=2)