# Why are physicians in the UK called "Doctor" when they aren't? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 2, 2008, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-physicians-in-the-uk-called-doctor-when-they-arent/466230 "2008-10-02T20:53:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-physicians-in-the-uk-called-doctor-when-they-arent/466230/41 "2008-10-03T21:29:16Z")
**I Have Hippos In My Garden** I don’t really have to write that. I’m either Dr irishgirl or Mrs irishgirl depending on the situation. If I were to write a letter to the editor of The Lancet or The BMJ I suppose I’d put all of that in, otherwise, I can’t think of a reason when I’d need to. **bouv** _Anything_ which makes surgeons different from other doctors and thus special would be seen as a positive in the eyes of most surgeons- did I mention they tend to have quite big egos? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-physicians-in-the-uk-called-doctor-when-they-arent/466230/42 "2008-10-03T21:31:05Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > It’s a little more complicated than that… Anyone who stands up in front of a classroom is likely to be addressed as “Professor So-and-so”… This ties in with the more deferential nature of the forms of address in American higher education than in Britain. From day one at uni, my professors and lecturers were David, Geoff, Julie, etc. An American friend who did postgraduate study at the same place has told me how weird she found this, and how difficult she found it to adjust. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-physicians-in-the-uk-called-doctor-when-they-arent/466230/43 "2008-10-03T21:45:28Z")
> [@bouv](#): > > So surgeons get all up in arms when they aren’t called the same thing as everyone else? I can either go to school for several years, and several more in training at a hospital, for the right to be called Mister. Or…I can do nothing but just not be a child and get the same thing? 😕 I think you’re kind of missing the point - to reach the status of “Mr/Ms/Miss” in the UK medical world is to have gone around the clock, no longer having the need of a petty honorific such as “Doctor” ;). They could probably have plumped for being called “Doctor Imperator Greatorix” or something, but the profession settled on something a bit more subtle. Of course, the eminent surgeon Mr John Smith aspires to be his even more eminent colleague and namesake Sir John Smith, who in turn aspires to be Lord Smith of Fallopia. ---
**Author:** ![Caractacus\_Pott](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@Caractacus\_Pott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caractacus_Pott)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-physicians-in-the-uk-called-doctor-when-they-arent/466230/44 "2008-10-03T21:53:08Z")
> [@irishgirl](#): > > Surgeons here _like_ being called Mr/Ms/Miss (don’t call one Mrs, even if you know she’s married, that’s not her professional title). > They can get really annoyed if you call them Dr. > > It’s not about having a degree it’s about BEING A SURGEON. > You have to be Type A to the max, with confidence out your ears to cut people up on a regular basis, and these guys want you to know that they aren’t just doctors, they’re SURGEONS. > > They more or less assume you’ll know that they have a degree just by looking at them. Surgeons rarely describe themselves as doctors anyway, they are surgeons foremost and won’t ever let you forget it! Huh. During the pre-op visit to my bed, I asked the surgeon who took out my wisdom tooth why he was called “Mister.” He said Henry VIII made the distinction. I lost interest in the story after that so I can’t tell you ol’ Hank’s rationale. He, the surgeon, seemed pretty sincere so I don’t think he was pulling my leg. For how much I paid, he should have come up with a much more interesting story, preferably including swordplay, cuckolding, and explosions. So, **irishgirl** , if I, an American, called one of your colleagues “doctor” instead of “Miss,” would you think they’d take offense? Or offence? In my field I conceivably run into them professionally but, knowing the airhead I can be, I’d slip and make this mistake. I’m still getting accustomed to calling nurses “sisters.” ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2008, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-physicians-in-the-uk-called-doctor-when-they-arent/466230/45 "2008-10-04T20:11:06Z")
A fair amount of patients don’t understand the distinction or mix it up and call the medics Mr and the surgeons Dr. No one minds, you might be gently corrected and that will be the end of it. They minds when people who should know better (nurses, other doctors) mess up. ---
**Author:** ![Caractacus\_Pott](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@Caractacus\_Pott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caractacus_Pott)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2008, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-physicians-in-the-uk-called-doctor-when-they-arent/466230/46 "2008-10-04T20:20:52Z")
Thanks. One less thing to worry about. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2008, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-physicians-in-the-uk-called-doctor-when-they-arent/466230/47 "2008-10-04T21:26:59Z")
> [@Caractacus\_Pott](#): > > …I’m still getting accustomed to calling nurses “sisters.” What do they call male nurses on that side of the pond?😕 ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2008, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-physicians-in-the-uk-called-doctor-when-they-arent/466230/48 "2008-10-04T22:21:52Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > What do they call male nurses on that side of the pond?😕 “Charge Nurse”, if they’re the nurse-in-charge on a ward, the female nurse-in-charge is called “Sister”. Otherwise, male nurses are just nurses, and more often than not addressed by firstname, like their female colleagues. Used to be that they were “Nurse [surname]” but I don’t recall doing that for anyone other than ward sisters (in which case they are often “Sister [firstname or surname]”) since the early-80s. Back then, ofcourse, they wore the cool uniforms with capes and frilly hats. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2008, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-physicians-in-the-uk-called-doctor-when-they-arent/466230/49 "2008-10-04T22:24:34Z")
> [@Szlater](#): > > For kids: Master and Miss. > > I didn’t get rid of the “Master _Szlater_” on my hospital notes til I was 28… much to my annoyance. Really? In the US “Master” is only used in addressing wedding invitations, and rarely there anymore. And when will someone tell me about professionals other than physicians being called doctors? I saw in Wikipedia (but I forget which article) that lawyers used to be called “civic doctors,” but what about other professions? And when and why did physicians and attorneys in England (and initially the US) get downgraded to undergraduates academically? ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2008, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-physicians-in-the-uk-called-doctor-when-they-arent/466230/50 "2008-10-04T22:29:03Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > Really? In the US “Master” is only used in addressing wedding invitations, and rarely there anymore. All the paediatric notes where I work have “Master so-and-so” and “Miss so-and-so” on them. They’re supposed to switch them to Mr and Ms at around 18, but it doesn’t always happen (as was the case for me). ---
**Author:** ![grey\_ideas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/dfb087/32.png) [@grey\_ideas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grey_ideas)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2008, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-physicians-in-the-uk-called-doctor-when-they-arent/466230/51 "2008-10-04T22:59:15Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > And when and why did physicians and attorneys in England (and initially the US) get downgraded to undergraduates academically? I don’t know the official reason, but I would suspect it’s due to the academic distinction between a PhD and an undergraduate degree. A PhD has no taught element, everything is on your thesis and viva whereas undergraduate degree is a taught degree with written exams at the end. In this respect the way that medicine is taught fits in better as an undergraduate degree(s) than as a PhD. If you’re sitting in a classroom being taught about your subject then you aren’t doing a PhD 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2008, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-physicians-in-the-uk-called-doctor-when-they-arent/466230/52 "2008-10-04T23:18:57Z")
I’m pretty sure that in the US all PhD programs have a taught component _in addition to_ the research component and thesis. Anyway, based on this thread and lots or wikipedia reading, my sense is that “doctor” as a term for a physician and “doctor” as a person holding an academic degree are more-or-less independent developments. It appears that “doctor” originally meant “smart guy with an education” (it literally means “teacher” of course") and could be used of anyone who fit the description without regard to academic qualifications (which were both rare and non-standardized in those days). When universities started to distinguish their higher degrees with the word “doctor” they were awarded to people who would already be called “doctors” in the common parlance (though I suspect that such usage was already outdated or obsolete in English except for physicians). They later applied the term to professional and research degrees such as the MD and PhD. So “doctor” as a common noun became more and more limited in scope (focusing on medical professionals) even before “doctor” as an academic title became widely used for anyone who had completed a high-level post-graduate degree in whatever field (including, but not exclusively, medicine). Can anyone confirm or refute this? ---
**Author:** ![TheLoadedDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheLoadedDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLoadedDog)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-physicians-in-the-uk-called-doctor-when-they-arent/466230/53 "2008-10-05T01:32:35Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > Really? In the US “Master” is only used in addressing wedding invitations, and rarely there anymore. > > And when will someone tell me about professionals other than physicians being called doctors? I saw in Wikipedia (but I forget which article) that lawyers used to be called “civic doctors,” but what about other professions? And when and why did physicians and attorneys in England (and initially the US) get downgraded to undergraduates academically? You rarely see it in Australia these days, but back when it was more common, it wasn’t merely used for wedding invitations - although kids don’t get a lot of formal mail, so it might have seemed that way. My wonderfully dotty, slightly snooty old aunties (I’m a child of somewhat older parents, so it’s generational maybe - dad was born in the 1920s) would always write _Master_ on my birthday and Christmas cards. I’m a bit old-fashioned myself, and I really like the practice, so I have continued it with my four year-old nephew (his mum likes it too). ---
**Author:** ![grey\_ideas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/dfb087/32.png) [@grey\_ideas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grey_ideas)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-physicians-in-the-uk-called-doctor-when-they-arent/466230/54 "2008-10-05T12:32:29Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > I’m pretty sure that in the US all PhD programs have a taught component _in addition to_ the research component and thesis. I’ve heard this too in the US, but in my experience and in the UK, PhD’s do not have any taught aspects apart from if you want to go and attend things like thesis writing courses (pretty much a ‘how to’ course). The PhD is assessed on your thesis and the viva exam, there are no other credits you can use towards it. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-physicians-in-the-uk-called-doctor-when-they-arent/466230/55 "2008-10-05T20:22:21Z")
Quoth **GorillaMan** : > [@](#): > > This ties in with the more deferential nature of the forms of address in American higher education than in Britain. From day one at uni, my professors and lecturers were David, Geoff, Julie, etc. An American friend who did postgraduate study at the same place has told me how weird she found this, and how difficult she found it to adjust. For grad students, my (American) experience is that formality goes out the window. The only time when grad students aren’t on a complete first-name basis with the faculty is when you have several faculty members with the same first name. And there’s always a taught element in between the bachelor’s and the PhD, but it’s often part of the master’s degree. That is, a student takes some courses, and gets a bachelor’s degree. The student then takes some more courses, and gets a master’s degree. Then the student stops taking courses, does research (or other duties) full time, and gets the PhD. You do see some programs that go straight from the bachelor’s to the PhD without the master’s en route, and of course doctoral students will sometimes take a class just because it’s interesting, but it’s not generally necessary. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-physicians-in-the-uk-called-doctor-when-they-arent/466230/56 "2008-10-05T20:30:56Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > This ties in with the more deferential nature of the forms of address in American higher education than in Britain. From day one at uni, my professors and lecturers were David, Geoff, Julie, etc. An American friend who did postgraduate study at the same place has told me how weird she found this, and how difficult she found it to adjust. Just in case it wasn’t clear from this post, the first two sentences apply to undergraduate studies. ( **Chronos** - no intention to point fingers, I just think maybe my ambiguity has created some in your reply.) ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-physicians-in-the-uk-called-doctor-when-they-arent/466230/57 "2008-10-06T09:14:07Z")
> [@grey\_ideas](#): > > I’ve heard this too in the US, but in my experience and in the UK, PhD’s do not have any taught aspects apart from if you want to go and attend things like thesis writing courses (pretty much a ‘how to’ course). The PhD is assessed on your thesis and the viva exam, there are no other credits you can use towards it. The maths students here are required to take a few postgraduate maths courses in the first year of their PhD (and I think they need to pass them, otherwise they are thrown out). As a computer scientist, I have no such requirement. I don’t think that there’s any universal rules, regarding this. ---
**Author:** ![grey\_ideas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/dfb087/32.png) [@grey\_ideas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grey_ideas)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-physicians-in-the-uk-called-doctor-when-they-arent/466230/58 "2008-10-06T10:04:24Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > The maths students here are required to take a few postgraduate maths courses in the first year of their PhD (and I think they need to pass them, otherwise they are thrown out). As a computer scientist, I have no such requirement. I don’t think that there’s any universal rules, regarding this. Regarding the maths students, I think those are assessment type of studies rather than something that counts towards your PhD. You have to pass them to continue onwards, but passing them doesn’t help you to pass your PhD (ie. they don’t count as ‘credits’ or similar). …that’s what I’d guess anyway, but would be interesting to know for sure 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-physicians-in-the-uk-called-doctor-when-they-arent/466230/59 "2008-10-06T10:14:48Z")
> [@](#): > > _This ties in with the more deferential nature of the forms of address in American higher education than in Britain. From day one at uni, my professors and lecturers were David, Geoff, Julie, etc. An American friend who did postgraduate study at the same place has told me how weird she found this, and how difficult she found it to adjust._ My experience in the early '80s was that they were all “Mister So-and-so”. And they call us Mister, as well (first time anyone did) ‘Professors’ have only proliferated in recent years here, following the realisation that American academia will not take you seriously unless you are a Professor of Something-or-other ---
**Author:** ![grey\_ideas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/dfb087/32.png) [@grey\_ideas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grey_ideas)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-physicians-in-the-uk-called-doctor-when-they-arent/466230/60 "2008-10-06T10:21:20Z")
By the way, I don’t think anyone’s linked to it yet but there’s a reasonable section on Wikipedia about the use of ‘Doctor’ as a title; [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_(title)) _- usual terms and conditions on Wikipedia, not a primary source etc, etc_ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-physicians-in-the-uk-called-doctor-when-they-arent/466230.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-physicians-in-the-uk-called-doctor-when-they-arent/466230.md?page=4)