# Why are physicians in the UK called "Doctor" when they aren't? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 2, 2008, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-physicians-in-the-uk-called-doctor-when-they-arent/466230 "2008-10-02T20:53:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-physicians-in-the-uk-called-doctor-when-they-arent/466230/21 "2008-10-03T11:12:08Z")
> [@Szlater](#): > > The majority of people that would be Profs in the US are called “Readers”, aren’t they? What I meant was that many lecturers here would be ‘professor’ in an equivalent American role. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-physicians-in-the-uk-called-doctor-when-they-arent/466230/22 "2008-10-03T11:30:33Z")
> [@bouv](#): > > Wait…to be a doctor in the UK, you only need to go to school for four years? Or do the bachelors degrees take longer? (Although I guess if you need one in medicine and one in surgery, it could take eight years?) Careful there, do not assume that because two degrees have the same name or get translated as equivalent they also have the same requirements. My Spanish Ingeniero Quimico Superior gets translated as a BS in Chem Eng. Requirements: 5 years of class and labwork (30h/wk), followed by a thesis which usually takes 2 more years. A Spanish medico is also not an academic “doctor.” Requirement for the Licenciatura en Medicina: 6 years of class and labwork (thereabouts of 30h/wk). Requirements to practice with temp jobs or as a “factory doctor”: the Licenciatura. Requirements to work non-temp jobs or to have any specialty (including surgical ones): the Licenciatura, followed by an entrance exam which on average takes three years to pass (MIR, medico interno residente), followed by 3-5 years of residence depending on specialty. ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-physicians-in-the-uk-called-doctor-when-they-arent/466230/23 "2008-10-03T12:17:10Z")
Perhaps as a doctor in the UK\* I can clear this up? There have been some changes to the post-graduate training recently, so it’s confusing. Medical school in the UK is 5 years straight out of high school, 6 if you do an intercalated BSc (one year of research in a medical field and a thesis, essentially). After those 5 years you’ll get a MBBS or an MB, BCh or equivalent. Some universities have enough Obs and Gynae in their course that one can get a BAO (Bachelor in the Art of Obstetrics) too. At graduation one is officially a medical doctor. You then register with the GMC (the General Medical Council, our professional body) for a year of provisional registration as a Foundation year 1 doctor (F1). This used to be the old pre-registration or Junior House Officer year, when one lived in the hospital and worked liked a dog. The hours are reduced, the work is no better and it is split between medical and surgical hospital based specialties. Think Intern, but 4 months Surgery, 4 months Medicine, 4 months Geriatrics or something similar. Then, if you have completed the year satisfactorily you progress to Foundation Year 2- again split between various hospital based specialties and sub-specialties, with the option of doing 4 months in general practice. So the year might be 4 months General medicine, 4 months psych, 4 months Paediatrics.These two years are designed to give everyone as a broad a generic skillset as possible. Every year you re-register with the GMC (and pay about £400 for the privelege), only doctor on the register can work legally as doctors and prescribe medications. Doctors who do bad things, like say, Harold Shipman, have their names “erased from the register” and lose those rights. Midway through FY2 you apply for and interview for the specilaty training programmes- these are for 2 years of Core medical, surgical and psychiatry training (after which you re apply for the subspecialties within each specialty), or for one of the 3 year run-through programmes in Obs and Gynae, GP, Emergency Medicine, Anaesthetics or Paeds. Thus your next few years placements will depend on exactly which branch of medicine you have chosen to specialise in, and whether you get into a programme or not. If you DON’T get into a training scheme, you’ll have the option of either working a year long contract in an area not necessarily of your choice, or of doing locum hospital work. As you move up the ladder, the competition gets stiffer and the places get fewer and fewer. So, say in Scotland their may be 150 CT1 and 2 posts in surgery, but only 100 CT3 posts and only 1 or 2 Consultant posts open every year. During your 3 or 4 years in a specialty training scheme you are expected to take membership exams, such as the MRCP (Membership Royal College medicine), MRCS (…Surgeons), MRCOG(…Obstetricians and Gynaecologists), MRCGP (…General Practitioners). These exams are HARD, many people have to re-sit 2 or 3 times to pass. Once you have completed these exams one gets a Certificate of Completion of Training, a CCT. At this point you are eligible to get a Consultant position (if in hospital medicine) or to work as an independent GP (if in GP). So, for example, before you can be a GP you’d have to do 5 years in medical school, 1 year as an F1, 1 year as an F2, 3 years as a GP trainee and sit a lot of exams along the way. 10 years total, at which time you’d be MB BCh BAO MRCGP and probably a few more letters after your name. The surgeons technically drop the Dr for Mr only when they have completed their MRCS. As a consultant youcan do further exams to become a Fellow of the College of your choice, and then swap MRCP for FRCP after your name, for example. Along the way you can take any number of courses and minor exams e.g. ALS, ATLS, APLS (for resuscitation skills), Diplomas in psychiatry, child health, family planning etc, etc. I’m quite happy to answer any questions, because I’m sure that my answer was probably just more confusing for most people. - As graduate of an Irish university I actually did 6 years as an undergraduate with the first year being basic sciences. Most Irish medical schools now have done away with that and just do 5 years. My university also gives out BAs like they are candy, so I have one of them too. I’m currently in my 1st year of GP specialist training, and have done the Diploma of the RCOG (an easier exam than the MRCOG, aimed at GPs), so I am Dr irishgirl MB BCh BAO BA DRCOG, GPST1 trainee. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-physicians-in-the-uk-called-doctor-when-they-arent/466230/24 "2008-10-03T12:33:07Z")
[QUOTE=Paul in Saudi] Well, you can’t call an entry-level British medico “Mister.” Only surgeons are called mister. [/QUOTE] > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You spent heaps of time in med school so you can be called Doctor, and then spend some more there to be called Mister. It’s very strange. Beyond strange, I’d call it bizarre. Can someone please explain this demotion to me? What of a man who chose to be the manager at a food store instead of going to medical school. He too would be called “mister”, no? How does the surgeon feel about this? ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-physicians-in-the-uk-called-doctor-when-they-arent/466230/25 "2008-10-03T12:59:33Z")
Surgeons here _like_ being called Mr/Ms/Miss (don’t call one Mrs, even if you know she’s married, that’s not her professional title). They can get really annoyed if you call them Dr. It’s not about having a degree it’s about BEING A SURGEON. You have to be Type A to the max, with confidence out your ears to cut people up on a regular basis, and these guys want you to know that they aren’t just doctors, they’re SURGEONS. They more or less assume you’ll know that they have a degree just by looking at them. Surgeons rarely describe themselves as doctors anyway, they are surgeons foremost and won’t ever let you forget it! ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-physicians-in-the-uk-called-doctor-when-they-arent/466230/26 "2008-10-03T13:15:39Z")
> [@irishgirl](#): > > Surgeons here _like_ being called Mr/Ms/Miss (don’t call one Mrs, even if you know she’s married, that’s not her professional title). I will dispute that. I know, and have known surgeons who have used “Mrs” as their professional, “patient-facing” title. ---
**Author:** ![grey\_ideas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/dfb087/32.png) [@grey\_ideas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grey_ideas)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-physicians-in-the-uk-called-doctor-when-they-arent/466230/27 "2008-10-03T13:20:17Z")
> [@irishgirl](#): > > Surgeons here _like_ being called Mr/Ms/Miss (don’t call one Mrs, even if you know she’s married, that’s not her professional title). > They can get really annoyed if you call them Dr. > > It’s not about having a degree it’s about BEING A SURGEON. > You have to be Type A to the max, with confidence out your ears to cut people up on a regular basis, and these guys want you to know that they aren’t just doctors, they’re SURGEONS. > > They more or less assume you’ll know that they have a degree just by looking at them. Surgeons rarely describe themselves as doctors anyway, they are surgeons foremost and won’t ever let you forget it! My parents next door neighbour (who has a PhD) went in for surgery and the surgeon kept insisting on calling him “Mr” so he responded by calling the surgeon “Dr”. The surgeon commented on the fact that he should be called “Mr” to which my parents neighbour said “when you get my title right, I’ll get yours right”. The continuing battle between the science and medical community! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-physicians-in-the-uk-called-doctor-when-they-arent/466230/28 "2008-10-03T13:32:01Z")
Wow. Mrs…is just weird as a professional title. Any female surgeons I know get Ms and would chew the ear off anyone who called them Mrs. It just sounds so…unprofessional. Maternal and matronly rather than “I will now cut you open with cold steel”, you know? Still, I suppose they get to choose. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-physicians-in-the-uk-called-doctor-when-they-arent/466230/29 "2008-10-03T14:30:40Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > Re 2: I thought a Master’s was the first degree. But the terms master and doctor were interchangeable at first, weren’t they? > > Re 3: Do you mean a member of the medical profession or any professional? I’ve never heard lawyers or architects called doctor. Nor ministers, unless they have a doctorate. I’m speaking historically, of course. Now, we’ve narrowed down the usage just to physicians. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-physicians-in-the-uk-called-doctor-when-they-arent/466230/30 "2008-10-03T16:27:42Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > Re 2: I’ve never heard lawyers or architects called doctor. Nor ministers, unless they have a doctorate. I was quite surprised to be called “Doctor” when I traveled in Hungary a few years back (I’m a lawyer). It’s the way they do it there, and, I’ve heard, in parts of Latin America. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-physicians-in-the-uk-called-doctor-when-they-arent/466230/31 "2008-10-03T17:50:20Z")
So was “doctor” traditionally a term or an address for _all_ professionals? How did it get restricted to physicians? ---
**Author:** ![grey\_ideas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/dfb087/32.png) [@grey\_ideas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grey_ideas)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-physicians-in-the-uk-called-doctor-when-they-arent/466230/32 "2008-10-03T19:02:37Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > So was “doctor” traditionally a term or an address for _all_ professionals? How did it get restricted to physicians? I think it’s more that calling PhD’s “doctor” seems to have fallen out of favour in the US, it’s reasonably common to call PhD’s “doctor” elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Have\_Hippos\_In\_My\_Garden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/4491bb/32.png) [@I\_Have\_Hippos\_In\_My\_Garden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Have_Hippos_In_My_Garden)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-physicians-in-the-uk-called-doctor-when-they-arent/466230/33 "2008-10-03T19:38:32Z")
> [@](#): > > so I am Dr irishgirl MB BCh BAO BA DRCOG, GPST1 trainee. Blimey. And I’m just hippos BSc. How often do you write that all in out in full?! ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-physicians-in-the-uk-called-doctor-when-they-arent/466230/34 "2008-10-03T19:59:23Z")
> [@](#): > > And, of course, many people who would be called ‘Professor’ in America do not have the same title in Britain, it only applying to the more senior university positions. It’s a little more complicated than that… Anyone who stands up in front of a classroom is likely to be addressed as “Professor So-and-so”, but it’s usually incorrect to say “So-and-so is a professor” (at least, in a formal context). Most “professors” are adjunct professors, associate professors, or assistant professors. A full professor (distinguished from the others by having tenure) is one who has made notable contributions to their field, and usually has a fair bit of seniority. I think that American full professors are still more common than European professors, though. ---
**Author:** ![bouv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@bouv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bouv)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-physicians-in-the-uk-called-doctor-when-they-arent/466230/35 "2008-10-03T20:11:22Z")
Thanks to those who cleared up the time issue. So it seems that it probably is about equal to the US system, just set up a little differently. And re: Mr/Miss…what do you call just a normal person on the street? Is your neighbor Mr.[lastname] too, even if he’s not a surgeon? ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-physicians-in-the-uk-called-doctor-when-they-arent/466230/36 "2008-10-03T20:18:42Z")
> [@bouv](#): > > Is your neighbor Mr.[lastname] too, even if he’s not a surgeon? Yes. The following titles are used for adults (unless modified by rank, qualification or honour): Mister, Missus and Ms. For kids: Master and Miss. I didn’t get rid of the “Master _Szlater_” on my hospital notes til I was 28… much to my annoyance. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-physicians-in-the-uk-called-doctor-when-they-arent/466230/37 "2008-10-03T21:04:56Z")
For lawyers, in the UK, its a split profession; Barristers and Solistors. Barristers are either called Barrister So and So or Mr So and So Bar at Law, or if they are senior Barristers, Mr So and So QC! ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-physicians-in-the-uk-called-doctor-when-they-arent/466230/38 "2008-10-03T21:14:42Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > It’s a little more complicated than that… Anyone who stands up in front of a classroom is likely to be addressed as “Professor So-and-so”, but it’s usually incorrect to say “So-and-so is a professor” (at least, in a formal context). Most “professors” are adjunct professors, associate professors, or assistant professors. A full professor (distinguished from the others by having tenure) is one who has made notable contributions to their field, and usually has a fair bit of seniority. I think that American full professors are still more common than European professors, though. Community colleges (which tend to have both academic and vocational programs) usually use the same academic rank system for all of their instructors. Thus it’s entirely possible for a culinary arts or automotive technology instructer to be called “Professor”. ---
**Author:** ![Billdo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/billdo/32/315_2.png) [@Billdo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billdo)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-physicians-in-the-uk-called-doctor-when-they-arent/466230/39 "2008-10-03T21:27:09Z")
> [@Randy\_Seltzer](#): > > I’d point out that lawyers in the US get a J.D. . . . . Of course, as you point out, both the J.D. and the M.D. are not doctorates but professional degrees . . . Actually, the traditional law school degree in the U.S. is the LL.B. (Bachelor of Laws), which continued to be the degree granted from a three year professional law program after almost all schools required an undergraduate bachelors prior to law school admission. Maybe 50 years ago some smart lawyer figured out that you would be paid more by the federal government if you had a doctoral degree than just a bachelors or two, and the law schools were convinced to start awarding the J.D. degree rather than the LL.B. Professionally, lawyers continued to be addressed as Mr./Miss/Mrs./Ms., whether they had been awarded the LL.B. or J.D., unless they were otherwise qualified to be referred to as Doctor (i.e. we had some physicians in my law school class, and there was one Ph.D. faculty member, a pretentious fuck, who really liked to be called Doctor rather than professor). Note that there are graduate law degrees, the LL.M. (master of laws), which is a typically one year program taken after the award of a J.D., and the S.J.D. or J.S.D.(doctor of juridical science), which is a research degree the equivalent of a Ph.D. The degree LL.D. (doctor of laws) is almost exclusive given as an honorary degree in the U.S., though it is an academic degree granted elsewhere in the world. ---
**Author:** ![bouv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@bouv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bouv)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-physicians-in-the-uk-called-doctor-when-they-arent/466230/40 "2008-10-03T21:28:00Z")
> [@Szlater](#): > > Yes. > > The following titles are used for adults (unless modified by rank, qualification or honour): Mister, Missus and Ms. So surgeons get all up in arms when they aren’t called the same thing as everyone else? I can either go to school for several years, and several more in training at a hospital, for the right to be called Mister. Or…I can do nothing but just not be a child and get the same thing? 😕 Why _wouldn’t_ they want a separate title (like doctor) that recognizes their hard work and dedication? I understand that, especially in the UK, there’s a large divide between surgeons and internal medicine doctors (though not as much as they’re used to be,) stemming from way back when when surgeons doubled as barbers and such, and (unless I’m mistaken) did nothing more than bloodletting, laying on leeches, and other things that really weren’t on par with real doctors, but that’s long past. Just seems odd to me, is all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-physicians-in-the-uk-called-doctor-when-they-arent/466230.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-physicians-in-the-uk-called-doctor-when-they-arent/466230.md?page=3)