# Why are people of African descent such bad swimmers? (Not as racist as you might think) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 9, 2010, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-of-african-descent-such-bad-swimmers-not-as-racist-as-you-might-think/553218 "2010-09-09T20:00:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-of-african-descent-such-bad-swimmers-not-as-racist-as-you-might-think/553218/81 "2010-09-10T19:53:01Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > > [@jsgoddess](#): > > > > Lack of facilities to… um… facilitate swimming as a sport. > > I think there is something to this. I spent my early youth in Far Rockaway NY. I haven’t been back there in 15 years and the wiki page implies it is a largely Jewish neighborhood but when I was growing up it was predominantly black neighborhood with a noticable Jewish population (the only whites were Jews). It was right next to Far Rockaway Beach and there was a community pool. > > There were a lot of athletic black guys who took EVERYTHING athletic, very seriously and I couldn’t run, jump, throw or catch anywhere near as well as most of them, but I could outswim most (not the vast majority or anything but most) of the black kids in the neighborhood especially if it was for more than a couple of laps. > > I thought it was my naturally outstanding swimming ability which just evaporated when I went to college and proceeded to get lapped by chubby girls. > > I guarantee you that if these kids were good at swimming, they would have made it the most important sport in the neighborhood. But surely the Jews were better at basketball. Oh wait, this must have been after the great evolutionary change in the 40s. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-of-african-descent-such-bad-swimmers-not-as-racist-as-you-might-think/553218/82 "2010-09-10T20:00:39Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > > > I don’t know about that. Football and basketball players have lots of heavy muscle and bone density whereas competitive swimmers tend to be slender. > > But they put on that muscle deliberately because that’s the body type that works in their sports. I think someone with the athletic ability to succeed as a guard or forward in the NBA or at a skill position in the NFL could also be a good swimmer. Once they specialize in one sport they’re unlikely to be all that good in the pool. Tim Duncan of the Spurs was apparently a very good swimmer when he was growing up in the Virgin Islands. I don’t know how tall he was at that time, though. Just to follow up on this, I found that Michael Phelps is 6’4" and weighs about 200 pounds. Ian Thorpe is 6’5" and when he was swimming competitively, he was about 230 pounds. I think if you stood these guys up next to a running back or some NBA guards they wouldn’t look out of place. In fact they’re both bigger than some of the best point guards in the NBA and I think they’d be on the tall side as running backs. Their body types probably aren’t ideal for those sports (Phelps’ legs are proportionally rather small compared to his torso). They’re big athletes, though. Maybe they’re slender compared to power forwards but they’re not gymnasts or jockeys. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-of-african-descent-such-bad-swimmers-not-as-racist-as-you-might-think/553218/83 "2010-09-10T20:04:40Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > > [@jsgoddess](#): > > > > I feel like I’m being had at this point. > > No you are not being had. Name all the countries that send black athletes to the summer games. Then name all the black athletes that won in swimming. I wouldn’t be surprised if you told me that Sweden had Black members of their Olympic team. Its not just swimming. Its almost all winter sports as well. One explanation I received from a black woman for the lack of interest in skiing was “Its the middle of winter and you’re going to a fucking moutaintop for your vacation?” Of course this woman as from Detroit so I had to snicker a little bit because there are warmer places to live than Detroit but she seemed to think “the farther from the South the better” ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-of-african-descent-such-bad-swimmers-not-as-racist-as-you-might-think/553218/84 "2010-09-10T20:12:01Z")
> [@firstname](#): > > Dug up [this](http://www.slate.com/id/2260314/) article I remember reading on this topic. No, no its purely cultural. You see blacks don’t have access to water and whites don’t have access to land. Cuz rich kids get driven everywhere and the sidewalks are purely ornamental and black kids can’t afford membership to the country club where all the swimming pools are. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-of-african-descent-such-bad-swimmers-not-as-racist-as-you-might-think/553218/85 "2010-09-10T20:33:26Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > **sachertorte’s** post was too good for me not to respond to. > > I hear what you are saying. And I agree. But I was trained as a scientist and I still think like one. What I am trying to do here is look at one variable. I know it is naive to draw conclusions regarding race and athletics without factoring in the societal influences. But I am not trying to draw conclusions. But a scientist only looks at just one variable when they can either control the other variables or at least believe that the others are equally distributed across the populations. If you were thinking like a scientist you’d laugh at someone who jumped from the observation that Blacks are not as well represented in the ranks of elite swimming as White Australians and White Americans to the conclusion that biologic factors MUST play a role. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-of-african-descent-such-bad-swimmers-not-as-racist-as-you-might-think/553218/86 "2010-09-10T20:35:27Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > > [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > > > First off, let me make it clear that blacks are just as smart as white’s, asians, native Americans, etc. > > Cite? (Not for the accidental possessive, but for the idea all groups have equal intelligence 😉 .) > > I have reviewed an extensive body of literature on this topic and take an opposite position (as many posters here know), and I can only think of a bare handful out of tens of thousands of cross-race comparisons which show anything close to equivalent outcomes among SIRE race-based (Self-Identified Race/Ethnicity) cohorts on any sort of quantitative study. The overwhelming body of literature shows race-based differences on direct IQ tests and indirect cognitive-based tests such as educational examinations. These differences persist even when nurturing variables such as parental education or wealth are accounted for. While there is plenty of argument about whether the cause of intelligence differences is nature or nurture, what there is NOT is any credible evidence that SIRE cohorts are equally “smart.” > > The default assumption you post here that there is some sort of Grand Egalitarian Design for biologically-based intelligence is precisely the reason the thread so far has so many posters jumping on your back. No race egalitarian trusts someone who proposes biologic differences likely account for physical performance differences. Such a position opens the door for biologic differences accounting for intelligence differences as well. > > It is much safer to take a position (as most do here) that “race” is too inchoate a category to be a meaningful grouping, and that nurturing variables are so complex as to permanently render any other explanation suspect. > > I have essentially given up on the SDMB, not because I did not enjoy my time here, but because the default assumption of biologic egalitarianism is so permanently ingrained it becomes offensive to many posters here to post otherwise. For some reason egalitarians are able to admit that gene prevalence for sickle cell disease can vary by race, but gene prevalence for genes supporting intelligence cannot. Moreover many take the position that although all sorts of gene prevalences vary by SIRE groups, “race is a social/cultural phenomenon.” > > Makes me smile every time. I think the problem is that it is obvious that you are trying to make a case for explaining away the effects of racism by saying “they’re not poor because of 400 years of slavery another hundred years of segregation, they’re poor because they’re stupid, after all they got the right to vote almost 40 years ago, WTF is taking them so long?” ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-of-african-descent-such-bad-swimmers-not-as-racist-as-you-might-think/553218/87 "2010-09-10T20:41:13Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I think the problem is that it is obvious that you are trying to make a case for explaining away the effects of racism by saying “they’re not poor because of 400 years of slavery another hundred years of segregation, they’re poor because they’re stupid, after all they got the right to vote almost 40 years ago, WTF is taking them so long?” ::Golf clap:: ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-of-african-descent-such-bad-swimmers-not-as-racist-as-you-might-think/553218/88 "2010-09-10T20:42:21Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > So if they can tell ‘race’ by looking at a skeleton, that would mean bone density and thickness doesn’t vary within populations.:rolleyes: Where did I say that? ---
**Author:** ![Peeta\_Mellark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bc8723/32.png) [@Peeta\_Mellark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peeta_Mellark)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-of-african-descent-such-bad-swimmers-not-as-racist-as-you-might-think/553218/89 "2010-09-10T20:48:40Z")
[Is Swimming the Next Great African-American Sport?](http://www.blackvoices.com/black_sports/special/_a/rising-tide-is-swimming-the-next-great/20050711083509990001) > [@](#): > > The Dolphins are among a growing number of predominantly black clubs taking to the pools across the United States. Major urban areas including Philadelphia, Washington, Chicago, Atlanta and Detroit have teams, and their swimmers travel to meets across the country. > > … > > Few African Americans have risen to the upper echelon of swimming. The U.S. Olympic team has had only two black swimmers in its history. > > … > > The only blacks to make the U.S. Olympic team, however, have won medals. > > Anthony Ervin earned a gold in 2000 and Maritza Correia won a silver in 2004. Correia was a major attraction at the Charlotte meet, signing autographs and offering encouragement to the swimmers. > > “This whole experience is incredible,” she said. “It’s one of the first meets I’ve been to with so many African Americans. It’s a different feeling, but it’s awesome.” Give it twenty years for the children of these kids to hit high school. Suddenly people will be asking if there’s some special quality that makes blacks such _good_ swimmers. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-of-african-descent-such-bad-swimmers-not-as-racist-as-you-might-think/553218/90 "2010-09-10T20:56:33Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > > > I think the problem is that it is obvious that you are trying to make a case for explaining away the effects of racism by saying “they’re not poor because of 400 years of slavery another hundred years of segregation, they’re poor because they’re stupid, after all they got the right to vote almost 40 years ago, WTF is taking them so long?” > > ::Golf clap:: Isn’t the golf clap supposed to be sarcastic? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-of-african-descent-such-bad-swimmers-not-as-racist-as-you-might-think/553218/91 "2010-09-10T20:57:35Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > > [@Marley23](#): > > > > ::Golf clap:: > > Isn’t the golf clap supposed to be sarcastic? It can be, but that one wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-of-african-descent-such-bad-swimmers-not-as-racist-as-you-might-think/553218/92 "2010-09-10T20:58:54Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > > [@TriPolar](#): > > > > So if they can tell ‘race’ by looking at a skeleton, that would mean bone density and thickness doesn’t vary within populations.:rolleyes: > > Where did I say that? Post #69: _Here’s another one: Forensic scientists and archaeologists can tell race by looking at a skeleton. You ever wonder how?_ If you can look at a skeleton and determine ‘race’ that would mean there is no variation within populations, and the populations are distinctly different from each other. Or is ‘race’ not related to populations? Maybe ‘race’ is not genetic, is that it? ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-of-african-descent-such-bad-swimmers-not-as-racist-as-you-might-think/553218/93 "2010-09-10T21:07:44Z")
Wow. Are you saying forensic science is bullshit? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-of-african-descent-such-bad-swimmers-not-as-racist-as-you-might-think/553218/94 "2010-09-10T21:09:43Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > Does anybody deny that people from African descent have heavier and denser bones? Does anybody deny that people from West Africa have a higher percentage of “fast twitch” red muscles? Does anybody realize that we are ALL animals, and should be looked at as such? Does anyone deny that every person on the planet is of African descent? ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-of-african-descent-such-bad-swimmers-not-as-racist-as-you-might-think/553218/95 "2010-09-10T21:12:32Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] Does anyone deny that every person on the planet is of African descent? [/QUOTE] Does anyone deny life evolved from single celled organisms? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-of-african-descent-such-bad-swimmers-not-as-racist-as-you-might-think/553218/96 "2010-09-10T21:15:11Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > [QUOTE=Contrapuntal] > Does anyone deny that every person on the planet is of African descent? Does anyone deny life evolved from single celled organisms? [/QUOTE] I doubt it. What’s your point? ? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-of-african-descent-such-bad-swimmers-not-as-racist-as-you-might-think/553218/97 "2010-09-10T21:34:11Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > Wow. Are you saying forensic science is bullshit? A forensic anthropologist would know that the important word here, > [@linked site](#): > > In addition to assisting in locating and recovering suspicious remains, forensic anthropologists work to suggest the age, sex, **ancestry** , stature, and unique features of a decedent from the skeleton." isn’t the one you’ve bolded. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-of-african-descent-such-bad-swimmers-not-as-racist-as-you-might-think/553218/98 "2010-09-10T22:07:29Z")
I for one am happy to see that we’ve managed to arrive at the conclusion that there is no such thing as race, as it means there can be no such thing as racism and we all can now live happily ever after. Why is it that the people most sensitive to racism - even to the point of making accusations of racism where it doesn’t exist - are also the quickest to claim there’s no such thing as race? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-of-african-descent-such-bad-swimmers-not-as-racist-as-you-might-think/553218/99 "2010-09-10T22:10:21Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I for one am happy to see that we’ve managed to arrive at the conclusion that there is no such thing as race, as it means there can be no such thing as racism and we all can now live happily ever after. > > Why is it that the people most sensitive to racism - even to the point of making accusations of racism where it doesn’t exist - are also the quickest to claim there’s no such thing as race? Well done, sir. Well done. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-of-african-descent-such-bad-swimmers-not-as-racist-as-you-might-think/553218/100 "2010-09-10T22:12:32Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Why is it that the people most sensitive to racism - even to the point of making accusations of racism where it doesn’t exist - are also the quickest to claim there’s no such thing as race? Does this really need to get asked every thread? Because it gets answered in every thread and keeps popping up. There is no biological basis for stereotyped notions of race, which is what people mean when they say “there’s no such thing as race.” Culturally, people have been dividing themselves up along racial lines for ages and discriminating against other groups of people forever. That’s real. So if some idiot says “I hate niggers,” he’s really hating a group of people even though the connection between those people is nonsense or doesn’t exist. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-of-african-descent-such-bad-swimmers-not-as-racist-as-you-might-think/553218.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-people-of-african-descent-such-bad-swimmers-not-as-racist-as-you-might-think/553218.md?page=6)