Much much much more limited. When people really want to seriously discuss the effects of genes, culture, non-genetic biologic factors, environment, etc, on human outcomes, then careless use of the word “race” is a lazy approach that allows for sloppy thinking and obfuscates serious discussion more often than it clarifies.
I know you know that. But I’m not sure of your point now. Only some ‘black’ people are dumb, because there are only some ‘black’ republicans?
I don’t know what your whole point is about ‘race’ anyway. The concept of ‘race’ certainly exists, that’s what you keep talking about. But I contend that someone who removes the presupposition of race from their minds, and examines the evidence, will see it has no scientific basis. There are populations, and groups of related populations. This is the result of natural and political boundaries that are rapidly disappearing. The size of the numerous different populations is shrinking as those boundaries disappear. Some time, maybe even now, most people will not fit into any specific population.
You seem to be stuck with idea that ‘race’ must exist because so many people say so, and you have your own definition of it too. But if you look through just this thread, you will see if redefined to suit each particular argument supplied to justify its existence. You cited an anthropologist who didn’t want to say there was no such thing as ‘race’ to focus on the evidence, which showed once again, there is no such thing as ‘race’. You sound like you are cherry picking the words of people and ignoring their own conclusions.
The part of this whole discussion that continues to amuse me is the idea that there is evidence that any ‘race’ or population, or group of population has better ability to swim than others. Do you really consider the Olympics some kind of controlled test that compares results between populations? Do you think Olympic athletes are there because of a system designed to represent the typical member of any genetic grouping?
I’m bored with this whole discussion now. So I’ll ask all the ‘race’ proponents to cite their evidence of an meaningful effect that can actually be shown to relate to populations, or even the selective definitions of ‘race’ in use. At least Chief Pedant does that with IQ results. A Monkey With a Gun got close with forensic anthropology, but he couldn’t tell the difference between a statistical probability, and determinate results. If someone can come up with two such correlations that conform to the same strict definition of ‘race’, I’d start reexaming the evidence. But so far, I’ve never seen evidence that can accurately to anything larger than a few population which diminish in size each day. If the whole eugenic argument had any bearing, the ‘racists’ would say that the descendents of slaves would have both superior intelligence and physical performance based on their genetic history.
In the mean time I’ll keep saying ‘there is no such thing as race’ because it is an easy way to reveal a person’s motives based on their reaction.
For the record, the evidence is clear the IQ results have a genetic factor, and some populations have a lower incidence of whatever genetic structures produce high IQ scores. Deal with it. But I couldn’t care less about what anybody’s IQ score is, or why it is that way.
A fast review of human history clearly shows one group (race if you like)
warring and subduing an other.
No better way to weed out a population than by war. It takes only one generation, a couple days of genocide and killing, and if there are any left of the defeated to multiply the remaining traits will be dominates. It is a no brainer here folks, and nothing new to man kind, and no PhD needed.
To put it lightly man is nothing but a nasty killing bastard, and experiment of nature that went whacko.
What does the skin color have to with brain power? You can see the enemy better and you can make a distinction so you don’t kill your own kind in the heat of war. Then we got smart and invented uniforms—how nice.
No matter how you cut it, it is “us v. them” and the white man’s philosophy has hardly changed in untold thousands of years. Move into new lands with large numbers marching in war, subdue the land of all the other native bipeds, slave the inhabitance and use them to build your new cities and plow your new fields.
If the slaves get out of line kill them as Sparta did to over 23,000 slaves they took in war so the slave numbers do not out do the ruling class. Of course Spartans kept the better slaves and killed the weaker ones (less desirable) first. Of the “good looking” females from the slave population, they were kept alive for some reason—you figure it out.
Whites did nothing less in the USA continent for 200 years than what they did all threw out history. Horrid and despicable, but how in hell did you think we became white and the shapers and movers, and creators of all human history.
We should have never taken the blacks out of Africa and brought them to the new lands as slaves---- NEVER! Of all the utterly stupid things to do that was it—even in the name of Christianity of all the idiocy!
To make up for this filthy stupidity, and carnage to the blacks in great pain and suffering, it is imposible to do. What are we going to say? We killed off your great grand parents to the fifth generation so you could be born a strong bull? Ha ha ha—like that makes peace, but yet to a large extent it is a fact. Should we tell the truth? Your black brother got sick on the slave ship headed to the Americas so whites threw him over board while he was still alive to clean your genetics of being prone to illness — sounds like war to me all over again but yet was a fact.
OH yeah lets get real sneaky about the brutality, as the Muslims did. In the name of Merciful Allah I here by give you “black man” your freedom. You are free to leave! YOU are FREE at last for all your hard years of labor and abuse and NOW as an old man (woman) you are free!
Of course freedom was walking out into the desert to die being old and weak whose labor is not worth the food or water, —but let’s not bring that little fact up as ALLAH is great and understanding. (you can puke here if you like_________.)
Perhaps the whites could use the argument—you blacks OWE US Whites as without US you would be lion food in Africa crapped out on some grass lands. NO, that argument will not work, we made them too strong by selective breeding and by the civil rights act of the 60’s. Not only that but get a mob of black males in one spot and the lions will run and hide, bet me. Gang war fair has deep roots, greater than the whites ever created. Just look at a pack of dogs, they can bring down anything on land. As if whites are better than a pack of dogs with their black counter parts that nature has provided.
Maybe whites should shut the fuck up, and learn how to live with the mess they created. Isn’t this a sweet heart deal. When it come to mock battles, as sports, I bet my money on the blacks and I will make a fortune. I’m all ready filthy rich, white, and hated even by my own kind, so what is a few more dollars to my name?
I guess the point of this thread has been lost. I think it is, why aren’t blacks taking more medals in (white) man made swimming contest? YOU should leave us whites one place to say we are the best in sports, or I will have to buy you out and kick your family out into the street. Then I would be like a fucking Muslim doing the work of Allah.
Fact is and I lie NOT. I was raised in southern Florida and on the Keys. There were plenty of very good black swimmers; with their large chest, and strength, they could hold more air than I in deep dives. They were strong and graceful in the water, never fearful of the great deep.
Noble people the blacks were in Florida. They were kind and honest, lovers of life, and proved themselves worthy to be of the human race in greatness of the many goods.
I was told many times by the blacks in Florida where I grew up, and the blacks backed it up by strong works saying; WE blacks here in the Florida Keys, are NOT your ghetto loven druggers, niggers, in the north east. We are better than they.
This gives me hope for the human race.
The blacks may have been the better simmers in the Keys and in Southern Florida than I, but I always got the bigger fish and more of them. I was smarter and I learned fast where to look and how to get the fish. So I shared my catch with many blacks and I loved it in merry feast and parties.
Maybe the blacks are not interested in your white swimming contest. But if they ever do, I hope RACE is acknowledged and not down played. I’M proud to be a white, blond, blue eyed male, and nothing will rob me of my genetics. I want MY white history, in fact, and I make no apologies.
Don
[quote=“TriPolar, post:222, topic:553218”]
And those populations correspond to traditional continental races.
Did you read this study I referred to above? Also, there is the issue of greater bone density.
http://news.discovery.com/human/belly-buttons-sports-athletes.html
http://news.discovery.com/human/belly-buttons-sports-athletes.html
No doubt your argument of treating black slaves as “ white humans” was wide spread in the new USA states.
So laws were past that you cannot sell a black child before the age of 12.—OH like this is an improvement, and forget enforcement of the law as freed blacks slaved, bred, and sold their own kind.
It took a massive USA civil war, whites killing whites to about a million dead of prime breeding stock, to straighten this shit out—and do whites get any thanks from the blacks?—HELL NO! Whites must now be the slaves of blacks to make up for all the brutality. But NO mater if whites were slaved in all generations worldwide.
MANY Blacks are too stupid to realize that I a white, I (my linage) have been subject to the same brutality—but NO matter— in today’s age we cram the “law” down the black’s throat in the hopes they may learn something. And the stupid blacks still protest—there is No hope if you look at the head lines in the news papers.
The entire subject of USA race relations (white v. black) is enough to make me vomit. The blacks making the waves are utterly stupid as Martin Luther king Jr. and Obama; that Obama was never a USA slave, nor his linage, yet he wants retributions for the blacks at white expense.
Here are my restitutions to the blacks, I spit on the street, yo can pick it up if you like, and here is why. From 1732 in what was to become the USA to this date, by valid family records shown; my white family NEVER took a slave of any kind. In fact we fought against bringing blacks in from Africa or any other place that NO MAN should at any time can own another! That we are FREE creatures unto Christ—that we (whites) are charged to be the best, do the best, be the most wealthy by honest works and contracts, and to be great in charitable gifts, building humanity to a better future; to do this MORE than ALL the others! Because we are the very BEST of God’s creation—and we put the “Hard Works” where the cheap mouth is.
I stand by my white family, my white creed, and my white history. I do not owe a black a GD thing, along with any other human. Much less any lip service.
Can blacks be better swimmers than whites—Well HELL dude! Get the backs out into the water, pay the add fees, put 70 million bucks on a hook in front the blacks and see what they can do.
I’m fair game; why would I say blacks can not swim when they have untold generations before them?
What I want to see in blacks is hard told. I want to see resilience, and stomach grinding fortitude channeled into GOOD “universal” noble works.
Build! Build every thing high, build great unto the stars, build in law and in great social works of justice, build as Christ was a carpenter and set the example for man to come.
Yeah I’m an atheist, but the example of Christ kept my white family safe and ON track, they could jump right over the pits of failure, and achieve the many goods IN FACT.
And there was a time when Christianity did not exist but we whites, at least some of us, we were still guided by the many goods even after many defeats. Resilience is what I seek and I count as noble. I would say resilience is a genetic trait, born in the fire, as so many humans are lacking it. Blaming others as Obama, and blacks do, is NOT resilience but rather defeat.
You are a black and YOU want to swim for glory and wealth—I say go for it, all the laws are in place for your protection and prosperity, so what is holding you back? Do not blame me as your life is in your own hands and NOT mine. I NOT a slave owner, I never have been, so get over it.
Don
Ok, I read the author confirming what I am saying. There are genetic differences between populations, or clusters. But he didn’t correspond those to meaningful differences in ability according to a consistent definition of ‘race’. Note his statistic about Jews and IQ scores. But there are significant genetic differences across the varying populations of Jews. He’ll have to continue slicing up the pie to explain Tay-Sachs. I must have missed the part where anybody in those cites performed a scientific study of swimming ability among populations. Take the case of women’s gymnastics where everybody keeps agreeing that short stature is advantageous. How many Bolivian women have won gold at the Olympics.
I don’t argue with the result of finding clusters of genetic structures. I argue that those clusters get redefined for every effect studied. And those clusters don’t conform to peoples concepts of ‘race’. Use the word if you like. Don’t pretend it’s uses are consistent though.
Just to be clear, I don’t really consider gymnastics or swimming ability to be all that meaningful anyway. But swimming was the topic of this thread. Monkey could have specified that he was talking about populations that have a significant difference in navel position or bone density to start with. But he chose to use an ambiguous definition of race.
Also, isn’t anybody catching on that I’m being deliberately provocative by using the phrase ‘there is no such thing as race’?
You could say that about any number of other categories that 1.) exist along a continuum and 2.) the borders of which are socially defined.
For instance, you could say there’s no such thing as culture.
Note that the HapMap Project is cataloging human genetic diversity according to racial groups (under the euphemism human populations) .
- Professor Andre Bejan of Duke University.
I’m very puzzled by this statement quoted earlier. I’ve been involved in hull design for boats, and I can assure you that a prime objective to minimize drag and wasted energy is to get the entry wave down as low as possible
Don123, you’ve been warned about posting this kind of garbage before. If you want to post broad based critiques of races, do it somewhere else on the internet. Your comments don’t add anything to this discussion.
Aside from being only marginally coherent, this text really says nothing about the issue. No one has claimed that black slaves had an unfettered access to all other black slaves for the purpose of matrimony, (or even copulation). However, the discussion has been in regards to breeding–with the explicit use of the word in the sense of selective breeding for preferentil traits.
That claim was wrong and nothing you have posted comes close to correcting the error.
So what? Nothing in this statement indicates that the white owners selectively bred their slaves for specific traits such as strength or stupidity. Keeping a record of events that one does not control is not the way one conducts selective breeding–and selective breeding was the erroneous claim of Jimmy Snyder and Mozart1220.
You make several errors, here. First, there is not a very good correlation between the raw strength needed to be a field hand and the passive stamina needed to survive extreme conditions. (Look at the Donner Party history, where the group that suffered the highest rate of mortality was the group of young men in their prime.) It is probably true that the absolute weakest people died in the Middle Passage and stamina is a good trait to have in a field worker, but the numbers that survived were high enough to preclude the probability that they were necessarily the most physically fit. They only needed to be “fit enough” to survive. Then there is the fact that a lot of slaves were born of unions with whites or North American Indians, thus diluting whatever strong strain you want to assert resulted from the Middle Passage winnowing.
Finally, you are asserting that selective breeding was carried out despite the fact that you have not produced any evidence that such a thing ever happened. Even your linked site does not claim what you claim for it–in fact, it denies it explicitly:
According to your link, “breeding” was generally rejected by Southern Society. The one case for “breeding” that is mentioned only began in 1840, far too late to affect the millions of blacks in the U.S. Beyond that, nothing is said about any selective breeding. It would appear that Ellison tried to keep certain slave women pregnant to provide more slaves to sell, but it appears to have been a wholesale operation, looking for quantity, not quality.
So your claim for “selective” breeding remains nothing more than an imagined scenario, unsupported by any evidence.
I have called no one racist, so you are clearly making up things about which to insult me. The accusation of a straw man argument was laid out pretty clearly: you attacked a position that I have not held and that is pretty much the definition of a straw man.
That is odd. You posted a link showing that most states had laws against selling children, yet you assert that it was a common practice. You are just wrong.
As to killing slaves, it certainly happened, but even a weaker slave was more valuable alive than dead and there is no record of mass slayings of slaves between 1663 and 1865. If you have evidence of your claim, produce it or I will simply laugh at one more of your invented histories.
This is silly. For control purposes, they selected people from a limited number of geographic locations rather than from all human populations. However, it makes far more sense for them to refer to the groups as populations so that if the research is enlarged in the future, there will not be squabbling over which “races” are being added. Population has been the word long used in biology to identify genetically related groups. It is hardly a euphemism; it simply makes sense to us a descriptive word that has meaning rather than a vague word for which the meaning shifts depending on who is speaking and what year it is.
Sometimes I hate the SDMB. Especially when people are intentionally obtuse instead of answering a question directly.
There is no such thing as race—
I counted that statement as a stupid poster that is common on the net. Perhaps a black wanting to merge into white society, without make up, saying, “You see me as black but I’m white in heart.” What a joke.
Yeah right what ever.
Perhaps we should argue if “kiss ass” is a genetic trait and how far you can swim in it?
Look , if the black population wants to take over the swimming contest they will do it— even by changing the rules, and name calling, and having their own swimming contest in their own pools. I say fine well and good, I will not stop them.
In the mean time I’m out collecting rents by the millions, and paying to have the black swimming pool built—so blame me, as the blacks cannot do it on their own to date.
You do not get it, blacks need whites, whites do not need blacks— I’m doing all I can to separate the races, so there is clarity and so blacks can have their own pride built on their own works and ingenuities of resources. I do not want blacks leaning on me, why? I’m not their owner, nor am I in control of what they do, be it swimming or other wise.
Look, for the last 5,000 years whites made this earth, and all science, and writing, all history what it is—for better or for worse. I say stand back and let the other races have a shot at it and see if they can do better.
Hey all the world is watching Dude. You want to swim and take the 100 million, plus endorsements— then go for it. If you blacks feel frogy then hop to it. Today is a good day, as good as any other.
You know what I find is a hard argument to deal with and to combat, —and that is success. I may not understand how the internal combustion engine works but I can certainly see it go fast in a car. PROOF, scientific proofs, is in the works—no doubt about it. If black can go to the moon and beyond, using their own culture and beliefs, I might paint my face black just to blend in.
But so far what is the black contributions to society> as with Muslims, what are their contributions to the advancement of the human race? Not much. If swimming and butt heading in ball games does it for you, then I have no argument. As I am the white man that bought the bonds that paid for the stadium with a good return in cash no matter who wins; and every black player that is injured on the field is great cash in my pocket. So I say GO FOR IT, be the first black swimmer to break a record—cash talks and BS walks, nothing new here. But I bet you this, I will make good money off it. I will even pay to prosecute the blacks that tried to kill your black ass—how do you love me now?
You see in Florida I (a white) had no problem growing up with blacks—the line was clear between us and NO hate between us, and certainly NO wars, and blacks even fought against blacks when some of them blacks committed crimes—and it got heated as to blacks going against black drug dealers and black rapist—black robbers and other such human filth. Honest law abiding blacks did take a stand for justice (taught by the whites) and I a white, but I was NOT invited into their culture. So be it. It was black dealings and whites are not invited.
That is when I took up the LAW as a personal study and blacks were still swimming for entertainment. I knew as a fact there is a great line between us that only genetics could explain. I needed answers and black history had nothing to offer, they were to busy swimming and enjoying life, of what I have no complaint; but not for me as a white man. I wanted more, much more, more depth, more understanding, more history, and more money for sure, more than making hats on the street of course.
I ended up hiring the blacks I grew up with, I increased their markets, I gave them a guaranteed return for their products, I organized their raw materials for their production, and I paid cash up front to them, and I made big the bucks---- so let the blacks swim and play ball I have NO restraints to them, as I have the real money and they do not.
I want people to be happy and long life in peace and pain free, but I’m white to the bone and I live to my nature, indeed I have No choice other wise. In USA legal cases that I have been involved with, to hurt a black is NOT tolerated because of color; I will (have) taken up arms accordingly to put the criminal behind bars, or dead, all legal as to the courts.
To hurt a black because of color, this hurts my bottom financial line. I can honestly say my first millions were made off blacks and I do not forget it, but I still support my white kind in my personal life.
Let the blacks swim and see how far they get, I will be watching.
Don
Wow, this thread didn’t get any smarter.
Since I’m the only one that seems to know a damn thing, I am going to provide a rebuttal for my own OP. Maybe the idiots on both sides will learn something.
That’s an interesting premise, Monkey but it has two flaws. First, you are basing part of your idle and slightly drunken hypothesis on the density of fast and slow twitch muscle fibers. Think for a second about that. There’s really no density difference between thew two. If there is, it’s pretty damn negligible.
Second, though differences in bone density have been well documented (at least the NIH seems to think so), how much does that really mean? Think about percentage of body weight. It’s really not that much, when you think in terms of buoyancy. Michael Phelps is going to sink like a stone with all that muscle weight. The dude obviously did not win all those gold medals because of lighter bones.
All I am saying with that post is that the OP was an idle thought, and I am severely disappointed in the SDMB’s intellectual wherewithal to not point out the basic flaws in the biological argument.
Instead, it became a train wreck, where every one has to trot out their personal pet views on race and politics. Five pages of argumentative bullshit.
Hey! I tried to give you a chance, and then you started calling everybody idiots. By then you were so frustrated you were doing the same thing as everyone else. Been there, done that. Don’t feel bad, dust yourself off and try again. I don’t think you’re that bad. It’s just a game in this kind of thread.
Edit: Glad to see you addresses the swimming issue.
I already told you to stop this, so now I’m giving you a formal warning. You cannot call people idiots in this forum.
Don123, this is your second warning in this thread. Your personal issues with black people are not relevant to this conversation, and not every thread is an excuse for you to trot out your biography.
I see your Gill and raise you the Social Science Research Council participants on race:
Troy Duster [
](http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/307/5712/1050?ijkey=CrQywbf6JKCIs&keytype=ref&siteid=sci)
Alan Goodman[
](http://raceandgenomics.ssrc.org/Goodman/)
Joseph L. Graves, Jr (talking about a recent conference on race/genetics[
](What We Know and What We Don’t Know: Human Genetic Variation and the Social Construction of Race)
Evelynn M. Hammonds[
](Straw Men and Their Followers: The return of biological race)
Ruth Hubbard (This is more humourous then educational, but still good)[
](Race & Genes)
Jay Kaufman (The ‘slavery hypothesis’ -‘selective breeding’- was brought up just a few posts ago too :D) [
](The Anatomy of a Medical Myth)
Nancy Krieger[
](If “race” is the answer, what is the question?—on “race,” racism, and health: a social epidemiologist’s perspective)
Roger N. Lancaster (he talks on how racialists remove exactly what is needed today; “an expansive social imagination; a serious analysis of how race, class, gender, and sexuality are articulated in a changing political economy”
R.C. Lewontin (You gotta have love for Lewontin; he is “a straight up OG” when it comes to breaking the old race paradigm. I really can’t quote one single line without missing the whole story…I suggest reading his article for a good, straightforward approach by a geneticist)[
](Confusions About Human Races)
Jonathan Marks (just outstanding in highlighting the silliness/subjective nature of the history in creating “the races”) [
](The Realities of Races)
Ann Morning(I don’t like this one because it’s ultimately proposing a compromise with some of the less rigid racialists but here is what she has to say)[
](On Distinction)
Brady Dunklee; Jenny Reardon; Kara Wentworth (These guys are really just students and their essay is highly quizzical in nature, but they do take Leroi to task for misrepresenting the stances of the authors of this edition of Nature genetics)[
](Race and Crisis)
Jacqueline Stevens[
](Eve is from Adam's Rib, the Earth is Flat, and Races Come from Genes)
I really don’t expect anyone to read all of that in one sitting, but nonetheless it’s there for you to peruse. If one reads racialist blogs one will not be exposed to the current scientifically discussed viewpointson race.
And (as always) I want to link to some my previous postson science and race (chock full of even more links/quotes).
Instead of my erroneous ‘double link’ I meant to link to this post of mine.
I will abide by your warning, but I am disgusted with the level of debate here. On both sides.
In fact, I am so fucking disgusted that I want you, as moderator, to lock this useless thread. I am the OP.