# Why are police issued machine guns? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 5, 2012, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-issued-machine-guns/643112 "2012-12-05T19:36:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Atakapa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a8b319/32.png) [@Atakapa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atakapa)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-issued-machine-guns/643112/21 "2012-12-05T21:44:35Z")
> [@Dallas\_Jones](#): > > “Capable” of automatic weapons fire does not mean they are automatic. Most civilian semi-auto weapons are ‘capable of’ being converted to full auto, with a few modifications. > > Your cites show nothing to support your claims that civilian police departments have full auto guns. Indead they say the oposite. The M-16 by its very nature is fully automatic. If it was semiautomatic, it would be called an AR-15. > [@](#): > > I am bowing out of this latest anti-gun screed. Your OP leads me to believe that you are yet another non-US person posting from ignorance. Nope, try again. Born and currently living in the American South, competitive handgun shooter, own seven firearms (at least), and currently applying for a job with the local PD and Sheriff’s Department. I don’t see any “anti-gun screed” anywhere; just a question as to why LEOs are given devices that seem ill-suited for the environment and conditions they’ll be used in. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-issued-machine-guns/643112/22 "2012-12-05T22:07:45Z")
LE has had full-auto since the days of the Thompson smg, at least. As I’ve related in other threads, the small town PD where I grew up had quite an arsenal. I know, I cleaned it. In the early 80’s they had a Reising, a Thompson, and an M-16 (early one, not an M-16A1) among other things. Other departments in the region had similar arsenals; a couple of them apparently even had BAR’s in their inventories. Some of it came to them after WWII from the feds. That was coal country, so some of the older stuff was purchased with the idea of quashing labor unrest back in the 20’s and 30’s. Some of it, like the M-16, was just purchased by chiefs who, depending on your POV, were either forward thinking or grossly overestimating their needs. I’m not convinced that these toys are all that more prevalent in police armories today. I think they may just actually have it out in public where we see it more often. Back when I was cleaning those guns, many of them hadn’t been out of the station in decades. ---
**Author:** ![ducati](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/cc9497/32.png) [@ducati](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ducati)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-issued-machine-guns/643112/23 "2012-12-05T22:59:19Z")
Patrol officers rarely need fully automatic weapons. As a former cop and firearms instructor for 20+ years, I only know of about 6 agencies - out of hundreds -that issue FA weapons. The main reason is the training needed for proficiency. SWAT or HRT units are different. Their role requires something a bit more stout at times, and they train accordingly. As mentioned above, the BoA shootout in Hollywood pointed out weaknesses in many jurisdictions regarding patrol weapons, so in addition to the standard 12 gauge shotgun, many agencies also issue or allow an AR-15, Mini-14, or AR-10. As a member of a fugitive squad, I carried an HK-53 because of its size and capacity. A very few larger agencies field an armored vehicle to approach and engage heavily armed or barricaded subjects. My county uses an[M114](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLMq6ldwr1E), while nearby Cobb county uses a[LAV 300.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MmkKR_uHVY) Neither mounts a machine gun, but either can be used as a sniper platform. The guys who build these here in the ATL area are buddies of mine. > [@magnusblitz](#): > > I was on a BART train (SF Bay Area’s light rail system) once that got stopped a station for a quick run-through by cops who were looking for someone. One of the cops (not sure if it was BART police or local police) had a belt-fed machine gun with the belt lapped around his neck like a bandolier. Utterly baffling. While I love the idea of fleeing felons meeting the pointy end of an M-249, I can’t imaging a BART officer carrying one for any reason. Perhaps you saw a training exercise - or a real chase -with the SWAT team, or something similar. Baffling, I agree with. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-issued-machine-guns/643112/24 "2012-12-06T00:44:10Z")
Every police agency I have seen in my area (Cincinnati) has their cruisers/cops armed with their sidearm, a riot shotgun and an AR-15. Who knows what else lurks in that gigantic trunk of that Crown Vic. Jimmy Hoffa? ---
**Author:** ![TSBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@TSBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TSBG)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-issued-machine-guns/643112/25 "2012-12-06T01:16:16Z")
> [@Atakapa](#): > > […] own seven firearms (at least) […] Your first job in law enforcement will be to accurately count your guns! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-issued-machine-guns/643112/26 "2012-12-06T01:51:50Z")
In some less action packed jurisdictions, the patrol officers are also SWAT and may have a trunk full of goodies for that once or twice per year the SWAT call goes out, then they stop writing tickets and drive over to where the SWATting needs doing. > [@Dallas\_Jones](#): > > “Capable” of automatic weapons fire does not mean they are automatic. Most civilian semi-auto weapons are ‘capable of’ being converted to full auto, with a few modifications. > > Your cites show nothing to support your claims that civilian police departments have full auto guns. Indead they say the oposite. > > Yes, police departments can buy used government guns. No they don’t just get the full auto versions. Full auto is very tightly regulated and the average police department does not qualify. Full auto could not even be licenced to a ‘department’ but must be registered to the individual. > > There may be exceptions for agencies such as the BATF, FBI and Secret Service, as departments. But not for the individuals. > > I am bowing out of this latest anti-gun screed. Your OP leads me to believe that you are yet another non-US person posting from ignorance. Wow, the story that said they received M-16s “capable” of full auto couldn’t be more clear. One police department even wished they hadn’t gotten full auto for liability purposes but they get them free and the semi auto civilian version is $1000 so, whaddyagonnado? One officer in another town did a semi auto conversion on one. It talks about oversight of the full auto program. That’s all in the story. On the sidebar it mentions police in Fort Wayne who are not qualified for full auto can buy and carry their own semi auto rifle. _Directly above the story is a video of a police chief talking about the full auto m-16s they received through the DoD program._ ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-issued-machine-guns/643112/27 "2012-12-06T04:49:27Z")
When I was in Paris in late 1985, I was amazed to see so many _gendarmes_ with machine guns. But unless there’s a hostage situation or some other crisis underway, it’s still rare to see cops with them in American cities. > [@Doctor\_Who](#): > > …And the [North Hollywood Shootout](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout) is commonly pointed to as the reason police agencies have escalated their weaponry. The FBI’s 1986 Miami shootout also caused a reassessment: [1986 FBI Miami shootout - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout) ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-issued-machine-guns/643112/28 "2012-12-06T04:57:48Z")
I can only state what my department has. I can not pretend to be an expert on what everyone has. Most of our officers carry a .45 pistol and a shotgun in the car. That’s it. Those officers in the ESU team also have M16s. They are military surplus that have been converted to only semi-auto. They also have fully auto sub machine guns (9mm). ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-issued-machine-guns/643112/29 "2012-12-06T05:45:16Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > When I was in Paris in late 1985, I was amazed to see so many _gendarmes_ with machine guns. Gendarmes are not police, though. They’re a [gendarmerie](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gendarmerie) - a paramilitary force charged with policing duties. It’s concept that doesn’t exist in the U.S., which is probably why you find ordinary police departments with military-style equipment. ---
**Author:** ![JLRogers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ce73a5/32.png) [@JLRogers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JLRogers)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-issued-machine-guns/643112/30 "2012-12-06T05:48:18Z")
> [@Dallas\_Jones](#): > > Full auto is very tightly regulated and the average police department does not qualify. Full auto could not even be licenced to a ‘department’ but must be registered to the individual. This is entirely counterfactual. Law enforcement agencies, including all police departments, are exempt from some of the restrictions of the National Firearms Act and the Firearm Owners Protection Act. A fully automatic weapon can indeed be registered to a police department. ---
**Author:** ![Patch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a183cd/32.png) [@Patch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patch)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-issued-machine-guns/643112/31 "2012-12-06T05:55:16Z")
Last year I had multiple conversations with a nearby police department armor who was assembling short-barreled AR-15s that could be carried by motorcycle units in their saddle bags. They were working on getting them in full-auto, but he said the paperwork to do so was rather involved. Not seen him for a long time, and so I don’t know how it all turned out. IRRC he didn’t think it was worth the hassle to get them in full-auto, but it’s what the brass wanted. ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Matata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Matata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Matata)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-issued-machine-guns/643112/32 "2012-12-06T06:29:52Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > I can only state what my department has. I can not pretend to be an expert on what everyone has. Most of our officers carry a .45 pistol and a shotgun in the car. That’s it. Those officers in the ESU team also have M16s. They are military surplus that have been converted to only semi-auto. They also have fully auto sub machine guns (9mm). Another data point, from a sheriff’s department in rural-ish Georgia: My husband carries a .45, has a 12-gauge in the car, and recently qualified at the range so that he could carry his AR-15 in the trunk. His department doesn’t have a SWAT team, and typically has only 5-7 officers on patrol in a 500-square-mile county, which is why he opted to provide his own rifle - some parts of the county are so isolated that backup might be 15-20 minutes away, and the county has become Meth Central, so more fire power makes sense. He didn’t carry the rifle when he worked for a more urban department, because backup - including SWAT - was always close by. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-issued-machine-guns/643112/33 "2012-12-06T10:08:57Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Gendarmes are not police, though. They’re a [gendarmerie](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gendarmerie) - a paramilitary force charged with policing duties. It’s concept that doesn’t exist in the U.S., which is probably why you find ordinary police departments with military-style equipment. Indeed, administratively the French Gendarmerie Nationale is part of the military and their equipment goes far beyond automatic weapons; they have mortars and armored vehicles with 90mm high velocity guns, the [VCB-90](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VBC-90). ---
**Author:** ![Hermitian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hermitian/32/470_2.png) [@Hermitian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hermitian)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-issued-machine-guns/643112/34 "2012-12-06T14:16:49Z")
> [@magnusblitz](#): > > I was on a BART train (SF Bay Area’s light rail system) once that got stopped a station for a quick run-through by cops who were looking for someone. One of the cops (not sure if it was BART police or local police) had a belt-fed machine gun with the belt lapped around his neck like a bandolier. Utterly baffling. Belt-fed macine guns - When you absolutely, positively got to kill every [del]@#$&\*[/del] suspect/commuter in the [del]room[/del] railcar, accept no substitutes. ---
**Author:** ![glaeken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@glaeken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glaeken)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-issued-machine-guns/643112/35 "2012-12-06T14:23:38Z")
> [@sidecar\_jon](#): > > In the Uk i think they only coppers who openly machine guns are at airports..i guess they might need to kill a lot of people quickly. I remember when they introduced MP5’s for UK police and they made a big deal about them being modified for semi auto only. So although they may look like “machine guns” to some they are not capable of full auto. They also carry them in central London. I work near a big police station in Charing Cross and regularly see police patrolling with MP5’s ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-issued-machine-guns/643112/36 "2012-12-06T14:25:30Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Gendarmes are not police, though. They’re a [gendarmerie](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gendarmerie) - a paramilitary force charged with policing duties. It’s concept that doesn’t exist in the U.S., which is probably why you find ordinary police departments with military-style equipment. Strictly speaking, there may no longer be an organization that functions as such in the US, but the concept exists. The Texas Rangers are still around and they functioned as a paramilitary both during the republic era and after Texas became a state. The Arizona Rangers, in their original early 20th century incarnation, were patterned directly after the Texas Rangers, so one might make a case that they were also a gendarmerie. Perhaps more interestingly, [this wikipedia article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_gendarmeries) lists the US Coast Guard as a gendarmerie. ---
**Author:** ![Floater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dc4da7/32.png) [@Floater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Floater)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-issued-machine-guns/643112/37 "2012-12-06T14:26:29Z")
Do all British police officers have weapon training although they don’t carry weapons as a rule? ---
**Author:** ![glaeken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@glaeken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glaeken)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-issued-machine-guns/643112/38 "2012-12-06T14:40:00Z")
As I understand it only certain officers get weapons training. It’s sort of a specialist role within the UK police. They tend to have armed patrol cars they can call on if an armed response is needed and the majority of police don’t require weapons training as they have specialists available for any armed response type situation. I do seem to remember that any police officer can apply for weapons training but that does not mean they will actually get put into a role where they would be issued a gun. They would have to move into such a specialist role as well as have the training. ---
**Author:** ![solosam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@solosam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solosam)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-issued-machine-guns/643112/39 "2012-12-06T15:31:47Z")
If I had to assault the Branch Davidian compound I would want the M113 / .50 cal combo. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-issued-machine-guns/643112/40 "2012-12-06T16:02:53Z")
> [@solosam](#): > > If I had to assault the Branch Davidian compound I would want the M113 / .50 cal combo. Hell, I’d want an Abrams! As to the British police, if I were in charge, I’d have _all_ officers trained in firearms, with periodic refreshers, even if they didn’t routinely carry guns. You never know when they might have to… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-issued-machine-guns/643112.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-issued-machine-guns/643112.md?page=3)