Why are people still buying tank water heaters?

Could you cite the less expensive part before this thread goes much further? Because the systems I looked at cost more. And from what I’ve read the difference can’t easily be justified.

From Green building Advisor
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To find the answers to all of these questions, a group of researchers in Minnesota undertook a monitoring study to measure the performance of tank-type and tankless water heaters in actual homes. The researchers concluded that most tankless water heaters will fall apart from old age before they save enough energy to justify their high cost.*

A common venting solution is to use concentric PVC pipes, with the cold air coming in the center tube and the hot exhaust surrounding it. This improves the efficiency and also helps to cool the exhaust.

Furthermore, many units are installed outside, to avoid venting issues and minimize installation costs. But the installation costs are significantly higher than replacing a tank with a tank. More plumbing, more electrical, more gas line work. And these units draw a lot of gas; many houses don’t have a beefy enough feed from outside, which has to be upgraded.

Right.

The reason I went tankless is because my wife has a big tub, which she doesn’t use often, but when she does use it, she’ll often fill it twice before quitting. The 2BR (3-shower) house had two 50-gal tanks, though only one was working when we bought. I’d have had to get a minimum 80 gallon tank, or replace the two 50’s, neither of which I wanted to do.

No, you’re thinking of power. And something can use more power, but still use less energy, because power is energy per unit time. Ideally, you use the same amount of energy to heat the same volume of water to the same temperature. That’s pretty much the definition of energy. The difference, as I understand it, is that with a tank, you heat up a bunch of water and keep it on standby, occasionally heating it more as it cools, while with a tankless, you heat up only the water you need, when you need it. There’s probably more to it, but I’m no expert.

No kidding, but that can drive the price up considerably, and make it more difficult to recoup your initial outlay in a reasonable amount of time.

The running costs of a large electric tank heater can be reduced considerably by using a water heater timer. I went for about eight years with the tank powered for four hours a day (5:30-7:30, AM and PM) and never once wanted for hot water. I live alone, however, and I would switch the override feature on a few times a week for laundry and the dishwasher. Timers can take advantage of water’s high specific heat capacity.

That’s why we waited until there was a tax rebate on energy upgrades. We recovered a large chunk of the $3500 it cost us to install; enough to where we’ll recoup what it actually cost us in about six years or so. We did the same thing with the heat pump we had installed and the new insulation in the basement. Amazing what you can save if you do your homework.

The difficult to install part is another big issue. If my water heater dies I can run to the hardware store, buy a new one get it home, into my basement and installed all within 3 hours or so. Electric or Gas, I can do either on my own, no big deal. I’ll need help getting the old one out of the basement, but I’ll have hot water before I need to take a shower tomorrow morning.

A tankless water heater (assuming it’s gas) needs a, what, 6 inch hole drilled in the sill, it has to be mounted on my poured concrete basement wall (that I can do) and there’s going to be code work involved that’s going to dictate where the exhaust can be relative to any other intakes around the house as well as any windows. Also, the gas line isn’t going to be a few inches away it’s going to be many feet and several elbows away and possible further if it needs to be sized up (that’s a different story then just changing the length or one or two pipes).

To make a long story short on top of the cost of the actual unit, I can replace a tank style heater myself, but a tankless heater will need, at the very least a handy man and should probably be done by a licensed plumber due to the amount of code work. Oh, and add in the cost of the permit that I wouldn’t pull if I was just dropping in a new tank on a Sunday afternoon.

I have a tankless and I love it but I know that Tank Hot water heaters are much cheaper also when I lost power for two weeks from Hurricane Sandy I had no hot water whereas all my neighbors still had theirs.

Still, I have no regrets and love my hot water heater.

ETA: regarding the cost, I got my heater (and furnace for that matter) through a government program that gave me a no interest loan. If I was paying out of pocket I would have probably had to go with a tank.

No, I mean, I know it pulls more power, I’m thinking that the power transfer should be less efficient = more overall energy usage (aka more energy out the chimney) - Kind of like, if you cook over a bonfire vs on a stove.

In our house, the gas line isn’t large enough to run the on-demand heater well enough, and we’d have had to run a 220 volt line to where the water heater was (or would be) if we wanted electric.

It was far cheaper overall and just as effective to just move up from a 40 to a 50 gallon tank heater and forget about it for another 10-15 years.

Hmm. Interesting discussion.

In NZ electricity is supplied in two flavours - regular and ripple control. Electric water heating cylinders are connected to the ripple control feed. The price is cheaper but the supply is controlled into off-peak times. Also if there is an electricity crisis (we have a lot of hydro but droughts can occur) then water heating is the first supply to be reduced.

Its been that way forever and works well - if you run out of hot water its because you have teenagers. :smiley:

Gas is used in some homes but mainly for cooking rather than hot water.

The instant water heaters (both gas and electric) have been around for a long time but are expensive to run and not popular in homes. Flats and apartments maybe.

As an aside, quite a few years ago when at university in Dunedin I visited friends living in an old house. Reticulated coal gas was common for cooking and heating in those days.

The house had a dragon unbeknownst to me. I washed my hands in a basin, turning on the hot tap, when there was a soft pop and then in front of my face a blast of blue flame. Dang! It was a gas water heater and obviously safety wasn’t a big thing in the 1900s.

The actual problem is an economic problem. I’m not sure if it qualifies as “tragedy of the commons” or another paradox.

Builders don’t benefit from tankless heaters, because they cost more to install. Since sale prices for a house with a tankless will not rise proportionally (sale price is a function of square footage, how it looks, and of course location), the builder gets no benefit.

Once the house is built, a long-term homeowner would benefit from a tankless - except that it’s very expensive to upgrade the wiring or the gas lines after the fact.

Anyone who is renting similarly won’t benefit - the higher cost of the house/apartment will mean the rent has to be higher, and most renters pay their own utilities. Thus, it is beneficial to the landlord to install the cheapest, least efficient appliances available.

Long story short, the only nationwide fix requires government intervention. The government has to say “minimum water heating efficiency is <x>”, and to raise the standards year after year. Eventually, only tanked heaters with ridiculously thick insulation or tankless would meet the standards.

Obviously, the government is no panacea either. Politics means that the government can only enact a limited number of unpopular measures. It costs political “currency” to do something unpopular, and there are more cost-effective things to spend that currency on. For instance, rather than requiring tankless water heaters, which only provide a 30% benefit, the government is trying to make us all go to compact fluorescent/LED lighting, which is more like a 500% benefit in energy consumption. And you’ve seen all the howling that has caused.

The other fix is “green building standards”. People may pay more for homes that have been certified to be hugely more energy efficient, which requires a bunch of changes and upgrades.

This similar paradox, I think, applies to a raft of home-building technologies that cost more up front but probably save money in the long run. Everything from roofing nails that don’t rip loose in a hurricane (cost a few pennies more but may save your roof…eventually) to using higher strength materials than wood/brick for the siding to the high end foam insulation is subject to the same paradox.

To add insult to injury, some of the measures that prevent catastrophic damage will actually raise your insurance rates because it increases the base cost of the house. If you design your house to be able to survive a flood, you flood insurance won’t be cheaper, usually. Similar to that tornado-resistant roofing and other countermeasures.

Very well thought out and expressed. My compliments.

I am eco minded and often think about the best long term choice. In my humble opinion we live on the cusp of revolutionary changes for the way we use energy. Unfortunately the tipping point for when technologically efficient energy becomes the easiest choice is still some years away.

The time will come when many appliances have their own energy storage and houses will be largely self sufficient. Not in every climate or location but certainly across the band between the Tropics, possibly as far as the 45 degree latitudes.

This obviously isn’t always true. I have friends who recently agreed to buy a house under construction. One attraction was the opportunity to specify some of the construction details. And a tankless heater was one of their choices.

I have a tank-type heater. By adding insulation and restricting the hours it’s on, I’ve cut the power it consumes substantially. Based on the up-front costs and the projected savings, I’d be crazy to go for a tankless model.

As was pointed out, a well insulated tank heater can be more efficient-you use the power when it is cheap, and you also store the hot water with little loss. I can see a super insulated tank heater is actually better.

My BIL sells heating/air conditioning. I asked him if we should put in tankless water heaters in the new home we’re building, and he said, “Not unless you want to schedule when you do laundry or dishes.”

'Nuff said.

It’s easier to schedule such if you have a very small household. I can’t see a family with multiple children depending on one.

  1. Gas not available at our house. (didn’t know you could get electric tankless)
  2. We lose power a couple of times of year. Our tank keeps water hot enough for showers for at least 36 hours.

I want one, but I can’t have one since we don’t have the proper venting to support a tankless.