Is it “people from Africa” or “people of African descent” (whatever that means)? Because they’re not the same, I think.
Yes.
This is what I’m arguing:
You have a phenomenon: People who fit your visual notion of “African descent” aren’t very often represented on the podium for outstanding swimmers.
You are absolutely requiring that people in this thread scramble around to find biological reasons why people who fit your visual notion of “African descent” aren’t very often (and you’re also defining “very often” and forcing us into that definition) represented on the podium for outstanding swimmers.
You accuse others in the thread of trying to force reality to fit our constructs, ignoring your huge leap of demanding a biological reason for what might be a cultural construct.
You ignore the incredible diversity of body types and (as of this last) hair types for people of African descent.
You ignore the lack of other “races” represented on the podium for outstanding swimmers.
You stomp off in a huff, temporarily it seems, when people don’t want to play your games.
Does that about sum it up? Do you need a flowchart?
You know, I give up. This is needlessly and ridiculously argumentative. I have previously said in this thread that race is an imperfect concept, but now posters are trying to put me in a corner regarding my assertion that people from African descent have a genetic trait for curly hair.
That is absurd and ridiculous and I am not going to play anymore.
And a restomping, now with improved huff.
The bit about people of African descent having kinky hair might’ve been more accurate if it were restricted to people of sub-Saharan African descent. If it’s just “people of African descent” it includes a lot of Arabs and they’re not known for that kind of hair. But I don’t know if the more restrictive definition is really better. People of African descent in the U.S. often have some white ancestry, which confounds the hair issue and also the bone density and other issues. Frankly the cultural explanation is a lot more convincing here.
The color black is heavier than white. White is a nice light color.
You can certainly control for access and incentive to perform, but frankly, when you are talking about olympic medalists, you are talking about such a small percentage of super-elite athletes. I think individual personality and drive to perform separates athletes at that level, at least, inasmuch as biologically inherited traits. Can you control for personality type in any meaningful way?
Call it huff 2.0
I may come back, but I absolutely refuse to get in an argument about what constitutes “African”. I know the place is a big continent. I know the variations in genetics across the continent more than you do. Here’s an interesting tidbit: What rational, non needlessly argumentative people, call “African Americans” have more genetic markers in common with “European Americans” than they do with Eastern Africans. Bet you didn’t know that.
Yes, genetics are varied and interesting. But you find find thicker bones in pretty much all Africans than you do in Europeans and Asians. Look up osteoporosis and ask yourself why it affects white women the most.
Here’s another one: Forensic scientists and archaeologists can tell race by looking at a skeleton. You ever wonder how?
They’re bigots?
As an addendum : Forensic Anthroplogy
Bone density and thickness varies across populations. Does everybody get that? Please?
I don’t think that is what people are saying at all. If anything, I would think the high level of athletic prowess shown by black people in other sports makes it more likely that black people are genetically predisposed to be GOOD swimmers. Why should I think black people are genetically bad swimmers? Why should that be the default assumption? The idea that the lack of success by black people is evidence is terrible. Black people were under-represented in major sport for decades… for cultural reasons (bigotry). For all we know, 50 years from now Kenya could be the dominant long distance swimming nation to go along with all the marathoning.
The fact is, cultural pressures explain the lack of black swimmers much more easily (Occam). Perhaps if you found a study that showed that professional baseball players and football players and basketball players can’t fucking swim to save their lives, you would have a stronger point. In other words, if success in one area was provably a detriment to the other, then I could see the argument. But I think that assertion is nuts. Personally, I think a good athlete makes a good candidate for a good swimmer.
A Monkey With a Gun, if you want to continue this discussion in Great Debates, do it without the exasperated asides and the insults toward everyone who does not accept the premises of your debate. That stuff belongs in the Pit.
noted
I quoted that post in its entirety because it’s intelligent. And it’s not about freaking hair. This is the kind of post I want from this thread.
I don’t know about that. Football and basketball players have lots of heavy muscle and bone density whereas competitive swimmers tend to be slender.
sachertorte’s post was too good for me not to respond to.
I hear what you are saying. And I agree. But I was trained as a scientist and I still think like one. What I am trying to do here is look at one variable. I know it is naive to draw conclusions regarding race and athletics without factoring in the societal influences. But I am not trying to draw conclusions.
I want to look at one variable. One alone. The variation in phenotype across populations. Why can’t white men jump?
But they put on that muscle deliberately because that’s the body type that works in their sports. I think someone with the athletic ability to succeed as a guard or forward in the NBA or at a skill position in the NFL could also be a good swimmer. Once they specialize in one sport they’re unlikely to be all that good in the pool. Tim Duncan of the Spurs was apparently a very good swimmer when he was growing up in the Virgin Islands. I don’t know how tall he was at that time, though.
I think there is something to this. I spent my early youth in Far Rockaway NY. I haven’t been back there in 15 years and the wiki page implies it is a largely Jewish neighborhood but when I was growing up it was predominantly black neighborhood with a noticable Jewish population (the only whites were Jews). It was right next to Far Rockaway Beach and there was a community pool.
There were a lot of athletic black guys who took EVERYTHING athletic, very seriously and I couldn’t run, jump, throw or catch anywhere near as well as most of them, but I could outswim most (not the vast majority or anything but most) of the black kids in the neighborhood especially if it was for more than a couple of laps.
I thought it was my naturally outstanding swimming ability which just evaporated when I went to college and proceeded to get lapped by chubby girls.
I guarantee you that if these kids were good at swimming, they would have made it the most important sport in the neighborhood.
So if they can tell ‘race’ by looking at a skeleton, that would mean bone density and thickness doesn’t vary within populations.:rolleyes:
There is no doubt that culture plays a huge role. The question is, “might different races, do to physical differences that align with their races, be better at certain sport than others? And/or better at a particular sport than other races?”
I think that running is a perfect place to look. You need virtually no equipment, nor any special facility. All kids do it as part of “play”. Yet, we look to the best runners ion the world and we see two things: sprinting is dominated by West Africans and long distance running is dominated by East Africans. This is in spite of any advantage that wealthier, non-black regions might afford other runners. Additionally, look at the NFL virtually every speed position on every team is held by a person of African descent.
We also look at the Strongest Man competitions, they are almost always won, not be just a white person, but one of Scandinavian or Slavic descent. The size of these guys alone is amazing.
As far as swimming in particular, I would not be surprised if one race was naturally better suited to being better at it than others. I also wouldn’t be surprised at first glance, following your logic, if blacks would, in fact, be superior swimmers. But I’m also not going to be surprised that there might be some other not so obvious factors that might indicate that they would be not ideal candidates for elite swimming. Heavier bones, for instance.
I do think that swimming is a difficult sport to look at, as their is a HUGH cultural component.